totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[jd284]

1 hour ago, Kobymaru said:

On my base, all drills stop working when the vessels are loaded. That is really annoying. Is there a fix or workaround for that?

Works fine here now, although I had the same problem a while ago. The reason was that the base did a little hop on load and the drills lost ground contact and stopped. Simply mounting them a little lower fixed that.

I think you'll have to try and find the reason the drills turn off, try to open their part menu before physics kicks in and there may be a clue like "no ground contact" or overtemperature and whatnot.

[voicey99]

On Page 7 you can find a link to a prerelease MKS version Rover uploaded, this version (PRE2 certainly, not sure about PRE1) features ground tethers as a clickable that lock the craft in place firmly enough to eliminate physics hops entirely. It is beta though, but might be coming through into a main patch soon if you are prepared to wait for any potential bugs to get squished.

[Kobymaru]

20 minutes ago, jd284 said:

Works fine here now, although I had the same problem a while ago. The reason was that the base did a little hop on load and the drills lost ground contact and stopped. Simply mounting them a little lower fixed that.

I think you'll have to try and find the reason the drills turn off, try to open their part menu before physics kicks in and there may be a clue like "no ground contact" or overtemperature and whatnot.

Well yeah, recently, all vessels make a 10m Hop, then get set down to the ground one after another before the physics kicks in. I'm not even sure if that's a mod or stock KSP, but it seems to be on purpose and a workaround for physics insufficiencies. So I don't think mounting it lower will help

And it seems indeed that this is the reason for the drills stopping. Thanks for the hint! Now I just need to know what causes this..

 

15 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

On Page 7 you can find a link to a prerelease MKS version Rover uploaded, this version (PRE2 certainly, not sure about PRE1) features ground tethers as a clickable that lock the craft in place firmly enough to eliminate physics hops entirely. It is beta though, but might be coming through into a main patch soon if you are prepared to wait for any potential bugs to get squished.

Unfortunately, the patch does not solve my problem. While physics easing is in progress, the base is still 10m up in the air and the drills have "No Ground Contact".

That is great news however, because my base has been sliding 4 mm/s down a slope. That sounds little, but is not nice considering I have carefully placed all modules around a 3-Biome corner. I used to tie them down with a KIS CB1 Ground base, but hopefully this will be a thing of the past.

 

[Tyko]

13 hours ago, Wyzard said:

I was wondering about that too — I have concentrations of both RareMetals and ExoticMinerals in the grassland just to the west of the KSC flats.  Apparently they're not especially rare or exotic. 

LOL...perhaps the "rare and exotic" materials around KSC are actually just parts of all the failed launches that Kerbals tend to excel at. It's really just Bob walking around and picking things up.

[voicey99]

@Kobymaru Are you sure you've actually attached the tethers? Assuming you have PRE1/2 (page 6, sorry) installed, the option to do so is in the rightclick menu of any MKS module.

[dboi88]

@voicey99 His bases are being lifted and then placed down one by one, most importantly before physics kicks in. So the ground tether i'd guess would have no effect until physics kicks in.

@Kobymaru That's definitely not stock, i'd start with going through your mods and see if any of them do this. 

edit: i can't be sure of that

Edited January 11, 2017 by dboi88

[Kobymaru]

4 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

@Kobymaru Are you sure you've actually attached the tethers? Assuming you have PRE1/2 (page 6, sorry) installed, the option to do so is in the rightclick menu of any MKS module.

Yes, I have the "Toggle Ground Tether" option available. If I press it, I get "Ground tether attached!". If I quicksave, then quickload, I'm still 10m in the air.

Here are pictures:

Spoiler

During Physics Loading

After Physics Loading

 

[voicey99]

I think the ground tether works by effectively disabling physics for all MKS parts on the vessel, locking them and all attached parts in place. My base used to do a stock physicshop of a couple of feet, but after installing the tethers it didn't get more than a fraction of an inch before being yanked back down to the ground before it went anywhere. Tethers are way more powerful than needed to anchor a small base moving at 1.17mm/s, so that and the enormous physicshop suggest another mod is overriding the tethering system. If you give me a save and a modlist I can test that.

Either that or the patch is showing the fact that it is still highly experimental and released as essentially an emergency hotfix.

Edited January 11, 2017 by voicey99

[Kobymaru]

11 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

I think the ground tether works by effectively disabling physics for all MKS parts on the vessel, locking them and all attached parts in place. My base used to do a stock physicshop of a couple of feet, but after installing the tethers it didn't get more than a fraction of an inch before being yanked back down to the ground before it went anywhere.

Mind you, it's not a physical hop. The game loads the scene, the vessels are started in the air *before* physics. Then the vessels get set down, and *then* the physics start. By that time, no more hopping.

But apparently the drills start doing their thing before physics start doing their thing, which means the drills are fooled into believing that the vessel is flying.

 

11 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

If you give me a save and a modlist I can test that.

Yay, thanks! Minimal mod list:

- CommunityCategoryKit 1.2.1.0
- CommunityResourcePack 0.6.5.0
- FirespitterCore v7.5.1
- KAS 0.6.2.0
- KIS 1.4.0.0
- Konstruction 0.1.9.0
- KSPSteamCtrlr autodetected dll
- ModuleManager 2.7.5
- Steamworks autodetected dll
- UKS 1:0.50.11.0
- USI-Core 0.3.6.0
- USI-LS 0.5.16.0
- USITools 0.8.9.0

Save: 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1414175/ksp/quicksave-10m-start.sfs

 

11 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Either that or the patch is showing the fact that it is still highly experimental and released as essentially an emergency hotfix.

Well the 10m jump happens in both the hotfix patch as well as the official release (0.50.11).

[tseitsei89]

One final message to everyone arguing that PL mechanic is currently realistic. Then I'll stop cluttering the thread and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings that wasnt my intention.

But think about the following situation:

Bill is living in a mining base and Jeb is a pilot in the main base.

Bill: Hey Jeb we are running very low on supplies and will run out of those in a week. Could you send us some more?

Jeb: Nah. I only have 15000 supplies (so enough for many years of consumption) but my warehouse can fit 16000 so you'll just have to wait.

Bill: what Jeb?! We are actually starving in here!

Jeb: well tough luck. Just deal with it.

Bill: *starves to death*

 

Sounds realistic to you? 

Yeah. I didn't think so...

Edited January 11, 2017 by tseitsei89

[benad]

3 minutes ago, tseitsei89 said:

One final message to everyone arguing that PL mechanic is currently realistic. Then I'll stop cluttering the thread and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings that wasnt my intention.

But think about the following situation:

Bill is living in a mining base and Jeb is a pilot in the main base.

Bill: Hey Jeb we are running very low on supplies and will run out of those in a week. Could you send us some more?

Jeb: Nah. I only have 15000 supplies (so enough for many years of consumption) but my warehouse can fit 16000 so you'll just have to wait.

Bill: what Jeb?! We are actually starving in here!

Jeb: well tough luck. Just deal with it.

Bill: *starves to death*

 

Sounds realistic to you? 

Yeah. I didn't think so...

So Bill get's in his rover, drives for 2 weeks, is still only halfway there and Jeb's already dead . . . . 

I think we can put this one to bed now.

[jd284]

22 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

Mind you, it's not a physical hop. The game loads the scene, the vessels are started in the air *before* physics. Then the vessels get set down, and *then* the physics start. By that time, no more hopping.

But apparently the drills start doing their thing before physics start doing their thing, which means the drills are fooled into believing that the vessel is flying.

If you figure it out, let me know. I had to abandon another base on the Moon (RSS) because of this. Can you check your debug screen and see if a message like "ground contact! - error: -4.920m" is there. At least then we're talking about the same thing.

I thought it was an issue related to RSS or Kopernicus though, but if it happens on Duna it'd be worth investigating to see if it is actually a stock issue.

In my case, after some investigation I found out that this "hop" appears to be an error in the height map. The base always loaded at the height of the top corner of the ground "tile" it was sitting on, and then teleported to the ground after the ground contact error message. So the further it was away from that corner the more severe the hop was, and of course also the steeper the slope also made it worse.

[Kobymaru]

7 minutes ago, jd284 said:

If you figure it out, let me know. I had to abandon another base on the Moon (RSS) because of this. Can you check your debug screen and see if a message like "ground contact! - error: -4.920m" is there. At least then we're talking about the same thing.

Yes, I do have this.I do have several  "ground contact! - error:" errors for each of my vessels. The one in question has an error of -3.739m which is both consistent with the visual height when starting (see pictures) and the heigh difference from 4295m to 4291m.

 

7 minutes ago, jd284 said:

I thought it was an issue related to RSS or Kopernicus though, but if it happens on Duna it'd be worth investigating to see if it is actually a stock issue.

I think it is a stock issue indeed.  No RSS or Kopernicus installed.

I think a simple fix would be to defer all the Drills processing to *after* the physics loading. This might not be fixable in MKS, but the good news is that @RoverDude is a SQUAD developer as well   All we can do is provide nice and simple test cases, create a bug report on the public tracker and politely but firmly ask RoverDudes attention

 

7 minutes ago, jd284 said:

In my case, after some investigation I found out that this "hop" appears to be an error in the height map. The base always loaded at the height of the top corner of the ground "tile" it was sitting on, and then teleported to the ground after the ground contact error message. So the further it was away from that corner the more severe the hop was, and of course also the steeper the slope also made it worse.

I have worked quite hard to get find a good base spot and set up the base, so I am very reluctant to move the base to a flatter area (especially since 3-biome crossings with water are very rare on Duna). Can you think of a good workaround?

[dboi88]

1 minute ago, Kobymaru said:

I have worked quite hard to get find a good base spot and set up the base, so I am very reluctant to move the base to a flatter area (especially since 3-biome crossings with water are very rare on Duna). Can you think of a good workaround?

Best solution I can think of would be to set all drills to action group to easily switch them back on. Unless this is also causing the catch up to think the drills weren't running at all while it was unfocused? If that's the case there is probably nothing you could do until a fix is found.

[jd284]

8 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

I have worked quite hard to get find a good base spot and set up the base, so I am very reluctant to move the base to a flatter area (especially since 3-biome crossings with water are very rare on Duna). Can you think of a good workaround?

I'm afraid my workaround was to abandon the spot and find something flatter.

If I'm bored this weekend I might try to take your savegame and remove all non-stock parts from the base and then see if the problem is still there. And if so report it on the Squad tracker.

7 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

Unless this is also causing the catch up to think the drills weren't running at all while it was unfocused? If that's the case there is probably nothing you could do until a fix is found.

Yes, during catch-up the base is in the air. So there'll be no background production like this.

[voicey99]

@Kobymaru So i've tested your base out and the contact errors I get are tiny, with almost all ~5cm. The only appreciable error is for one of the KIS kontainers sitting around, at -1m. The tether button has been renamed to dampener, and none of them seem to engaged on your base (or did they just not carry over with the wall of text you gave me that i had to copypaste into notepad?). The Ascent Vehicle, which is 90% stock, gets an error of ~7mm.

And @jd284 that isn't really possible, its almost entirely made up of MKS and KIS parts.

Edited January 11, 2017 by voicey99

[dboi88]

Just now, jd284 said:

If I'm bored this weekend I might try to take your savegame and remove all non-stock parts from the base and then see if the problem is still there. And if so report it on the Squad tracker.

An easier check would be to Hyperedit a stock base to the same location. Any landed craft should experience the same hop. I'm convinced you guys have the answer here.

@Kobymaru try turning up terrain settings?

[Kobymaru]

27 minutes ago, jd284 said:

If I'm bored this weekend I might try to take your savegame and remove all non-stock parts from the base and then see if the problem is still there. And if so report it on the Squad tracker.

Don't bother, like voicey99 said, it's almost entirely MKS and KIS parts. But thanks for offering

 

Quote

Yes, during catch-up the base is in the air. So there'll be no background production like this.

Well, this bug I would call rather game breaking  . Not a whole lot of point in setting up drilling operations if the drills don't catch up during timewarp.

 

Quote

The tether button has been renamed to dampener, and none of them seem to engaged on your base (or did they just not carry over with the wall of text you gave me that i had to copypaste into notepad?).

Huh? Which wall of text are you referring to?

Also, I'm confused now because I don't have a "dampener" button in my 0.50.11 release which seems to the latest. Do you have a different version? Did I screw up my install? Either way, that's less important than...

 

25 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

@Kobymaru So i've tested your base out and the contact errors I get are tiny, with almost all ~5cm. The only appreciable error is for one of the KIS kontainers sitting around, at -1m.

Thanks for testing and thanks for the Info!!

The problem here is the Terrain Detail setting.

I had my terrain detail set to "Default" (running on a laptop with integrated graphics)  When on "Default", I get errors up to 10m. When the detail setting is on "High", the highest errors are at 0.03m.

That means after loading and re-saving my save, the base doesn't jump anymore, and the Drills keep running.

Great work with all the info here, guys! Thanks to @dboi88, @jd284 and @voicey99 for help. Sounds like that's definitely a Stock Bug and should be reported. I will try to do a nice write-up and create a Bug report on the public tracker tomorrow (unless you guys want to go first?) and post the link here.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Kobymaru

[mcortez]

I'm at work at the mom with limited access, but if there isn't already a "tips" page on the wiki -- it might be helpful to document this terrain detail tip, and the rescue pod validator mods in there.

[Parmenio]

1 hour ago, tseitsei89 said:

One final message to everyone arguing that PL mechanic is currently realistic. Then I'll stop cluttering the thread and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings that wasnt my intention.

But think about the following situation:

Bill is living in a mining base and Jeb is a pilot in the main base.

Bill: Hey Jeb we are running very low on supplies and will run out of those in a week. Could you send us some more?

Jeb: Sure, Bill. This is easy. All we have to do is get that @tseitsei89 to use local logistics to transfer a couple thousand my 15000 supplies to planetary logistics and you will automagically get supplies at your mining base. 

Bill: Thanks, Jeb! I'll be sure to send back my, um, "mulch" once I have some extra. 

[voicey99]

@Kobymaru The file you dropboxed was the contents of your save file consisting of thousands of lines of config code, not the file itself. No matter, it worked fine as a save after being copypasted into a notepad file called persistent.sfs.

On a side note, I wonder what it is in my usual compliment of mods that makes bases so fps-destroying, since your base ran perfectly smooth with the barebones modlist, but as soon as I loaded it up with the full lot it crashed to 5fps but ran smooth everywhere else (outside of local logistics range)

Still, back to logistics. The 2km logistics range by the rover modules seems pretty small, since that's just a couple of minutes' drive. Maybe buff it to 5km so it can perform an intermediate function between 150m scavenging and planetary logistics?

[LatiMacciato]

There is actually not really a need for a savegame at all, but for reproduction purposes wich I provide that in an issue ticket on github

9 hours ago, voicey99 said:

As I am also having this bug (just with the ME-100. the other two are fine), I'm going to provide my own screenshot and save as well.

this is reproducable now (see issue ticket)

8 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

I have been getting this for a long time and also some square smoke in the plume of certain rocket engines. Curious to know, are you using smokescreen, real plumes? In my case I always assumed the bug was with them (with no real evidence though).

no real plumes installed (just MKS latest stable/Hyperedit in my savegame)

8 hours ago, voicey99 said:

Neither. I imagine it's just a missing particle texture.

possible, like the game tries to load and load and causes that FPS drop too (as a side-effect).

Regards and ty for your time!

Edited January 11, 2017 by LatiMacciato

[Kobymaru]

4 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

@Kobymaru The file you dropboxed was the contents of your save file consisting of thousands of lines of config code, not the file itself.

That's just DropBox being silly. I copied it into my folder and got the public link. You could have just "saved the web page" with your browser.

 

Quote

On a side note, I wonder what it is in my usual compliment of mods that makes bases so fps-destroying, since your base ran perfectly smooth with the barebones modlist, but as soon as I loaded it up with the full lot it crashed to 5fps but ran smooth everywhere else (outside of local logistics range)

Interesting, but runs "fine" (as fine as it gets with a laptop with integrated graphics) on my computer, even with my full mod list. Here  is my fully mod list:

- AlternateResourcePanel v2.9.1.0
- AtmosphereAutopilot v1.5.9
- B9PartSwitch v1.5.3
- CommunityCategoryKit 1.2.1.0
- CommunityResourcePack 0.6.5.0
- CommunityTechTree 1:3.0.3
- DockingPortAlignmentIndicator 6.5
- EasyVesselSwitch 1.2.0.0
- FirespitterCore v7.5.1
- KAS 0.6.2.0
- KerbalAlarmClock v3.8.3.0
- KerbalEngineerRedux 1.1.2.8
- KerbalInventorySystemNoFun v0.1.2
- KIS 1.4.0.0
- Konstruction 0.1.9.0
- KSPSteamCtrlr autodetected dll
- MemGraph Release_1.1.0.3
- ModuleManager 2.7.5
- NearFutureElectrical 0.8.2
- NearFutureElectrical-Core 0.8.2
- PreciseManeuver 2:2.2.2
- Steamworks autodetected dll
- Toolbar 1.7.13
- Trajectories v1.6.5
- UKS 1:0.50.11.0
- USI-Core 0.3.6.0
- USI-FTT 0.6.5.0
- USI-LS 0.5.16.0
- USITools 0.8.9.0
- VesselMoverContinued 1.5.1.3
- WaypointManager 2.6.0

Maybe it helps you to narrow down the culprit by subtracting my mods from your mods.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Kobymaru

[Rook]

***SOLVED***

Heya gents, I'm having some trouble getting some Ranger modules inflated on the Mun. I'm getting the "not enough MaterialKits" when attempting to deploy the modules. I shipped out an FTT container with MaterialKits and a few of the radial attachment supply bags with Machinery and other bits, followed by a Lander and Karibou rover with the actual Base components (Ranger Inflatable hab and an Agroponics module), as well as some other bits and pieces (expand-o-tubes, ground pylons, etc.).  I'm including a screenshot of what's up there. Those FTT containers are holding 12,000 units of MaterialKits. All of these components are connected via tubes and/or pipes.

Spoiler

What gives? Am I doing this wrong?

Ah, some additional info:

KSP 1.2.2

USI MKS 0.5.11

and some other mods. I can list them if yall think I might have something incompatible.

 

UPDATE (Problem solved): Brought some of the MKS containers (w/ Warehouse ability) to the Base, attached them to the FTT containers (just so I could easily transfer the materials), and as soon as enough MaterialKits were transferred into the MKS containers, the Deployment started working. My guess is that those modules didn't recognize the storage of the vessel as a viable source for the material kits when deploying. Live and learn. 

 - Rook

Edited January 12, 2017 by Rook

[Amnesy]

hey, 
in my current 1.2.2 save the Ranger Greenhouse Module set to Cultivate(D) claims it is missing water, even though I have some in storage. (See pic)
Any ideas what might be causing that and how I could fix it?

thanks!