All-Stock Elitism?

[Jestersage]

6 minutes ago, Maximus97 said:

Maybe I haven't been looking too closely, but anything regarding superiority of stock over modded or vice-versa is superfluous. I've used mods before, and technically I still have one or two installed, though I hardly make use of the parts if at all. For the most part, I do consider myself a stock purist because I don't use modded parts to enhance the functionality of my crafts. Maybe KER to do the math for me.

I think that's a problem with "Stock only" is: what defines as stock only? While everyone agree with "using stock parts only" is one, is KER stock? Alarms? Timers? Reuse mods? Visual Mods? Porkjet Parts?

As for the choices of drink, eat, and clothes, sometimes how they eat or drink or clothes and a mere outward sign to the way they think.  In KSP, since it's a single player game, it shouldn't matter, but when people start to interact with each other, no matter how small or large, then all these choices matter. I would like to point out about Payday 2 (another game besieged by stock vs mods, kick vs no kick), until I realized that I can just point to the wall behind me.

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Jestersage

[DoctorDavinci]

3 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

I think that's a problem with "Stock only" is: what defines as stock only? While everyone agree with "using stock parts only" is one, is KER stock? Alarms? Timers? Reuse mods? Visual Mods? Porkjet Parts?

As for the choices of drink, eat, and clothes, sometimes how they eat or drink or clothes and a mere outward sign to the way they think.  In KSP, since it's a single player game, it shouldn't matter, but when people start to interact with each other, no matter how small or large, then all these choices matter. I would like to point out about Payday 2 (another game besieged by stock vs mods, kick vs no kick), until I realized that I can just point to the wall behind me.

 

Just keep pointing at the wall .... your concern over stock vs modded is really a cry for attention

You complain that a 'modded' challenge is inappropriate seeing as that there are those who only go modded yet you also complain in your post above that stock only challenges are an issue as well ... seems like you may want to look within yourself instead of placing blame, for whatever you are trying to get at, on the rest of the community 

[Columbia]

I've been in the Spacecraft Exchange community for a while now, and the only reasons people emphasize being stock is that;

-As a "customer", I would want to download crafts without going through the burden of downloading mods, therefore making it accesible.

-Going stock means representing a challenge to make the most out of a relatively limited loadout, which most people actually see as an important quality.

And a lot of others use a hybrid of stock and modded. Others use stock parts with modded editors (Editor Extensions.)

 

So stock elitism isn't so prevalent as you might think. The anti-Mechjebinists still exist though.

[Vanamonde]

Please do not let a thread about arguments turn into an arguments thread. Also, please do not pull arguments from other threads into this one. 

[XB-70A]

Ellitism? None at all for me. I used to play with a lot of mods (about 70-80 differents folders if my memory still is right) under 1.0.2, then while passing to 1.0.5 I discovered how boring it could be to update them.

Finally I still use some of them like SVE, OPM, even if I know that I will probably never went further than Jool (if I go here one day), MechJeb and Re-entry Particle Effect. About the parts just Cormoran orbiters and the landing legs from SpaceY. 

By making stock-only craft its first of all the insurance to transfert the craft to another version (nearly) without any changes or risks of non-compatibility.

About the sharing its much I like the principle of simplicity behind as nearly eveybody should be able to try it.

Of course there is always a bad part, I think it's the fact that any modded craft of 20-30 parts will mostly require 100-20 in stock...

I'm seeing much more "elitism" in the RO+RSS players, but not as persons who wants to draw all attention on them as "Hey you! Yeah you! Just look at my awesome modded game! And the best? It's full scale and realist, Ah!" but much more as peoples who like new kinds a challenge and love realism. They have chosen a way to play with pleasure, and that is principaly the most important thing for a game.

[Fearless Son]

I tend to play all stock, even when I find it inconvenient, but mostly that comes from a desire to make sure my results could be broadly repeatable without a lot of excessive alteration.  If my stuff works now, it will probably work next version without me having to depend on someone else to update their mod to match.  I do occasionally use some informational mods, like Kerbal Alarm Clock, but I tend to avoid anything that modifies the ships themselves or takes control over for me.  

Actually, it surprised me that anyone considered me "elite" for doing so.  A Steam-friend asked if they could watch me play via a stream, and I said sure.  They were impressed that I could do a Mun landing on my own without mods.  My reaction was, "Huh?"

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

10 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Seriously, this is a problem??? 

Yes, yes it is.

9 hours ago, Jestersage said:

Stock elitism is needed to be honest. If we don't have one then, we should have one now.

What? That doesn't even make any sense!

7 hours ago, XB-70A said:

I'm seeing much more "elitism" in the RO+RSS players, but not as persons who wants to draw all attention on them as "Hey you! Yeah you! Just look at my awesome modded game! And the best? It's full scale and realist, Ah!" but much more as peoples who like new kinds a challenge and love realism. They have chosen a way to play with pleasure, and that is principaly the most important thing for a game.

Yeah, them and the FAR people. I've seen FAR users who can't seem to even understand the concept of using stock aero.

11 hours ago, MrLake said:

This community is easily the most inviting and friendly. Putting users into artificial camps is going to hurt that very badly. Let's let everyone play the game the specific way they want, without trying to call attention to such things that aren't really a problem right now.

Except that it is a problem. It's not artificial sorting, it's just pointing out the group of stock elitists that have sorted themselves into said group. Yes, I can't sentences.

9 hours ago, Columbia said:

So stock elitism isn't so prevalent as you might think. The anti-Mechjebinists still exist though.

So sue me. It's still an issue, though.

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

4 hours ago, Fearless Son said:

Actually, it surprised me that anyone considered me "elite" for doing so.  A Steam-friend asked if they could watch me play via a stream, and I said sure.  They were impressed that I could do a Mun landing on my own without mods.  My reaction was, "Huh?"

Yeah, well that's Steam KSP... mess for you. The Steam KSP forum is for those who only play KSP once in a while. This forum is the real community

[swjr-swis]

4 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

The Steam KSP forum is for those who only play KSP once in a while. This forum is the real community

#StockForumElitism

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[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

Just now, swjr-swis said:

#StockForumElitism

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[KSK]

13 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

There are so many stock craft because that way more people can download it without problems.

This. I thought that was the whole point of flagging up a craft as 'stock'. Not out of any sense of elitism but just to let people know that they can download/use/take inspiration from this craft regardless of what mods they have installed.

As for posting stock challenges - what @Sharpy said. No elitism necessary or implied.

Sheesh.

[Just Jim]

29 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Yes, yes it is.

With all due respect, it sound to me like you're trying to stir up some drama, or a controversy, where one doesn't exist. Who cares if someone is using mods or not? 

[klgraham1013]

Confirmation Bias: The Thread

[Red Iron Crown]

I see just as much modded elitism as stock elitism, if not more. "Game is broken and unplayable without mods" is a common refrain around here, and that implies that anyone who enjoys stock doesn't know what they're doing. Or dogpiling someone who makes a suggestion for the game and doesn't want to use mods to implement it.

Elitism is the problem, not stock vs modded. When people start talking down about how other people play, as if their preferred style is somehow universally more right than someone else's, that's when people get upset.

[Samszee]

we all play KSP and are therefore smarter, stronger and kinder than any other video game community. Foolish FPS players, ridiculous RPGers, don't even get me started on silly strat gamers.  

But in general life I do wish people could take more enjoyment out of seeing someone doing something they clearly love, enjoy and care about, regardless of mods/game/life/whatever. See so much putting others down because they do X or are Y.

Be inspired by others joy and success and create your own. 

 

[Just Jim]

3 minutes ago, Samszee said:

But in general life I do wish people could take more enjoyment out of seeing someone doing something they clearly love, enjoy and care about, regardless of mods/game/life/whatever. See so much putting others down because they do X or are Y.

Be inspired by others joy and success and create your own. 

Exactly!!!   

[monstah]

17 hours ago, Gaarst said:

This is a thing? Never noticed in 2.5 years on the forums.

That's what I thought when I read the thread title.

To me, a STOCK craft means I can have it on any save, regardless of what mods I have. I try to make my crafts as stock as possible even when using mods, myself. 

[KerikBalm]

#1) For spacecraft exchanges.... if its an all stock craft, then anyone that has KSP can download it and it works right away. If its a modded craft, then they need to check the modlist, and if there is a mod they don't want, its useless to them. Stock is the standard, its ... stock. Stock craft are guaranteed to work, and can be tweaked later with modded craft as desired.

#2) Its a standard, its par, its a point of comparison. Some mods do literally add warp drive... Some are rather balanced, some are... in between. Is the atomic rockets pack balanced? The candle radioisotope rocket sure seems to be (underpowered relative to the Ion drive, IMO, but the ion drive is a bit OPd), the LANTERN rocket? seems balanced to me... maybe a bit too powerful since it was made when the LV-N was 2.25 tons and not 3 tons.... The nuclear lightbulb? ok, its got basically the same TWR as the LVN, but better Isp... OPd? What about the nuclear thermal turbojet? It seems rather weak and useless for SSTOs, but for an eve biome hopper, it can't be matched by stock designs

I made a simple electric fan mod with very little impat on memory usage (rescaled goliath). IMO its balanced, but I can't gaurantee that others will agree. You'll never get the community to come to an agreement on which mod is well balanced vs OP, or which parts in a mod are OK vs OP... defer to squad and their stock parts, avoid the argument - hence the use of stock for a lot of the challenges (or pre-defining acceptable mods).

#3) I don't think any of this extends to visual mods or information mods. KER helps design stock ships... it doesn't make the resulting craft not stock and not shareable... you could achieve the same effect with a spreadsheet.

Scatterer/EVE... yea... those just make stock worlds prettier....I think they should be stock, with an option to disable like many other graphics options.

Planetmods: I don't think any of this applies to planetmods either... of course sharing save files is much less common than sharing craft files, so this may be why,

[NSEP]

Idk but i sometimes like stock better than modded and modded better than stock, it depends on my feelings.

[wumpus]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

#1) For spacecraft exchanges.... if its an all stock craft, then anyone that has KSP can download it and it works right away. If its a modded craft, then they need to check the modlist, and if there is a mod they don't want, its useless to them. Stock is the standard, its ... stock. Stock craft are guaranteed to work, and can be tweaked later with modded craft as desired.

#2) Its a standard, its par, its a point of comparison. [rest deleted for brevity]

Even if people who play pure stock are in the minority, don't expect many players to be playing with the exact same set of mods as everyone else.  Even in mods, for spacecraft exchanges you would want to be less dependent on any extra mods.  I would expect that even with something involving as many mods as realism overhaul, that RO spacecraft would strive for spacecraft that work "vanilla RO" over ones that need additional mods piled on.

Then there are the consoles.  Anything that requires a mod isn't going to work with them.

I think it comes down to people wanting to add mods for the experience they want and don't want to add mods (and all the stability issues that come with it) to try somebody else's rocket.  Things get worse if the mods aren't updated, you hardly want to be stuck in a previous version because *somebody else's* required mod wasn't updated.  Of course, this can be true in stock as well: I'm pretty sure none of my pre-release rockets can fly at all.

[samstarman5]

I have used mods in the past but these days I am all stock. However, I love developers and publishers who support modding, as it does inspire folks to get creative on their own beyond just the game mechanics.

If there is one thing that does kinda get my ire up, is those modders who feel the game is useless without certain mods. ("You can't even complete the game without ModXYZ")  Modsnobs, as it were.

But KSP is a single player game that has an entire menu for cheat options(which I have also employed on the rare occasion).  I wouldn't worry about Stocksnoots or Modsnobs. If you don't relate to either, then their opinion shouldn't really matter much to you. Play KSP as you may.

[Red Iron Crown]

1 hour ago, samstarman5 said:

Stocksnoots or Modsnobs

Filing this terminology away for future use.

[Raptor9]

On 12/18/2016 at 2:17 AM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

I see all of these threads, especially in the Spacecraft Exchange, with (STOCK!) in the title, and I think "why?! what's wrong with mods, which make the game better!?"

First of all, people that advertise "STOCK" in the title are not elitists, I imagine most of them (myself included) try to stick to stock for one or both of two reasons:
1) When KSP is updated, the player doesn't have to wait for his favorate mods to be updated to resume the game or dive back in with their existing craft file designs.
2) If they post a lot of craft for other users (which by the way is the entire point of the "Spacecraft Exchange" subforum), they're probably trying to make the craft accessible to as many people as possible, to include inexperienced players that may not be familiar with what mods are out there.

On 12/18/2016 at 2:17 AM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

We should be aware of all-stock elitism where all-stock players think they're "better" than modded players, even the ones who play with RemoteTech and/or RO and the like.

You're grouping a large portion of the player-base into a generalization that you perceive.  As a stock-only player, in no way do I think I'm better than any other KSP player, and I find your OP insulting.

On 12/18/2016 at 2:17 AM, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Who thinks this is a problem? Why does it exist? How can we stop it without being rude?

It's not a problem.  This is a video game.  Stop taking it so seriously...ironically, your OP is as rude as the "elitist" mentality that you're posting about. 

EDIT: I imagine this thread is probably a good candidate to be locked by a moderator soon.  IMO, nothing can come from this but arguments and mud-slinging.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Raptor9

[regex]

31 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

EDIT: I imagine this thread is probably a good candidate to be locked by a moderator soon.  IMO, nothing can come from this but arguments and mud-slinging.

That moment when you realize three moderators have already posted in this thread on the topic and things were fairly civil.

[MaxxQ]

14 hours ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Yeah, well that's Steam KSP... mess for you. The Steam KSP forum is for those who only play KSP once in a while. This forum is the real community

 

14 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

#StockForumElitism

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14 hours ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

?

You don't see the irony?

You have started a thread with the premise that elitism exists and shouldn't be allowed, and yet, you are showing an elitist attitude by saying that THIS forum is better than the Steam forums.

What you don't seem to understand is that elitism exists in everything - somebody ALWAYS thinks something they do, or have, or read, or listen to, or watch, or play is better than something someone else does, haves, reads, listens to, watches, or plays.  And those who don't agree call them elitists, snobs, or whatever.

That said, the only reason there are so many craft in the Exchange labelled as [Stock] is because stock crafts are most compatible with everyone's install of the game, mods or not.  Just as almost everyone else here has been saying.

BTW, I didn't bother to vote, because frankly, it's pointless.