Do we really need game modes?

[Wjolcz]

On 24/09/2016 at 11:40 PM, Waxing_Kibbous said:

The latest 1.2 release, between the settings and cheat menu, now offers a pretty incredible amount of options to play how you want to play. It's not exactly what the OP is stating, but gosh darn if it isn't what people have been asking for since at least as long as I've been playing.

It doesn't allow for ignoring the science points though. You still need them to "progress".

Frankly, this is the only thread still giving me hope that someday I will be able to play the career the way I want.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

12 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

It doesn't allow for ignoring the science points though. You still need them to "progress".

Frankly, this is the only thread still giving me hope that someday I will be able to play the career the way I want.

Take a look at the cheat menu >cheats [Maximum: Technology] This unlocks the entire tech tree

Want to play science mode but want to still level up crew? You can do that now too.

The options available to a player in 1.2 cover a pretty big combination of scenarios, it's great

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Waxing_Kibbous

[Wjolcz]

1 hour ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

Take a look at the cheat menu >cheats [Maximum: Technology] This unlocks the entire tech tree

Want to play science mode but want to still level up crew? You can do that now too.

The options available to a player in 1.2 cover a pretty big combination of scenarios, it's great

 

Oh, yeah thanks for that. Max tech. Great to know. Really. I didn't want to progress or anything, right? Who needs sane research anyway?

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, Veeltch said:

Oh, yeah thanks for that. Max tech. Great to know. Really. I didn't want to progress or anything, right? Who needs sane research anyway?

I don't think I've seen a proposal in this thread to add *new* things, just unlock all the current ones so you can toggle them on or off. Are you suggesting a toggle to use money instead of science to unlock tech tree nodes? Or maybe even rep? If so, I wholeheartedly support the idea.

[monstah]

3 hours ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

Take a look at the cheat menu >cheats [Maximum: Technology] This unlocks the entire tech tree

Want to play science mode but want to still level up crew? You can do that now too.

The options available to a player in 1.2 cover a pretty big combination of scenarios, it's great

 

 

2 hours ago, Veeltch said:

Oh, yeah thanks for that. Max tech. Great to know. Really. I didn't want to progress or anything, right? Who needs sane research anyway?

Clarifying on my buddy's sarcasm, what he means is that there is no way to set up (in stock) a different progression for parts, not related to science points. Like, for example, buy-and-wait, that may sound dumb but makes sense when (a lot of currently inexistent) other features complement it to make time a sensible resource. I'd like to see that too; I've played with different mod combinations but haven't yet achieved a satisfactory time-as-resource feeling.

Anyway, on the original topic, I agree with @Vanamonde, the all the different game "modes" could be encompassed in a better modular settings system with defaults, which is more like the LEGO mentality of KSP rocket-building.

[Wjolcz]

8 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I don't think I've seen a proposal in this thread to add *new* things, just unlock all the current ones so you can toggle them on or off. Are you suggesting a toggle to use money instead of science to unlock tech tree nodes? Or maybe even rep? If so, I wholeheartedly support the idea.

Yes. Basically have sci, rep and funds togglable, pick what kind of currency you want to use to unlock the tech tree, pick what kind of currency you want to get for performing science experiments.

People that like to play the current science-to-tech career would still have an option to do so and others (me included) would forget about one or two of the resources and still progress in their own way.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

7 minutes ago, monstah said:

 

Clarifying on my buddy's sarcasm, what he means is that there is no way to set up (in stock) a different progression for parts, not related to science points

Even with the tree unlocked from the cheat menu, if you have the setting checked to pay to unlock parts you can then use money to progress your game instead. I'll let you guys figure out the money balancing part, but I'd guess it has something to do with the funds sliders in the career setup. Regarding time as a gameplay element, that's another can of worms, but I do believe the general consensus is that time as a game factor is pointless due to timewarp.

[Wjolcz]

11 minutes ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

Even with the tree unlocked from the cheat menu, if you have the setting checked to pay to unlock parts you can then use money to progress your game instead. I'll let you guys figure out the money balancing part, but I'd guess it has something to do with the funds sliders in the career setup. Regarding time as a gameplay element, that's another can of worms, but I do believe the general consensus is that time as a game factor is pointless due to timewarp.

I tend to treat the proposed time-based mechanics as something that happens by the way of warping. I found myself many times looking at one of my probes entering Jool SOI and thinking "Should I warp until the periapsis? It'll take a few days. Kinda wish something useful was happening during that warp".

The other problem is: there's no punishments for excessive warp in KSP. I'm not saying there should be, but real space agencies don't just sit on their butt watching the main engineer putting together that one engine and testing it. They do stuff. And it's meaningful. I would love to have that feeling of actual achievement where I tell the R&D crew "I need this, this and that for my next mission. Make it happen before I get back from the Mun and earn ourselves some respect for getting there first just so we seem meaningful and keep the funding coming".

Edited September 26, 2016 by Veeltch

[Pthigrivi]

Devil's advocacy, there may be a point at which all these toggles and sliders become a bit of a crutch. It seems like the right thing to do to give everyone all the little buttons and doohickeys to make the game exactly what they want (and maybe it is!) but there's also the possibility that the play experience becomes so fractured that the game becomes very difficult to balance and support generally. I guess what it is is Im totally cool with all these things having toggles, but there still needs to be a really strong focus on making regular old default normal career mode a really strong, thoroughly balanced and elegant play experience. Give people options, sure, but spend most of your time getting the one thing right. I think this just means 2 game modes, Sandbox, which could have a million toggles for everything, and Career, which would be a carefully designed and well calibrated experience for most players. 

I'd also just really encourage people who have been away from career for a while to just give it a shot when 1.2 comes out. Some of the changes around career, making it so you can collect data without climbing out of the pod and being able to level up kerbals in flight with science labs and use transmitters and a more reliable Explore contract tree have made such a huge difference. I've been playing on normal with most of the physics difficulty toggles on and its actually proved to be a really smooth, nice progression. 

 

[Superfluous J]

7 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I'd also just really encourage people who have been away from career for a while to just give it a shot when 1.2 comes out. Some of the changes around career, making it so you can collect data without climbing out of the pod and being able to level up kerbals in flight with science labs and use transmitters and a more reliable Explore contract tree have made such a huge difference. I've been playing on normal with most of the physics difficulty toggles on and its actually proved to be a really smooth, nice progression.

I agree with this, though the Jr and Goo still require an EVA to reset, and the whole thing is still too clicky for me. I just this past weekend used a biome-capable probe to scout out Minmus and plop down waypoints, and then landed in each with a science lander. Before, I'd have referred to KerbalMaps or something else. It's very nice to have that information in-game.

[Pthigrivi]

Just now, 5thHorseman said:

I agree with this, though the Jr and Goo still require an EVA to reset, and the whole thing is still too clicky for me. 

I thought I remember that with a scientist on board you didn't need to? I'll have to double check that. I do agree its not quite there yet but its a BIG improvement so far. 

[Superfluous J]

4 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I thought I remember that with a scientist on board you didn't need to? I'll have to double check that. I do agree its not quite there yet but its a BIG improvement so far. 

Regardless of scientist on board or not, you can transfer to the new Science Box without the warning.

Regardless of if you use a scientist to or not, you get the 'Only a scientist can reset this!' warning when you manually remove science.

KSP may be inconsistent, but at least it is consistently inconsistent

You do though need a scientist to reset the containers, on EVA, and standing less than 0.00001 millimeters (or so it seems) away. If this is not true, please describe to me in detail how to do it because I thought I tried everything.

[Higgs]

Id love to gather science in a normal sandbox, but as far as career goes, imho its soo poorly done as to be irreparably flawed as is. Needs major overhauls and a cohesive coherent story

[Pthigrivi]

14 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

You do though need a scientist to reset the containers, on EVA, and standing less than 0.00001 millimeters (or so it seems) away. If this is not true, please describe to me in detail how to do it because I thought I tried everything.

Oh gosh you're right. I must have been hallucinating? Or I'd just "reset" it instead of "restoring" it. Not sure. Its a new career for me and I've been playing around with probes mostly. But yeah you should totally be able to restore them without getting out of pod!

Edited September 27, 2016 by Pthigrivi

[Tw1]

On 21/09/2016 at 9:02 AM, luizopiloto said:

I only play sandbox...
And in my humble opinion, Squad's only error was the creation of the actual career mode instead of multiplayer mode...

IMHO, it was creating a career so shallow, rather than one intended to give the experience of being a space agency... rewards for hitting trigger events, not actually achieving spacey things.

 

I also think non-mode might be a better approach, as but it might make balancing game stuff hard? 

[Wjolcz]

6 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Devil's advocacy, there may be a point at which all these toggles and sliders become a bit of a crutch. It seems like the right thing to do to give everyone all the little buttons and doohickeys to make the game exactly what they want (and maybe it is!) but there's also the possibility that the play experience becomes so fractured that the game becomes very difficult to balance and support generally.

Why do you think that? Balancing wouldn't be a problem, because the presets would be the same things we have now: sandbox, science mode, career easy, career medium, career hard. The rest would simply be the advanced options for players that already know what does what (just like it is now except with more sliders and options in that tab).

The other way balance it (in case devs want to include more presets) would be to simply ask us, the players, to find the sweet spot with every "mode" (or rather preset). I would happily find that sweet spot for my idea of scienceless career if only I was offered the options to do so. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Veeltch

[nightingale]

9 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I don't think I've seen a proposal in this thread to add *new* things, just unlock all the current ones so you can toggle them on or off. Are you suggesting a toggle to use money instead of science to unlock tech tree nodes? Or maybe even rep? If so, I wholeheartedly support the idea.

Actually that could be accomplished with a 5 line strategy config.  The R&D UI isn't set up to handle alternate currencies though - so it probably wouldn't show the correct costs.

[Superfluous J]

8 minutes ago, nightingale said:

Actually that could be accomplished with a 5 line strategy config.  The R&D UI isn't set up to handle alternate currencies though - so it probably wouldn't show the correct costs.

For Strategia or for stock? I just checked the most recent (well one build back as I'm on limited data right now) stock strategies.cfg and I see only 4 EFFECTs, CurrencyConverter (convert one currency into another directly), CurrencyExchanger (lower one's return to raise another's), CurrencyOperation (modify a currency return), and ValueModifier (change what something is worth). I don't see how you could use any of those to change R&D to accept cash instead of science.

Though I see there's a test file there as well, with 3 other EFFECTS. ModifyFunds, ModifyScience, and ModifyReputation. Though I don't see quite what they do.

[nightingale]

6 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

For Strategia or for stock? I just checked the most recent (well one build back as I'm on limited data right now) stock strategies.cfg and I see only 4 EFFECTs, CurrencyConverter (convert one currency into another directly), CurrencyExchanger (lower one's return to raise another's), CurrencyOperation (modify a currency return), and ValueModifier (change what something is worth). I don't see how you could use any of those to change R&D to accept cash instead of science.

All stock.  The text may not read in a completely sane way, and I assume the R&D GUI won't show the right stuff, but this should do it:

  EFFECT
  {
    name = CurrencyConverter
    input = Science
	output = Funds
	minShare = 1.0
	maxShare = 1.0
	
	minRate = 100
	maxRate = 100
	
	// ignore income from recovery, because funds recovered were ours to begin with, therefore not income
	AffectReasons = RnDTechResearch
	
	effectDescription = from research costs
  }

6 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Though I see there's a test file there as well, with 3 other EFFECTS. ModifyFunds, ModifyScience, and ModifyReputation. Though I don't see quite what they do.

Not sure if those are stock (or if they are, they are leftover from something old, because I don't see those anywhere).

[Wjolcz]

Wowowowwoow, will that let research the tech nodes with funds?

[Superfluous J]

On 9/27/2016 at 9:46 AM, nightingale said:

All stock.  The text may not read in a completely sane way, and I assume the R&D GUI won't show the right stuff, but this should do it:

  EFFECT
  {
    name = CurrencyConverter
    input = Science
	output = Funds
	minShare = 1.0
	maxShare = 1.0
	
	minRate = 100
	maxRate = 100
	
	// ignore income from recovery, because funds recovered were ours to begin with, therefore not income
	AffectReasons = RnDTechResearch
	
	effectDescription = from research costs
  }

 

Yeah that technically works, but the display only shows 0 science and no funds. Also, it doesn't respect an unchecked "allow negative funds" checkbox, and it sends funds negative.

Also, it eliminates the need to upgrade R&D because everything costs 0 science

None of this really needs "fixed" per se, I was mostly just curious.

[nightingale]

16 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Yeah that technically works, but the display only shows 0 science and no funds. Also, it doesn't respect an unchecked "allow negative funds" checkbox, and it sends funds negative.

Also, it eliminates the need to upgrade R&D because everything costs 0 science

None of this really needs "fixed" per se, I was mostly just curious.

All of this should be fixed for the next pre-release - because they're limitations that really made life difficult while doing Strategia, and doing so should open up lots of modding options (want to use reputation to upgrade buildings? Go for it!)

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, nightingale said:

All of this should be fixed for the next pre-release - because they're limitations that really made life difficult while doing Strategia, and doing so should open up lots of modding options (want to use reputation to upgrade buildings? Go for it!)

DROOOLLLOLOLOL.

Sorry.

Ahem.

That sounds cool.

Whatever.

[Kelderek]

I've always wanted something that was somewhere between science and career games.  When I play a science game I wish I could upgrade buildings because I think that's a fun challenge to work within those limitations.  I've often wondered if we could upgrade buildings using science points in a science game how that would be.  I like contracts on occasion, but I hate having to rely on them as my only source of funds -- this is why I always upgrade the admin building to tier 2 asap and grab the  "Leadership Initiative" strategy at 60%, using funds from milestones better fits my play style.  I still like having contracts though because they might align with what I was already wanting to do anyway -- planning to go land on the Mun?, then grab a contract to put a surface base there.  At the same time it is nice to be able to go somewhere even if you have no contracts and know you won't come away empty-handed.

Anything that gives us more control to play the way we want gets my vote.

[ottothesilent]

I'd enjoy being able to launch a sandbox game, and select only the tech tree nodes that I want. I could simulate a career mode, without funds restrictions, or just make missions more difficult.