[1.8 - 1.9.x] Nehemia Engineering Orbital Science (NEOS) (0.9.1)

[KSPrynk]

@micha, I'm having an issue with Kemini on the SoyJuice suite of parts from HGR.  From the .cfg file, it looks like the experiments are loaded and stored in the SoyJuice command pod, but the experiment is meant to be run from an attached orbital module, like the Onion, as long as there's a Kerbal in that module.

I'm able to load and run an experiment (the PAW button shows up on the command module), and then end it (the PAW button, and lab time shows up in the orbital module), but I can't finalize it, nor start a new experiment.  On the orbital module, it'll say "Kemini Lab: [experiment name]: Finished.

Am I missing a step somewhere?  Is the Finalize function meant to operate on the part running the experiment or the one storing it?

I'm running KSP 1.8.1 and HGR Community Fixes version 1.7.0.  I've tried this with both the green and white variants of both the command (SoyJuice) and round (Onion) orbital modules.

EDIT: I understand the cleverness that's trying to be accomplished by running science in an orbital module, but if this is an unresolveable logical conflict, it may merit keeping the experiment-running function in the command module, like the other craft do.

Edited June 9, 2020 by KSPrynk

[micha]

22 hours ago, KSPrynk said:

Am I missing a step somewhere?  Is the Finalize function meant to operate on the part running the experiment or the one storing it?

Finalize is on the module storing the experiment.  But you are right, there should be a "Move" action once the experiment has been "Finished" so yes, Kemini is currently broken with the SoyJuice pods.  This is ultimately my fault - many years ago I asked Nehemiah to simplify the way Kemini experiments are being run as back then I didn't know about HGR.
A "quick fix" for yourself is to move the Kemini lab into the SoyJuice for now (simple config file edit). For the proper fix i need to adjust the code so that it works "correctly" for Soyuz-style capsules.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 2:03 AM, KSPrynk said:

That said, is there a reason that the Material Exposure Platform is a whopping 8 tons when the Kolumbus, nearly three times its size, is only 3 tons (comparable to Stock MPL)?  Did a decimal point get lost, because 0.8 tons makes more sense.

The MEP includes all the machinery for the robot arm and platform.  Kolumbus is just an empty shell - you need to launch the lab equipment separately which overall will make it heavier.  That said I'm happy to adjust the figures, I barely touched them from what Nehemiah originally specified.

On 6/9/2020 at 2:03 AM, KSPrynk said:

Also, what is the difference between the KEES POSA I and II, aside from the massive amount of science the POSA II can collect?  Except for being a level higher in the tech tree, it has pretty much the same physical and monetary costs.

None really, just different materials being exposed (you can read up about the actual experiments which were flown).  But yeah, should probably give roughly the same amount of science..  again, happy to adjust the values based on feedback. 

Always good to have a new player come along and consider balancing things out a bit more.

[KSPrynk]

48 minutes ago, micha said:

None really, just different materials being exposed (you can read up about the actual experiments which were flown).  But yeah, should probably give roughly the same amount of science..  again, happy to adjust the values based on feedback. 

Always good to have a new player come along and consider balancing things out a bit more.

Thanks.  I got a sense of how Kemini_module and StoreExperiments worked once I figured out why the SoyJuice descent and orbital part cfgs had only one or the other, but every other craft had both.

Regarding game balance, I'm trying to reserve judgement until I start a new career (waiting for KSP 1.10 and Kopernicus) and try it out, but the 2nd level KEES and Life Science experiments have huge science defs, which, at first glance, look like they become tech tree sweepers when the multipliers from further planets come into play.  Part of me says these types of experiments would, in reality, not be significantly different just by changing locales.  I noted further upthread a discussion about limiting KEES (and maybe the rest?) to just Kerbin SOI use.  OTOH, I do recognize that getting these unique experiments up, assembled, and more importantly, back down, adds a layer of complexity that would be incentivized by a high science payoff.  Still, that's a lot of science....   

[micha]

1 minute ago, KSPrynk said:

Still, that's a lot of science....   

You generally have this problem as you add mods with additional science experiments.  The core game is "balanced" against just the stock experiments after all.

To mitigate this you can use a tech tree which adds more expensive nodes, and/or adjust the science multiplier in your game.

But as I said, I'm happy to take feedback and adjust values to try to make the game more balanced   TBH it's been a very long time since I actually just sat down and played KSP; mostly it's been coding/testing.  Which I enjoy, but it means I only get a limited view of the overall gameplay these days.

[micha]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:20 AM, OrbitalManeuvers said:

@micha Just getting started checking this out, but thought I'd mention a couple other command pods that you may or may not be interested in supporting ...

Thanks, I had a look and IMHO the Luciole is too small.  As for the BumbleBee,  the experiments won't work without a crew to run them.

It's easy enough for you to add a MooduleManager patch yourself if you want the Luciole pod to have experiments; just copy one of the existing configs.

[micha]

Release 0.9.1; various fixes including the reported issue with Kemnini on SoyJuice pods.

Also significantly nerfed all science output from this mod.

[SuppaTenko]

9 hours ago, micha said:

Also significantly nerfed all science output from this mod.

Cool! Just when I decided to edit configs for the same resaon! Thank you!

[micha]

8 minutes ago, SuppaTenko said:

Cool! Just when I decided to edit configs for the same resaon! Thank you!

Just as a hint, instead of editing config files for mods, use ModuleManager - that way when you update your mods, your personal changes won't be overwritten.

Can you please share your proposed values with me and/or comment on my new ones?

[KSPrynk]

@micha, the Kemini HGR fixes look great.  At some point, you may want to update the OP instructions and/or KSPedia to explain the "move" function when the experiment storage location and lab are in separate parts (which I assume only applies to the HGR SoyJuice family).  I got it on the second try.  The first time, I think I did a sequence that led to a logical dead end that closed up behind me, but I haven't been able to replicate it since.

[micha]

1 hour ago, KSPrynk said:

@micha, the Kemini HGR fixes look great.  At some point, you may want to update the OP instructions and/or KSPedia to explain the "move" function when the experiment storage location and lab are in separate parts (which I assume only applies to the HGR SoyJuice family).  I got it on the second try.  The first time, I think I did a sequence that led to a logical dead end that closed up behind me, but I haven't been able to replicate it since.

Thanks! And I know. 

Tweaking code is quick, updating the KSPaedia takes a lot of time. Especially since I need to get the new Unity and work out how to use it. Likely the procedure to make KSPaedia entries has changed too.  So figured fixing the actual bugs was more important for now than updating the documents.  I've got a major UI change in the works for which all the docs need updating again anyway...  I'm happy someone actually looked at the KSPaedia though! Seems it wasn't all wasted time

As for HGR SoyJuice, possibly. I really ought to have a look and see what, if any, other Soyuz mods are available. 

It's a real shame that Making History only added a Vostok analogue, but not the Soyuz which is the far more important spacecraft historically. And you don't get fairings to launch either the Vostok nor the Sputnik analogues at the start of the game when you actually might use them so they are pretty much useless anyway. Bit of a shame. But I guess growing up in America (the continent, not the country) means being more familiar with the US space program and hence the heavy influence it had on the game.  Still, a shame that that hasn't been fixed in the meantime.

[SuppaTenko]

2 hours ago, micha said:

Just as a hint, instead of editing config files for mods, use ModuleManager - that way when you update your mods, your personal changes won't be overwritten.

Can you please share your proposed values with me and/or comment on my new ones?

Well, the main reason to mess with NEOS was KEES experiments. I have several orbital science mods installed - NEOS, Station Science Continued and WildBlueIndustries M.O.L.E.
MOLE and SSC has pretty average and more stock-ish science values. I also have tones of parts mods and other science mods installed and use Community Tech Tree. But KEES 'kills' challenge for me a bit. You know, POSA-II had BV=160 and ODC had 190. Low Mun orbit and Low Minmus orbit for these two experiments alone somehow allowed me to have some advanced PorkJet's atomic rockets before my first Mun landing. Too fast for me.

Current values for KEES and other NEOS experiments are fine for me. But I will try to do some things anyway:

1) I will try to tune KEES exposure time - I see something like 1 month exposure more realistic for me because I tend to use KEES parts as early-game light space station resupply missions payload. WBI's MOLE helps me with it because it has 1.8m station parts. So, I also want KEES experiments to be on the same time scale as WBI's LDEF experiments.
2) I will also increase KEES science BV - something like "current BV x 1,3...1,5" should do the trick - longer exposure time means more science gain.
3) I will tune up SSC science values a bit - this mod is interesting, but not very rewarding. but this is not about NEOS, so it doesn't matter here =)

As I said before - all other values from newest version are OK. But I have one suggestion based on my first step.
Maybe it will be good idea to add something like 'Kerbal Long-term Exposure Study (KLES)' with bigger and heavier sample pannels (2,5x2,5m) specialy for long-term spacestation use or planet-to-planet transfers? You can add some special gimmicks here. For example:
- exposure study lasts for two month
- you need to perform EVAs every two weeks to clean pannel from space dust, engine emissions, RCS fuel remains etc. If not - research will stop until you do so. It's linked to Kerbal Alarm Clock.
- EVA team should have at least one Scientist and one Engineer. Engineer needs special KIS tool.
- Scientist's job is to 'lock' experiment panel before cleaning and to make it ready to procedure. He can also do other jobs here - add organic 'food' for bio-samples exposure experiment. Or replace broken panel segments for material-samples or something like that. Every action spends station resources - it can be 'Research kits' like in LDEF or something completely else.
- Engineer's job is to clean experiment panel with special single KIS tool or resource.
- If Engineer cleans non-prepared experiment panel - experiment halts. Because engineer ruined it without scientist.
- Exposure panel and panel frame are big and heavy. You will need 2,5m-sized transport ship or shuttle to bring it to your station. You will also need 2-3 kerbals to install it.
- Experiment is long and hard to maintain, but has 150-200 basic science value.
Something like this =)

[KSPrynk]

@micha, @SuppaTenko, going back to some discussion a while back about limiting experiments to Kerbin SOI, I was thinking about what experiments shouldn't have different results (and increasing science return) based on what body you're orbiting.  Microgravity material and life science experiments that aren't particularly influenced by local space radiation or magnetic fields come to mind.

Picking through the science defs from NEOS got me interested in how they're defined in the KSP wiki, and ways to constrain where a experiment can be performed.  I use DMagic Orbital Science and SCANsat and some of those parts get clever in defining discrete altitude bands where they can be used (which I have to pick through to figure out how).

One thing I haven't come across so far is a way of allotting science points without any multipliers for the body being orbited, and constraining it to only be performed once (or with diminishing returns) anywhere within the solar system.  I think this would be appropriate for some of the really high payoff experiments, to prevent a tech tree sweeping situation similar to what SuppaTenko described, by running them across Mun and Minmus orbits.

Edited June 11, 2020 by KSPrynk

[Brigadier]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:04 PM, SuppaTenko said:

You can add some special gimmicks here. For example:
- exposure study lasts for two month
- you need to perform EVAs every two weeks to clean pannel from space dust, engine emissions, RCS fuel remains etc. If not - research will stop until you do so. It's linked to Kerbal Alarm Clock.
- EVA team should have at least one Scientist and one Engineer. Engineer needs special KIS tool.
- Scientist's job is to 'lock' experiment panel before cleaning and to make it ready to procedure. He can also do other jobs here - add organic 'food' for bio-samples exposure experiment. Or replace broken panel segments for material-samples or something like that. Every action spends station resources - it can be 'Research kits' like in LDEF or something completely else.
- Engineer's job is to clean experiment panel with special single KIS tool or resource.
- If Engineer cleans non-prepared experiment panel - experiment halts. Because engineer ruined it without scientist.
- Exposure panel and panel frame are big and heavy. You will need 2,5m-sized transport ship or shuttle to bring it to your station. You will also need 2-3 kerbals to install it.
- Experiment is long and hard to maintain, but has 150-200 basic science value.
Something like this =)

In my opinion this is micromanagement overkill.  That said, I can appreciate different play styles for different folks,.  At best this level of detail for a single experiment should be a user option and not fixed.

[SuppaTenko]

1 hour ago, Brigadier said:

In my opinion this is micromanagement overkill.  That said, I can appreciate different play styles for different folks,.  At best this level of detail for a single experiment should be a user option and not fixed.

Understandable. I never said that it should be like this for everyone. In fact, I will be happy with just some more experiments =)

[Dodge]

Now that the 1.11 supports in orbit assemble and inventory system, would this mod upgrade to eliminate KIS dependency?

[Stone Blue]

2 hours ago, Dodge said:

Now that the 1.11 supports in orbit assemble and inventory system, would this mod upgrade to eliminate KIS dependency?

I hope NOT...
Just because Stock has its own system, KAS/KIS are still relevant, and many people (I hope) still use/depend on them.

On that note, I'm pretty sure all this mod would need to work with the stock system is a couple MM patches: One to add the stock cargo part module to the parts, and possibly one needed to disable KIS/KAS, if users prefer to use the new stock system.

[micha]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:28 AM, Stone Blue said:

I hope NOT...
Just because Stock has its own system, KAS/KIS are still relevant, and many people (I hope) still use/depend on them.

On that note, I'm pretty sure all this mod would need to work with the stock system is a couple MM patches: One to add the stock cargo part module to the parts, and possibly one needed to disable KIS/KAS, if users prefer to use the new stock system.

I'm not sure it's possible but it's something I want to look into once I get some spare time again. It's the way the KEES experiments are mounted on the experiment holder which doesn't require tools or an engineer which I don't think is doable in stock.

It was always Nehemia's plan to remove KIS/KAS dependency eventually.  While I love KIS/KAS myself, having mod dependencies is something to avoid wherever possible.

[Stone Blue]

12 minutes ago, micha said:

It was always Nehemia's plan to remove KIS/KAS dependency eventually.  While I love KIS/KAS myself, having mod dependencies is something to avoid wherever possible.

I agree... I guess I should have clarified in my post... I hope the *option, of KIS/KAS support*, does not get removed...
If you *can* get this to work with the stock inventory, and still have support for either/or stock & KIS/KAS, then you would probably be able to remove KIS/KAS as hard dependencies, and just consider them moved to the "Supported/Recommended" mods catagory

Edited March 21, 2021 by Stone Blue

[mattssheep4]

With 1.12 and KAC being implemented as stock, I don't expect it to be too difficult to convert to using the stock system since it's basically the same code, so looking forward to that update I know  you're busy so no pressure!

[micha]

On 7/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, mattssheep4 said:

With 1.12 and KAC being implemented as stock, I don't expect it to be too difficult to convert to using the stock system since it's basically the same code, so looking forward to that update I know  you're busy so no pressure!

One big issue is that KAC has an existing Science Alarm.

The Stock Alarm Clock does not. It does have a custom-alarm-plugin system which is great and would allow for it, but I want to collaborate with other science-mod authors so that we have a single science-alarm type, not half a dozen.

And yes, it's on my growing list of TODO's for this mod   Unfortunately due to the size and complexity I haven't really touched it in a while. And the fact that it still seems to work just fine..

[Supersonic Rocketship]

I'm having some trouble doing experiments with MSL-1000. I ran some experiments with the MEP-825 with no trouble at all, I was able to stow them in the same container I launched them in and then recover the science. 

However, when I tried to do the same with experiments involving the MSL-1000 by right clicking the MSL or the OMS ESC 3 (haven't tried the 600 yet, still need to recruit more sacrifices crew), the experiments won't show up on the right-click menu. 

Kerbal version 1.8.1, I downloaded the corresponding version from Ckan.

 

[luna_cat]

Please pardon me, if this has been asked before.

I have a station with 600, 825, and 1000. I've installed all the equipment, and have all the spaces for experiments filled. If I run all the experiments simultaneously, will they take longer to complete?

Thanks.

Edited July 17, 2021 by luna_cat

[micha]

On 7/16/2021 at 1:25 PM, Supersonic Rocketship said:

However, when I tried to do the same with experiments involving the MSL-1000 by right clicking the MSL or the OMS ESC 3 (haven't tried the 600 yet, still need to recruit more sacrifices crew), the experiments won't show up on the right-click menu.

The MEP-825 is "special" in that it has the relevant equipment already installed.

The other Labs are just empty station components, you first have to launch and install the lab equipment before you can install and run the experiments. The current version of NEOS has hard-coded slots for which equipment can be installed into which lab.  I've been meaning to rewrite everything so that you can install equipment into any lab module as long as there's space for it.

On 7/18/2021 at 1:45 AM, luna_cat said:

I have a station with 600, 825, and 1000. I've installed all the equipment, and have all the spaces for experiments filled. If I run all the experiments simultaneously, will they take longer to complete?

To be honest, I can't recall.. I think in the current version, the relevant resources to complete the experiments are generated in the equipment, not in the lab, and since you can only have a single experiment in each equipment at a time, there should not be any time penalty running multiple experiments simultaneously.

[luna_cat]

I'm really enjoying this mod. I think that it really adds value to the game.

There's one thing that it doesn't do, that I'd like. The experiment progress does not show up in the Part Commander mod. In case you are not familiar with it, the PC mod gives you a way to see the part context pop-ups, without having to find, and right-click the part. It's like a menuing system for pop-ups. Every other part that I've encountered in the game works the same in PC, but not this mod. The command buttons are there, and they work as normal, but the progress bars are missing. It's actually just a nice-to-have, because it's not hard to find the three big labs, and right-click on them.

[micha]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:38 AM, luna_cat said:

I'm really enjoying this mod. I think that it really adds value to the game.

Thanks, it's why I took over maintenance since I really love this mod too. It's sadly neglected at the moment since it is quite a large and complex mod and I haven't really had much time, but I hope to get stuck back into it sometime, especially now that we have a "final" version of KSP. That said, AFAIK, it should still work just fine..

 

On 7/24/2021 at 7:38 AM, luna_cat said:

There's one thing that it doesn't do, that I'd like. The experiment progress does not show up in the Part Commander mod. In case you are not familiar with it, the PC mod gives you a way to see the part context pop-ups, without having to find, and right-click the part. It's like a menuing system for pop-ups. Every other part that I've encountered in the game works the same in PC, but not this mod. The command buttons are there, and they work as normal, but the progress bars are missing. It's actually just a nice-to-have, because it's not hard to find the three big labs, and right-click on them.

Hmm, haven't used the PC mod. Hardly surprising that it doesn't work, since the Nehemiah science experiments use their own way of progressing. Now that we have some stock experiments which take longer I wonder if I can recode the underlying plumbing and use the stock science system. Although one thing which this mod does which I don't think would be possible with stock is that it forces you to return the actual science parts back to Kerbin to get the science..  research required