totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[Pectus Solentis]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Tbh not opposed at all to an mpl in the usual MKS formats, probably Duna and tundra 250

What does Tbh mean?

[Terwin]

3 hours ago, Pectus Solentis said:

What does Tbh mean?

To be Honest

Sounds like if you want to make Duna And Tundra MPLs RD would be happy to take your pull request.

[Pectus Solentis]

8 minutes ago, Terwin said:

To be Honest

Sounds like if you want to make Duna And Tundra MPLs RD would be happy to take your pull request.

There was it 4 years before, wasn't it?

[Loren Pechtel]

11 hours ago, Terwin said:

To be fair, the 2.5m science lab is already more than capable of finishing off the tech tree in short order from just the Kerbin system, so what would be the point of a lab with 3x the efficiency if 3 labs is already over-kill for the tech-tree?

Also, with those (relativly) new science storage modules, it is pretty easy to collect science for several labs to process in parallel if you want a huge collected science total after finishing the tech tree...

Yup.  Some time ago I tried the science lab route to massive science.  I had already grabbed all the science from the Kerbin system so I went to Duna (or was it one of the moons?  I forget.)  I had a rover with all the science instruments and Bon Voyage to guide it.  A separate mission landed a science lab.  Gather all the science, upload to the lab, launch another copy of the science lab rocket, unmanned.  When the lab was done the scientist goes next door to the next lab, repeat the cycle.

Then I discovered the mod that allowed you to use the extra science to improve parts was incompatible with Tweakscale.

The one thing I did note about the science labs that I didn't like is they have limited capacity.  There would be less management involved if their capacity was infinite.  Since their yield is tied to how much science they have the extra input should be a buffer that keeps them full rather than simply increasing their working capacity.

Note that in career mode once you have progressed far enough you can fund your whole program this way and not take another mission if you don't want to.

[Drakenred65]

15 hours ago, Pectus Solentis said:

Quite a bit disappointing. I think that reprocessing Science data in my base is a primary function of constructing space base...

Did RoverDude think that Stock Mobile Processing Lab is enough for that role? But I want Science Lab of Duna series or 3.75m Tundra size.

Does anyone still just have the stock lab? Because I have At least 9 from mods . Which is probably why he never did one.

 

[Gilph]

20 hours ago, Pectus Solentis said:

Quite a bit disappointing. I think that reprocessing Science data in my base is a primary function of constructing space base...

Did RoverDude think that Stock Mobile Processing Lab is enough for that role? But I want Science Lab of Duna series or 3.75m Tundra size.

I have always used these, they are stockalike and fit well with my MKS bases

 

[Pectus Solentis]

14 hours ago, Loren Pechtel said:

Yup.  Some time ago I tried the science lab route to massive science.  I had already grabbed all the science from the Kerbin system so I went to Duna (or was it one of the moons?  I forget.)  I had a rover with all the science instruments and Bon Voyage to guide it.  A separate mission landed a science lab.  Gather all the science, upload to the lab, launch another copy of the science lab rocket, unmanned.  When the lab was done the scientist goes next door to the next lab, repeat the cycle.

Then I discovered the mod that allowed you to use the extra science to improve parts was incompatible with Tweakscale.

The one thing I did note about the science labs that I didn't like is they have limited capacity.  There would be less management involved if their capacity was infinite.  Since their yield is tied to how much science they have the extra input should be a buffer that keeps them full rather than simply increasing their working capacity.

Note that in career mode once you have progressed far enough you can fund your whole program this way and not take another mission if you don't want to.

As you said "The one thing I did note about the science labs that I didn't like is they have limited capacity." I think that adding Tundra Science Lab that has more science data capacity than stock MPL is quite desirable.

[RoverDude]

It's also unbalancing.  Saying this as the fellow who wrote the original MPL code for stock

[Loren Pechtel]

6 hours ago, RoverDude said:

It's also unbalancing.  Saying this as the fellow who wrote the original MPL code for stock

Note that I said the extra should be a buffer, it shouldn't participate in the yield calculations.  I realize that if it did it would certainly be unbalancing.

I don't see any balance issues in having an infinite holding capacity for output.  That's simply a matter of not having to tend it as often.

[RoverDude]

Just now, Loren Pechtel said:

Note that I said the extra should be a buffer, it shouldn't participate in the yield calculations.  I realize that if it did it would certainly be unbalancing.

I don't see any balance issues in having an infinite holding capacity for output.  That's simply a matter of not having to tend it as often.

And that is exactly one of the balance levers.  It's why they have a hold capacity in the first place.

[Loren Pechtel]

15 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

And that is exactly one of the balance levers.  It's why they have a hold capacity in the first place.

How is that a balance lever?  What I'm suggesting would simply reduce the number of times you have to tend the lab, it wouldn't change the output.  It's just a reduction of micromanagement.

[DStaal]

16 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

How is that a balance lever?  What I'm suggesting would simply reduce the number of times you have to tend the lab, it wouldn't change the output.  It's just a reduction of micromanagement.

Micromanagement == harder to use, and you'll use something harder to use less than you'd use something easy to use.

He's saying they specifically limited how easy it is to use to keep it from being overused.

[RoverDude]

19 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

How is that a balance lever?  What I'm suggesting would simply reduce the number of times you have to tend the lab, it wouldn't change the output.  It's just a reduction of micromanagement.

You just answered your question

[Foxxonius Augustus]

I mean Micromanagement =/= Balance. If it is overpowered and annoying to use guess what, people will feel like they have to use it and be annoyed when they do. Better to just balance the system in the first place.

[Pershgn]

I just recently started with MKS (love it btw, awesome job!), but have encountered a couple issues that I'm expecting are just mod or version conflicts of some sort, thats if its not just me not figuring out how it works 

First off; the Ranger inflatable workshop appears in sandbox but not in sci career (I haven't checked normal career). It's not in either the tech tree or VAB in sci career, but is present in VAB in sandbox. I've looked at .cfg's for the part and the community tech tree both and nothing jumped out at me as the culprit. Any ideas? Should I report in the CTT thread?

 

Second; and I think this is just me being dumb; I can't seem to get any workshop to actually function, no matter how I go about it I'm told 0 workforce. At first i was convinced the Scout Landers workshop functionality was broken, but after playing (trying to) with both the Ranger and Tundra workshops in sandbox I realize I can't seem to get workforce or functionality from any of them. Bug, conflict, or dumb?

Any help is much appreciated!

 

KSP ver. 1.7.3

CKAN log - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CS6wkmE1fkWmVM5QA-WsU3Mmt9aFY5Oy

KSP log - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cQPInSIwPstBxT8l1B19xTd7l2-AYG0D

Module Manager log - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1762YokkyoxjAm6G5WYfP79hpjMLF7IC4

Any other info needed?

 

 

[Brigadier]

46 minutes ago, Pershgn said:

Second; and I think this is just me being dumb; I can't seem to get any workshop to actually function, no matter how I go about it I'm told 0 workforce. At first i was convinced the Scout Landers workshop functionality was broken, but after playing (trying to) with both the Ranger and Tundra workshops in sandbox I realize I can't seem to get workforce or functionality from any of them. Bug, conflict, or dumb?

Maybe a silly question, but do you have Kerbals in your modules?

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Foxxonius Augustus said:

I mean Micromanagement =/= Balance. If it is overpowered and annoying to use guess what, people will feel like they have to use it and be annoyed when they do. Better to just balance the system in the first place.

Encouraging interactivity =/= micromanagement.  I respect that you disagree with how the stock system is balanced, but I have no interest in putting in a part that breaks stock balance.

[kellven]

Really don't desire more argument today, but they're absolutely right, using QoL as a game balance tool is just plain the wrong answer. Always.

I've always thought the whole research implementation was gimmicky, clunky, and just didn't belong with the rest of the game, but nobody asked me. It served well enough as an early placeholder for a system to get players to go places with an in-game incentive, but at the time, I assumed it would be replaced with something more...organic to the game systems. Instead it seems to have simply stuck around so long it's now canonical.

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, kellven said:

Really don't desire more argument today, but they're absolutely right, using QoL as a game balance tool is just plain the wrong answer. Always.

I've always thought the whole research implementation was gimmicky, clunky, and just didn't belong with the rest of the game, but nobody asked me. It served well enough as an early placeholder for a system to get players to go places with an in-game incentive, but at the time, I assumed it would be replaced with something more...organic to the game systems. Instead it seems to have simply stuck around so long it's now canonical.

QoL was not the lever,  interactivity was.  Given that in stock, time is not a lever due to timewarp.  In any case, this horse has been beaten to death.  And rest assured, I will add no part that removes stock constraints.  Feel free to Module Manage to your heart's content.

[DoktorKrogg]

19 hours ago, Pershgn said:

I can't seem to get any workshop to actually function, no matter how I go about it I'm told 0 workforce. At first i was convinced the Scout Landers workshop functionality was broken, but after playing (trying to) with both the Ranger and Tundra workshops in sandbox I realize I can't seem to get workforce or functionality from any of them.

We need some clarification on what 'functioning' means here. The workshops have multiple personalities. They can be used to manufacture things and they can be used to build vessels on location with Global Construction. You mentioned workforce which is a GC thing (I think), so you might want to head over to the thread for that mod to get more information on how it works. It's a little bit unintuitive so reading the instructions is a big help in this case.

[Pershgn]

I don't have kerbals in the workshop, but only because when I try transferring them to the workshop I get denied with a message saying the part has no personal inventory space.

As far as functioning, I was really just aiming to start exploring each function. I had been trying to figure out manufacture though, I haven't tried using the workshop with the kits for ship building, assumed I would first have to figure out how to get in the thing. 

Maybe I will have to head over to GC and dig a little more, i'm obviously missing something very simple and important. May also have to drop a few mods and add them back one by one so I'm more sure exactly what parts and functions are coming from what mods.

[Terwin]

20 minutes ago, Pershgn said:

I don't have kerbals in the workshop, but only because when I try transferring them to the workshop I get denied with a message saying the part has no personal inventory space.

Then take the items out of your kerbal's inventory so that you can transfer them.  This is a warning from KIS that you will lose items if you move the kerbal as indicated.(inflatable parts cannot have internal inventory, so this warning was added to keep you from losing important bits of inventory)

GC only counts engineers inside of a GC workshop part for contributing to a construction project, so no engineers means no progress on constructing kits.

MKS will count the most experienced engineering kerbal on the vessel, but you can only gain a benefit from that single engineer, whereas GC lets you use as many engineers as you can fit into the workshop parts.

[Pershgn]

OK, I have that bit figured, for some reason I had to transfer out the crew member with inventory before I could transfer the engi in the pod with him into the workshop, I am making material kits now and know what I need to do. Thanks much everyone!

 

Back to the other question though, is the Scout landers workshop function broken given it has zero crew capacity? Would fixing this be as simple as copying the crew module from one of the other workshop part .cfg's into the scout cfg? Or am I missing the way its meant to be used? 

Oh, and also is anyone aware if the ranger lab missing in sci career needs to be reported here, gc, or ctt? Or am I being dumb somewhere again, Im well past the adv construction node but its not there.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pershgn

[Wyzard]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:26 PM, kellven said:

I've always thought the whole research implementation was gimmicky, clunky, and just didn't belong with the rest of the game, but nobody asked me. It served well enough as an early placeholder for a system to get players to go places with an in-game incentive, but at the time, I assumed it would be replaced with something more...organic to the game systems. Instead it seems to have simply stuck around so long it's now canonical.

I've long wished for a mod that would remove the stock lab mechanics entirely, and replace it with simply: labs increase an experiment's "transmit" science value to be the same as the "recover on Kerbin" value.  The idea would be that the scientists in the lab do the same hands-on analysis that the scientists back on Kerbin would do, and transmit their findings back home along with the raw experiment data.  That would be a lot more straightforward, and would work better with mods like [x]Science that look at what's been transmitted/recovered.  I dont't think such a mod exists, though; I've never heard of one.

[RoverDude]

@Wyzard - You can get a lot of what you just asked for with antennas   We decided to always have antennas behave as a buff vs a penalty.  It should pop up as you prepare to transmit.