KRL-KerbalRacingLeague-Event organizer tools

[Triop]

2 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

Personally, I think that's a bad idea. But I won't leave it hanging there. I'll explain my reasoning in the hopes that you and others agree, but I will accept that you may not:  

As an option, Races! (Or any other mod that facilitates time keeping and race organization) is excellent. Or at least in theory, I've yet to try it myself. 

As a requirement, the use of any mod in a race will alienate a great deal of potential participants that chose to play completely stock. 

I know and as a stock freak myself I understand, but the mod is so small and easy and the flag timing will never be accurate enough for some.

You can still build stock and use the mod no ?

[Slam_Jones]

3 minutes ago, Triop said:

Since this is about event organizing and I'm hosting the Kerbal Dakar I must say using flags for timing is stupid in a rally.

To prove my Dakar you will need to put up 14 screenshots !

The flags need to go.

Plus, as I discovered on my last run, it's easy to accidentally knock over the flag and push it out of place...

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

Just now, Triop said:

I know and as a stock freak myself I understand, but the mod is so small and easy and the flag timing will never be accurate enough for some.

You can still build stock and use the mod no ?

Good point. What if we simply link the Races! Mod in the OP, in a yet-to-be-made "mods you may want to use" section? I'd expect any future events from you would do just that, haha. Thanks again, btw. You've started something. 

[Triop]

Just now, Slam_Jones said:

Plus, as I discovered on my last run, it's easy to accidentally knock over the flag and push it out of place...

[Slam_Jones]

Just now, Triop said:

-pic snip'd-

I'm out of likes for the day, but yes, exactly

[Triop]

2 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

Good point. What if we simply link the Races! Mod in the OP, in a yet-to-be-made "mods you may want to use" section? I'd expect any future events from you would do just that, haha. Thanks again, btw. You've started something. 

I was soooo sceptic when I found this mod.

I had been looking aaaaall day for a timing mod, this is the only one out there.

Just install it, watch the youtube video and try it !

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

1 minute ago, Triop said:

I was soooo sceptic when I found this mod.

I had been looking aaaaall day for a timing mod, this is the only one out there.

Just install it, watch the youtube video and try it !

 

2 minutes ago, Triop said:

I was soooo sceptic when I found this mod.

I had been looking aaaaall day for a timing mod, this is the only one out there.

Just install it, watch the youtube video and try it !

Now I kinda have to haha. Later tonight, promise. 

 

[Triop]

11 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

 

Now I kinda have to haha. Later tonight, promise. 

 

How it would look like:

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

I've edited the OP again to further 'get the ball rolling'. This is the intended format, and the kind of information we are deliberating. Not what an event organizer must do, but what they can do. As far as I'm concerned, if we see more races because of this thread, mission accomplished. Anyways...

 

-what did I miss?

-what did I get wrong (explain).

-where should we be more descriptive?

-where should we be more vague?

[Azimech]

My opinion about terrain: I believe part count has much more effect on computer performance than the terrain does. If a rally, survival or hillclimb is to be done, my suggestion is that everyone at least tries to run it on high. I've got the feeling terrain detail isn't as taxing on the systems as it was a number of versions before. There are other settings that can be adjusted: render precision, physics delta-t (a very important one!) and scatter objects.

Talking about scatter objects ... for anything higher than bare minimum systems there's a mod which gives pine trees, cacti and rocks a collider so you can crash into them. The standard trees don't have this collider though. Very exciting extra element.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

4 minutes ago, Azimech said:

Terrain...scatter

I noticed the same, after switching just recently. Higher detail terrain than minimum used to grind my laptop to a halt like a 1000 part orbital station. Now it's maybe a loss in 2 FPS. Maybe. Theres clearly been some work done here, but I'm not sure when. I had it on minimum for at least 2 years. 

Scatter colliders: if you can scare up a link on that mod, I'll add it to the mod list on the OP. What Kerbal rally raid couldn't benefit from more ways to RUD?

For the purposes of this thread, and the resource it can be, I'd love to put something to the effect of

"Be sure to stress the use of uniform terrain detail/ground scatter settings. And if at all possible, use the highest settings possible".

Everything in that OP is grounds for discussion and subject to amendment. It was just my way of painting a target. As long as nobody disagrees with that, I'll amend it as such. 

 

 

[Azimech]

55 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

I noticed the same, after switching just recently. Higher detail terrain than minimum used to grind my laptop to a halt like a 1000 part orbital station. Now it's maybe a loss in 2 FPS. Maybe. Theres clearly been some work done here, but I'm not sure when. I had it on minimum for at least 2 years. 

Scatter colliders: if you can scare up a link on that mod, I'll add it to the mod list on the OP. What Kerbal rally raid couldn't benefit from more ways to RUD?

For the purposes of this thread, and the resource it can be, I'd love to put something to the effect of

"Be sure to stress the use of uniform terrain detail/ground scatter settings. And if at all possible, use the highest settings possible".

Everything in that OP is grounds for discussion and subject to amendment. It was just my way of painting a target. As long as nobody disagrees with that, I'll amend it as such. 

 

 

 

Here ya go, solid scatters are part of this mod. It's highly configurable so it can be adapted to low spec systems. You'll need Kopernicus as well. 

 

 

[katateochi]

I think using something like the Races! mod is almost essential. It just makes it simpler and never mind each player having to upload all those screenshots, the poor race running has to check through them all. For a lot of RL races you have to often strap some gizmo to your car, having the requirement of a timing mod is kinda just like that. 
 

23 hours ago, Slam_Jones said:

Plus, as I discovered on my last run, it's easy to accidentally knock over the flag and push it out of place...

not only that but it's dangerous to spectators! I just did a run and hit a flag which went flying into a spectator stand and knocked a kerbal out of his seat

 

I've got something to ponder for the rules guidelines. If you are using a jet boosted rover (and assuming with boost flaps) what constitutes flying? If you go off a big jump and the boost flaps stay open and you're being propelled through the air then clearly that's flying rather than just jumping. But what about going over a small jump/rise where you do leave the ground but not for that long (maybe a second or two), is that a jump or are you flying? What should be the defining cut off point to distinguish between jumping and flying?  Maybe time in the air, distance above the ground, gaining speed while airborne? It's not something that's easy to police, but to have a guideline would be helpful. 

 

I'll have to try that mod out for colliders on scatter objects. I try to avoid trees and rocks anyway but it would be pretty cool if they posed a real threat. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by katateochi

[Azimech]

3 minutes ago, katateochi said:

I think using something like the Races! mod is almost essential. It just makes it simpler and never mind each player having to upload all those screenshots, the poor race running has to check through them all. For a lot of RL races you have to often strap some gizmo to your car, having the requirement of a timing mod is kinda just like that. 
 

not only that but it's dangerous to spectators! I just did a run and hit a flag which went flying into a spectator stand and knock

 

I've got something to ponder for the rules guidelines. If you are using a jet boosted rover (and assuming with boost flaps) what constitutes flying? If you go off a big jump and the boost flaps stay open and you're being propelled through the air then clearly that's flying rather than just jumping. But what about going over a small jump/rise where you do leave the ground but not for that long (maybe a second or two), is that a jump or are you flying? What should be the defining cut off point to distinguish between jumping and flying?  Maybe time in the air, distance above the ground, gaining speed while airborne? It's not something that's easy to police, but to have a guideline would be helpful. 

 

I'll have to try that mod out for colliders on scatter objects. I try to avoid trees and rocks anyway but it would be pretty cool if they posed a real threat. 

 

I think if you use SAS or control surfaces actively to control your motion through the air other than losing speed, you are flying and not jumping.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

At this point, I think the Ayes have it for requiring Races! For timekeeping. Personally, I feel otherwise, but will amend the OP to reflect consensus  . This requirement, of course, would be for KRL official events, and not necessarily all that use this thread for reference. I intend to make distinctions like that clear. 

 

jets, boost flaps, and what constitutes flight: I move that @Slam_Jones KOS script be the common denominator, where the need arise. 

 

EDIT: if I can learn to do animated parts, I will be making a fast-closing aperture (like cameras) for use as a boost flap. With the blessing of the godfather @Azimech, of course  

Edited December 23, 2016 by DrunkenKerbalnaut

[Slam_Jones]

8 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

At this point, I think the Ayes have it for requiring Races! For timekeeping. Personally, I feel otherwise, but will amend the OP to reflect consensus  . This requirement, of course, would be for KRL official events, and not necessarily all that use this thread for reference. I intend to make distinctions like that clear. 

 

jets, boost flaps, and what constitutes flight: I move that @Slam_Jones KOS script be the common denominator, where the need arise. 

I am more than happy to provide what little code I have so far!  It's pretty basic by any means, so it's easily expandable.  In fact yesterday I added another line that posts the vessel speed each tick (in this case, I mean tick as in one cycle of the script, which is when it reaches the end of the loop, and goes back to the beginning.)

The big variable is how long the delay is between each cycle.  Currently I have it set to 1/4 of a second, but I've noticed that while airborne, it takes approx two ticks (or half a second) for the speed to be affected by the flaps, and speed will begin to increase only about two ticks (again, half a second in this case) after landing again.  I think this is due to the deploy time of the flaps.  I've found that putting the flap closer to the CoT, and only having it deploy by about 50% or so makes the response time much quicker.

Regardless, the delay between thrust and blocked thrust can be minimized pretty effectively with some tweaking here and there.  And adjusting the delay between each cycle of the script.

But when I get home I'll copy and paste what I have here, with some comments so each line makes sense to those with little to no programming experience!   (Alternatively you can find one of the videos I've posted, I usually like to leave the script open so people can see it, and possibly copy it if needed/desired )

Edited December 23, 2016 by Slam_Jones

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

5 minutes ago, Slam_Jones said:

I am more than happy to provide what little code I have so far!....

Please share it here. It can be hard to make out in the video. We just need the bare functionality of closing the flap when Landed=false. Or however you've done it. Of course, we will wait to see if this is agreeable to more people, before making it canon. 

[Slam_Jones]

 

Argh, the forums ate my comment!  Boooo!

Let me try this again:  (code WITH comments)

You may need to use the scroll bar to see the entire script.

//First things first: make sure your flaps prevent any thrust.  Put your vessel on the runway, activate flaps, activate brakes, and kick the engine up to full.

//The script is set up so that it works with Action Group 1.  Please set your flaps to AG1 as "Toggle Deploy".  Make sure they deploy the right direction!!!

//Now, we are ready to begin.

//Setting up a dummy variable to control the loop

SET X TO 1.

//Under normal conditions, X will always be 1: ergo the loop will continue endlessly.

UNTIL X > 1 {

//Now, we need to find out if the vessel is grounded or flying.  We can check the SHIP:STATUS variable to see what is happening.  Since we bound Action Group 1 to the Flaps, we can control the flaps via the AG1 command.

IF SHIP:STATUS = "LANDED" {PRINT "Landed! Flaps OFF! Speed: "+SHIP:GROUNDSPEED. AG1 OFF.  

//Okay, so this part is optional.  I like my rover to point "Prograde" to help keep it stable.  However, if the vessel is moving too slowly, it can't register "Prograde," and would shut down the script.  So, when it is moving too slowly, it will switch to "Stability," which is NOT based on speed.

IF SHIP:GROUNDSPEED > 1 {SET SASMODE TO "PROGRADE".}
ELSE {SET SASMODE TO "STABILITY".}
}

//So if it is not registering as being LANDED, then we check the next most likely option: that it may be flying.  If so, deploy flaps.

ELSE IF SHIP:STATUS = "FLYING" {PRINT "Flying!  Flaps ON! Speed: "+SHIP:GROUNDSPEED.  AG1 ON.}

//You may wish to activate the script right on the launchpad/runway.  This command lets you know that you are good to go.

ELSE IF SHIP:STATUS = "PRELAUNCH" {PRINT "Ready to launch!"}

//And lastly, there are other statuses... but not likely in this case!  However, let's add a check just in case, as an ELSE so it will catch EVERYTHING that doesn't fit into the other options.

ELSE {PRINT "Error!  Unexpected ship status!!!  Are you sure this is a rover??".}

//Since scripts takes up EC and CPU cycles, I put a WAIT command in here.  Feel free to adjust as needed.  0.25 refers to seconds, so this takes a quarter second between each tick.

WAIT 0.25.
}
	

 

And: code WITHOUT comments:

SET X TO 1.

UNTIL X > 1 {

IF SHIP:STATUS = "LANDED" {PRINT "Landed! Flaps OFF! Speed: "+SHIP:GROUNDSPEED. AG1 OFF.  
IF SHIP:GROUNDSPEED > 1 {SET SASMODE TO "PROGRADE".}
ELSE {SET SASMODE TO "STABILITY".}
}

ELSE IF SHIP:STATUS = "FLYING" {PRINT "Flying!  Flaps ON! Speed: "+SHIP:GROUNDSPEED.  AG1 ON.}

ELSE IF SHIP:STATUS = "PRELAUNCH" {PRINT "Ready to launch!"}

ELSE {PRINT "Error!  Unexpected ship status!!!  Are you sure this is a rover??".}

WAIT 0.25.

}

 

Edit: Woo!  Looks like everything is here this time!  PLEASE let me know if any part of this is confusing and/or further guidance is needed! 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Slam_Jones
Added the WAIT command

[Azimech]

30 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

At this point, I think the Ayes have it for requiring Races! For timekeeping. Personally, I feel otherwise, but will amend the OP to reflect consensus  . This requirement, of course, would be for KRL official events, and not necessarily all that use this thread for reference. I intend to make distinctions like that clear. 

 

jets, boost flaps, and what constitutes flight: I move that @Slam_Jones KOS script be the common denominator, where the need arise. 

 

EDIT: if I can learn to do animated parts, I will be making a fast-closing aperture (like cameras) for use as a boost flap. With the blessing of the godfather @Azimech, of course  

If you're really precise, you can make the stock Boost Flap work almost instantaneously. The small ones move at 30 degs/ and have a max deflection angle of 20 (at 100) or 30 (at 150 authority), the idea is to give them an different initial angle, place them close to the centerline of thrust and limit the control authority. If someone wants them, I could upload some pictures to clarify.

Pro: Reduces deployment time from max 1s to ~0.1s.

Con: A bent frame can have a very nasty side effect, drag is a bit higher.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Azimech

[Slam_Jones]

5 minutes ago, Azimech said:

If you're really precise, you can make the stock Boost Flap work almost instantaneously. The small ones move at 30 degs/ and have a max deflection angle of 20 (at 100) or 30 (at 150 authority), the idea is to give them an different initial angle, place them close to the centerline of thrust and limit the control authority. If someone wants them, I could upload some pictures to clarify.

Pro: Reduces deployment time from max 1s to ~0.1s.

Con: A bent frame can have a very nasty side effect, drag is a bit higher.

I used this method to reduce delay time for my flaps.  Ideally, the flap (at rest) is just barely below the CoT.  When deployed, it just barely needs to cover the CoT.  Using these two facts, you can have a very very small amount of authority needed, making for very responsive flaps.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

Any in support of, or opposed to Slams script as described?

This would also make KOS a required mod, for KRL official events, (and a recommendation for any others). 

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

3 minutes ago, DrunkenKerbalnaut said:

Any in support of, or opposed to Slams script as described?

This would also make KOS a required mod, for KRL official events, (and a recommendation for any others). 

The more parts that become essential the more players will be discouraged i believe the KISS principle make for greater uptake.

And re rules, classes and what is and isn't stock, while a vehicle can look  for all intents and purposes stock it can be anything but, with a couple of well thought out MM patches a stock vehicle can be tweaked to way above stock performance expectations , with no visible signs whatsoever, therefor i propose that anything that contains an MM patch of any sort be classed as a mod entry not stock, I'd give examples but don't want anyone getting ideas , but 1 module added  by untraceable patch to a juno can make it a lot better for racing in general, and much better than stock.

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

Re: too many requisite mods. A fair point. Detraction noted. I kinda agree, and so remove my vote for making KOS/Slams Script required. I can't defend either side with confidence. 

Slam for. 

Spanner against. 

[Slam_Jones]

I think it should be up to whether they choose to use jet engines or otherwise.  My logic train was thus:

- I want to compete, and I want to use jet engines
- Since I am not allowed to fly, I need a way to regulate my thrust while airborne
- Due to the spool time of the Juno, I cannot rely on throttle control to accomplish the above
- Ergo, boost flaps are the way for me.
- However, since my ride is bouncy, monitoring the flaps will be difficult.
- Since I am human and therefore subject to error, I will build a script that monitors it for me.
- Using the script, I am able to compete properly without fear of disqualification.

 

I can't say that this will work for everyone, but it is something to consider if you prefer jet propulsion.

In this case, I expect to see a lot more Stock vehicles than Modded ones.  Unless I'm mistaken, the only proper way to do Junos is modded, right?  Otherwise you may forget the flaps and start flying.  But hey, that's just my opinion.
 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Slam_Jones

[DrunkenKerbalnaut]

You'll see me suggest this compromise again, I'm sure: perhaps make the requirement of KOS/Script a KRL level event thing? And merely a suggestion for other races?

The positives of treating KRL events as "premier" with their own rules: You know what to expect from a race with it's initials in the title.

The most likely downside: we may never see an actual KRL event because it requires too many things from it's participants and organizers.