All-Stock Elitism?

[Firemetal]

"Fix the game?" It ain't broken. KSP is hard. It ain't no kid's game. It takes lots of math and physics understanding to play. Now most people do not like the math part. That is why mods like KER exist. I also think that features from some mods like KAC or RCS build aid would make it a little better. But it is by no means broken.

When people make 100% stock craft, it is so it can be downloaded with ease. Not always just  rep and admiration. And mods like KER that "fix" the game, usually don't have parts added in. So when people say 100% stock, they mean stock parts.

(This was all opinion, if you like playing with 50 mods, then do it. Sorry if I offended anyone.)

Fire

[Overland]

Theres nothing elitist about posting stock craft on the spacecraft exchange..having the stock tag means anyone can use.it..for better or worse

In this ipad generation some people wince at opening any kind of file explorer..skills once normal and taken for granted have been lost

 

Stock is simply a collection of mods that comes in the tin..

I only use 3 mods..because I like whst i use..i also.have a personal collection.of mods ive modded for me

The detriot and EMD diesel monoprop gensets derived from sam halls minijet that I use on diesel electric locomotives.. I use this..no one else does.. If i were to put a craft on the exchange itd be [STOCK]

Only because people dont have mods I use..

Alot of people hate downloading a.mod specificly for a craft too.. Its another thing to clutter the SPH build.menu..

Ksp takes long enough to.load.

With more content it takes longer

People WANT things made stock and added by squad because of this..stability,compatabilty, and not having to hunt for x mod

 

Theres nothing elitist about stock..

Some of its rather plain..lifeless.. Inferior

But... Everyone has it..and it works with craft designed so

 

Its not a dig at you..but..i.do.see that in the minds of some, your poll and.post could be seen as division..trolling

The kerbal komunity is better than this 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Overland

[tseitsei89]

Didnt read the thread so this has probably been said before but my 2 cents:

THE reason why people in the forums like stock so much is that it is the same for everyone and everyone has it.

If you share a stock craftfile ANYONE playing the game can download it and see how it works ver quickly and easily. But if your craft uses ****load of mods only the people who have the necessary mods can try it. And obviously you cant have all the mods installed at once so there will always be compatibility issues.

Same goes for challenges since most mods usually give an advantage or a disadvantage so it's easier to just create challenges only for stock since that is an equal playing ground for everyone. And again everyone has the stock so allowing/requiring all kinds of mods might make many stock people unable to participate. While people using mods can still easily participate by just not using their mods for that particular challenge.

 

Mods are good for extra content though when playing by yourself but if you want something community stuff that many people can participate in it's often better/easier to keep it full stock...

[monstah]

9 hours ago, Firemetal said:

"Fix the game?" It ain't broken.

Um, who are you arguing with? No one else mentioned "fixing the game" in this thread  

9 hours ago, Firemetal said:

And mods like KER that "fix" the game, usually don't have parts added in. So when people say 100% stock, they mean stock parts.

With that part I agree, that a "stock craft" is a craft with only stock parts. If I plug it into my unmodded game (not that I personally have one, but in general) and it loads and flies, it's a stock craft. Whether I used KER to help me design it is irrelevant if I could have used a spreadsheet instead.

The question in this thread was "it there an issue with stock elitism". For what I read of replies, there doesn't even seem to be much of a stock elitism, let alone a problem with it. Everyone agrees there are many stock crafts available, but no modded game player here seems to find that an issue, and I don't see anyone feeling excluded from downloading a stock craft. There are always some elitists, be them stock or FAR or RSS/RO, and they aren't prevalent. A stock badge on a craft seems to me to be more inclusive than elitist.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, tseitsei89 said:

Didnt read the thread so this has probably been said before but my 2 cents:

THE reason why people in the forums like stock so much is that it is the same for everyone and everyone has it.

If you share a stock craftfile ANYONE playing the game can download it and see how it works ver quickly and easily. But if your craft uses ****load of mods only the people who have the necessary mods can try it. And obviously you cant have all the mods installed at once so there will always be compatibility issues.

Same goes for challenges since most mods usually give an advantage or a disadvantage so it's easier to just create challenges only for stock since that is an equal playing ground for everyone. And again everyone has the stock so allowing/requiring all kinds of mods might make many stock people unable to participate. While people using mods can still easily participate by just not using their mods for that particular challenge.

Mods are good for extra content though when playing by yourself but if you want something community stuff that many people can participate in it's often better/easier to keep it full stock...

This, for challenges its an big thing. Say you have an competition about lightest craft to land on Eve and get back to orbit. 
Here Eve optimized engines has an huge benefit as it reduce the ISP penalty from the high pressure on Eve. Its also realistic as everybody would use engine optimized for the body they are used on. 
However this would pretty much make optimized engines required. 
On the other hand mechjeb would often be legal in this challenge as its an build and not pilot one. 

[tseitsei89]

19 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

This, for challenges its an big thing. Say you have an competition about lightest craft to land on Eve and get back to orbit. 
Here Eve optimized engines has an huge benefit as it reduce the ISP penalty from the high pressure on Eve. Its also realistic as everybody would use engine optimized for the body they are used on. 
However this would pretty much make optimized engines required. 
On the other hand mechjeb would often be legal in this challenge as its an build and not pilot one. 

Plus mechjeb doesnt really give you any advantage since any competent player can fly more efficient ascent profile than mechjebs autopilot

[Firemetal]

59 minutes ago, monstah said:

Um, who are you arguing with? No one else mentioned "fixing the game" in this thread  

With that part I agree, that a "stock craft" is a craft with only stock parts. If I plug it into my unmodded game (not that I personally have one, but in general) and it loads and flies, it's a stock craft. Whether I used KER to help me design it is irrelevant if I could have used a spreadsheet instead.

The question in this thread was "it there an issue with stock elitism". For what I read of replies, there doesn't even seem to be much of a stock elitism, let alone a problem with it. Everyone agrees there are many stock crafts available, but no modded game player here seems to find that an issue, and I don't see anyone feeling excluded from downloading a stock craft. There are always some elitists, be them stock or FAR or RSS/RO, and they aren't prevalent. A stock badge on a craft seems to me to be more inclusive than elitist.

I believe @Veeltch did. Don't want to start an argument but that kinda hurt. I don't believe that the stock game is broken. You think they have ignored all the people who want DV and TWR readouts in the stock game? No. They don't want that. It makes the game too darn easy. Sure it might be great for a new player so it should be optional to have such readouts but seriously. The game isn't broken and mods don't fix it, they change it and occasionally make it easier.

(This is also 100% opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone.)

Fire

[OrbitalBuzzsaw]

10 hours ago, Firemetal said:

"Fix the game?" It ain't broken. KSP is hard. It ain't no kid's game. It takes lots of math and physics understanding to play.

That's what I'm talking about.

[monstah]

3 hours ago, Firemetal said:

I believe @Veeltch did.

Huh, yeah, I missed that one. My bad.

[suicidejunkie]

On 12/17/2016 at 5:45 PM, eloquentJane said:

"so do you think NASA cheats by using autopilots" sort of thing.

Reality cheated first, NASA is just trying to level the playing field.

But in KSP we can fly space missions as they were originally intended.

 

[Randazzo]

For the most part, the members of this community are incredibly supportive of one another regardless of a players preferences regarding mods.

Personally, I use A LOT of mods. I frequently change those mods, as I have a great appreciation for quite a number of modders yet sometimes they overlap -- Roverdude and Angel-125, for example. This has almost always been my preference.

Now, one day, I decided I wanted to share my career with a friend. Suffice it to say that it was exceedingly difficult getting him set up with all the appropriate mods, and worse, I had modified some other things myself and forgot about them. At any rate, when going to share, STOCK is just easier, plain and simple.

[SSgt Baloo]

Mods are just tools in your toolbox, and in my case, some of them are prostheses. I have nerve damage in my right hand (still the most coordinated hand I've got) and so I use mods like Mechjeb to prevent (or reduce the frequency of) the occasional nervous twitch which accidentally double-stages my flight or the spasm that turns what was intended to be a simple course adjustment into an adventure in regaining control before it crashes. I'm still patiently waiting for Pilot Assistant to be updated. That's a lot less "wandery" than Mechjeb's Spaceplane autopilot feature (which is still less "wandery" than for me to fly manually).

Likewise, I love to make planes in this game, and like all the mods that let me make a wide variety of them, with many different powerplants to choose from, cockpits, and passenger sections. I also like the mod that lets me equip the pods with ejection seats. I don't actually use that one much, but I have anxiety disorders, and knowing I can save the crew reduces my stress to a level where I can enjoy the game.

I've occasionally seen people express the opinion that any use of mods is somehow "cheating". I think what they are actually trying to say is "I'm better at this game because I'm a purist". Fine. Be a purist if that's what floats your boat, but don't use that as justification for telling everyone else that when they are using mods, they are "doing it wrong" (or "cheating"). Not using mods is just as "cheaty" as using them, unless you are trying to compete in a challenge where one or more mods are prohibited, and you used that mod anyway.

Edited December 20, 2016 by SSgt Baloo

[MitchS]

 I used to be a little bit snotty about "all stock" but the fun-ness of the game with that philosophy followed a pretty parabolic curve for me over time. Got really fun fast, then got really boring after a brief peak. Graphing calculators and hand-written mission longs was a really fun way to learn orbital mechanics, but lost its luster shortly after (okay, during) the first Duna trip.

Then, I started using mods that let me get the most out of my "all stock" game. It started with MechJeb for Delta-V readouts and executing the tedious maneuvers that I've done a hundred times. Then, realizing how much more I could enjoy my stock game by letting mods do some calculations for me real-time, I started adding a few more. KER for those nice HUD data displays for good situational awareness, RCS Build Aid for making really well-balanced and finely engineered stock ships...

...then I saw the mods that addressed my actual gameplay complaints. KAC to let me run multiple missions at a time, SCANsat for adding dimension and intimacy to the planets and making them worth interacting with more than once, X Science for making the most of my science excursions that I love so much, All Y'all because clicking so many times is such a bummer, KIS/KAS and Surface Science to make EVAs interesting and fulfilling again, and most recently, EVE because I realized that literally the only thing left missing from my game for me was the aesthetic joy that it had when I first started playing.

I may not just have "data readout" mods anymore, but I honestly don't feel like I've gotten away from stock at all in the sense that I used to be concerned. I don't have overpowered parts that make the engineering challenges any less challenging. I don't edit files to put things into orbit or fill empty fuel tanks. I don't even revert saves after accidents unless the accident was the game's fault. All of those things take away from KSP for me, and they define "not stock" in my book.

My "stock" KSP, gently modded, is now perfect for what I want in this game. Clean, refined, and without superfluous parts or interfaces, it has every bit of the spirit of playing vanilla with a few conveniences that enhance that experience a thousand times over. This is what's right for me, and I hope everyone--whether they're stock-only elitists or that kid who just builds BD Armory ships to shoot each other down (and who I completely don't relate with but that's okay)--finds that same satisfaction out of this magnificently modular game.

Edited December 19, 2016 by MitchS
edit: readability

[Jarin]

The only reason I bother with "all stock" builds is for sharing. If I build something stock, I know anyone can use it. Not everyone likes the Mk2/3 expansion mods, or  Near Future, or [insert mod here] since everyone's mod tastes will vary. If I build it stock, it just works. 

[Guest]

Just thought I'd point out that if you build something using only stock/vanilla parts, not everyone can use it; many RO installs are heavily pruned (by mods) that remove as many tanks and wings (and other parts) as possible in favor of their procedural counterparts. Then there's the fact that engines and fuels change dramatically so there's no real way to use them without change anyway. The assertion that "everyone can use it" is false. Rather, you could say "everyone that I want to be able to use it can" or "everyone who still plays KSP like I do can use it". vOv

[adsii1970]

I can actually see both sides of this coin but do not consider it as elitism as much as convenience. By default, if I share a vehicle with anyone, I upload it to KerbalX, (thanks to @katateochi for being the creator and maintaining the site), and then if the person decides the craft is worth it, they can see the mods (or lack of mods, depending on the craft) I've used...

Still do not see what the big issue is... maybe I'm just slow on the uptake or maybe this thread was an attempt to start an argument?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

maybe this thread was an attempt to start an argument?

You can't be serious... People don't do that.

[adsii1970]

@regex

Oh, come on, there are always those who want to poke the bear with a stick...

Then there are those that once the bear is awakened, run in terror and scream about how big and mad the bear is...

I don't have that rule 2.2 violator badge in my signature for nothing! Apparently I poke the bear without even thinking about it...

Edited December 20, 2016 by adsii1970

[monstah]

1 minute ago, adsii1970 said:

Oh, come on, there are always those who want to poke the bear with a stick...

Amusingly enough, the bear fiercely resisted being annoyed and kept its cool at all costs  

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, monstah said:

Amusingly enough, the bear fiercely resisted being annoyed and kept its cool at all costs  

Then you poke it harder... and with a bigger and more pointy stick...

[Stevie_D]

I think the whole subject is a misunderstanding or projection of feeling by the OP that just isn't there.

 

When people put "Stock" on their mods, or promote their mods as Stock, it -isn't- them claiming anything. 

It is a description. 

A description so that people downloading a mod understand what they are getting.

If it isn't listed as stock, people downloading -understand- that they are getting something that isn't created with the game's specific kerbal asthetic to it.

If it is, then it is.

There is no elitism involved.

 

If you think "Stock" is being elitist, then by the same definition, putting "1.2.2" on your mod is being elitist against the previous versions of the game.

It isn't. It is simply a description and information to the downloader.

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Red Iron Crown
No need for namecalling.

[CranialRectosis]

I am a Flitetester and I build my own flying toys that I fly FPV in my own race course on my own acre. I started building my own models when I was a kid in 1985. I got into drones because I had heard all the bad stuff about them and I decided to see for myself and got hooked.

Multirotors use a flight controller to fly the craft. No matter what, you are not directly telling each motor how fast to spin, the robot is. Some folks use very simple robots that are gyro only. Some use fancier robots that can do lots more including fly the drone for you completely hands free.

Multi-rotors took the world by storm in 2012 and much of the news has been very bad. Eventually the governments got involved and that has really pitted the old school (fly it yourselfers) against the newbies (hey even a moron can fly these) against each other. Government uses such divisions to generate money for itself and to restrict liberty.

The thing is, without the newbies, the hobby was dying out. Without newbies, there is no future. Without the skill, patience and experience of the old hands, the newbies crash and cry and quit. The division, acerbated by government intrusion, is the only thing in 150 years of existence that can end the hobby here in the US. If we don't come together to stop this, the hobby will end.

 

If there is one thing I have learned it's that the problem isn't mods or robots or which forum you are a member of. The problem is divisive elitism of any kind. SQUAD wants and needs the revenue the stock only players bring just as much as it needs the revenue the mod players bring. That means, sink or swim, we will do it together. Sinking is easy. Swimming is hard and IMO the best bet is to play the game, enhance the experience with fan content, help newbies and leave the cattiness to government employees and 9 year old girls.

Edited December 20, 2016 by CranialRectosis

[SSgt Baloo]

Some of you obviously haven't had the pleasure of having your discussion of a mod interrupted by someone whose only contribution to the conversation is "I never use mods. Mods are cheating." I've only seen it happen on these forums a couple of times (and I don't go looking for things like that), but it's never pleasant, it's never necessary, and it's always completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[Levelord]

I install mods that are utility mods but rarely install part mods. It's mostly because it allows my craft to stay somewhat compatible between KSP versions (like missing parts) and also allows me to share my craft file. Sharing craft files was my main original reason for sticking to vanilla as much as possible because I don't expect people to download the same mods as I do in order to enjoy the crafts I make. Sharing craft files and talking about them is one of the few ways I can interact with the community.

[Superfluous J]

9 hours ago, regex said:

Just thought I'd point out that if you build something using only stock/vanilla parts, not everyone can use it; many RO installs are heavily pruned (by mods) that remove as many tanks and wings (and other parts) as possible in favor of their procedural counterparts. Then there's the fact that engines and fuels change dramatically so there's no real way to use them without change anyway. The assertion that "everyone can use it" is false. Rather, you could say "everyone that I want to be able to use it can" or "everyone who still plays KSP like I do can use it". vOv

I think of it more as "everyone who wants to be able to use random ships people upload to ship websites can use it."

I really doubt there are many RO/RSS players out there who didn't know what they were getting into when it comes to being able to use stock ships.