[1.4.x] BDArmory Continued v1.2.2.2 [8/8/2018] + Vessel Mover, Camera Tools, BDMk22, Destruction Effects, Burn Together

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

7 hours ago, Deathpuff12 said:

The Super Hornet seems to be the only craft with the problem,

Hi, i'm going to have to scroll back a bit here.    RE the above,  are you now saying that the issue has afflicted all aircraft?

I 'd ask for logs but. there's nothing yelling broken in the logs  from my tests in a very similar environment

i downloaded your craft and it displays some very odd behavior, (as a result of the clipped cockpits perhaps) and you  have asked it to do something then , to me it seems,  made it difficult to do it in a timely fashion by limiting it's angle of attack to 17.5 degrees and that is almost half the default value and seems from a quick bit of digging more appropriate to a passenger jet than a fighter  .  I'm not a KSP BDA Aircraft expert,  but that seems very restrictive.   

Perhaps some input from an accredited (knows more than me)   aircraft builder is needed here,  because this does not look right. 

Spoiler

PS thanks for having the AI and WM located where i could find them

Edited October 19, 2017 by SpannerMonkey(smce)
1 million rewrites

[Deathpuff12]

The issue with the craft pulling up too hard does appear to affect all craft.

For the clipped cockpits, I've never had a problem with that before, and the issues do seem to affect all craft.

The AoA is set at 17.5 to keep it from pulling hard maneuvers and losing too much speed. The real Super Hornet can reach a much higher AoA, but the AI isn't as smart as a real pilot, and I don't trust it to not stall and become a sitting duck.

I don't think the problem stems from this, as the jet is actually pulling up too much, and other aircraft (with different max AoAs) have the same problem. But, I'll try changing it to rule that out as a cause.

EDIT: Just tested these things. There was no change in anything. The jet still goes straight up if the default altitude is set high, and it still does a flip when bombing if the altitude is set over ~3km.

I even tested another craft, my MiG-21, to see if it does the same thing, and it does. I feel like this is a problem with the code, because almost every craft I test seems to react the same way. The MiG-21 can handle the near-vertical climb, but many jets don't have a 1.00+ TWR.

I made a video showing the two problems. I may have cut the first part a little too short, but all that really happens after the end of it is the MiG flipping over and trying another run.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Deathpuff12
Trillions of edits

[DoctorDavinci]

@Deathpuff12 - I took a look at your craft and noticed a few issues with it that could be the core of the problem you are having

In the above picture you will see a purple line representing your center of thrust and it's vector and blue lines representing your center of lift and it's angular relation to both the purple line of the CoT as well as the center of mass

The problem you are experiencing stems from the design of this craft ... Let me explain

Think about it in a mechanical sense where the purple line is a steel bar which connects to another steel bar where the green line intersects with it. Now this second steel bar only goes to the center of mass of the craft at which point there is a hinge that has yet another steel bar which connects to the center of lift

If you now apply force to the bar where the engine is (the bars are represented by the red line) ... Essentially you have two unbalanced points of force and a hinge set between them

A general rule when building aircraft in KSP is to have the CoL behind the CoM ... Not slightly off top dead center like you have it

My suggestion is to raise the eingines up to make your CoT come in line with your CoM as well as adjust your wings so as to bring your CoL down and behind the CoM ... Start with the blue ball directly behind the yellow ball just barely touching and go from there

BDAc isn't the problem

Good luck ... hope this helps

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by DoctorDavinci

[Deathpuff12]

Please don't patronize me. I know how to build aircraft; I have hundreds of hours in KSP.

Look at the differences you're pointing out. The CoL is slightly above and behind the CoM, leading to a slight tilt downward, which is greatly diminished by the offset CoT. So, the Super Hornet has a slight downward tilt, which is not a problem at all for SAS and shouldn't be a problem for the AI pilot.

There is no doubt in my mind that the problem doesn't stem from the aircraft design. If you look at the video I posted, which I use a completely different craft in, the results are exactly the same as I've described. The MiG-21 has its CoL, CoM, and CoT in an almost perfectly straight line, and it's just as stable as, if not more than, my Super Hornet. In fact, I've tested the problem with every other jet I have made. It is a problem for every single one of them.

I'm going to post an issue on the GitHub. Sorry for wasting your time trying to explain it here; I should have posted the issue on GitHub before I even mentioned it here.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Deathpuff12

[DoctorDavinci]

8 minutes ago, Deathpuff12 said:

Please don't patronize me. I know how to build aircraft; I have hundreds of hours in KSP.

Dude, just trying to help ... giving you some tips from a long time BDA aircraft builder

Obviously you know better than me so I will leave you to it

Good luck

[Deathpuff12]

8 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Dude, just trying to help ... giving you some tips from a long time BDA aircraft builder

Obviously you know better than me so I will leave you to it

Good luck

I'm sorry if that was rude or harsh. It's just that SpannerMonkey has been relentlessly maintaining his idea that it's my fault, and then you came and said the same thing. If you haven't seen the video I posted, I suggest you watch it; the craft in the video is actually pretty much perfectly balanced, and it still has the problems I've been describing.

The issue isn't a very major one, but it's an issue nonetheless. I don't mean to be mean, but I feel like I'm being misunderstood or maybe even rejected, and I feel like I need to defend myself.

I've seen discussions descend into arguments, and I don't want that to happen to me.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Deathpuff12

[DoctorDavinci]

20 minutes ago, Deathpuff12 said:

I'm sorry if that was rude or harsh.

Not a problem ... What I explained above is the general guidelines to building aircraft in KSP and was not meant to patronize you

I understand that you may have hundreds of hours in but the above guidelines comes from thousands upon thousands of hours by many KSP players even more experienced than myself (I must have 10 thousand in by now)

I was just passing on the information about best practices in KSP aircraft design ... You can make anything fly in KSP but making it fly well requires aerodynamically sound design

[Deathpuff12]

1 minute ago, DoctorDavinci said:

I was just passing on the information about best practices in KSP aircraft design ... You can make anything fly in KSP but making it fly well requires aerodynamically sound design

Oh yes, I know. There's actually a very well-made guide that I like to refer to from time to time:

I've read it several times, because it has a lot of helpful information to go through. From the guide, I gather that the two forces (CoL being slightly above and behind CoM and CoT being slightly below CoM) would counteract each other. In flight, this seems to be the case, as the F/A-18 seems to have a slight pitch down without SAS on, and, despite that, it performs very well and it's very stable.

I'm no expert, and I certainly haven't spent time studying the best practices for building aircraft, but I've seen a couple guides and I've learned through experience, and many of my jets perform very well in my eyes.

[TheMelonofTruth]

18 minutes ago, Deathpuff12 said:

Oh yes, I know. There's actually a very well-made guide that I like to refer to from time to time:

I've read it several times, because it has a lot of helpful information to go through. From the guide, I gather that the two forces (CoL being slightly above and behind CoM and CoT being slightly below CoM) would counteract each other. In flight, this seems to be the case, as the F/A-18 seems to have a slight pitch down without SAS on, and, despite that, it performs very well and it's very stable.

I'm no expert, and I certainly haven't spent time studying the best practices for building aircraft, but I've seen a couple guides and I've learned through experience, and many of my jets perform very well in my eyes.

Try doing a run with BDA's debug labels turned on. If it pulls up as a collision avoidance then you've got the same problem I have. Which has persisted even with a fresh install, with only correct-to-version mods.

I think it's a mod interaction because it doesn't seem to affect me in stock, although I need to test some more before I bother SM with it again.

EDIT: Also try doing a run while watching from a different craft parked off the runway, I've found the collision avoidance problem doesn't happen to vehicles I don't have selected.

Edited October 20, 2017 by TheMelonofTruth

[Deathpuff12]

13 minutes ago, TheMelonofTruth said:

If it pulls up as a collision avoidance then you've got the same problem I have.

I re-watched this video, and I can't see anything indicating a collision avoidance.

On 10/19/2017 at 11:02 AM, Deathpuff12 said:

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Deathpuff12

[TheMelonofTruth]

3 minutes ago, Deathpuff12 said:

I re-watched this video, and I can't see any thing indicating a collision avoidance.

 

That sure is weird.

Try doing it while watching from another vehicle though, BDAs autopilot seems to have strange issues with flying aircraft you are currently focused on. When I view things from a rover on the ground, my collision avoidance problems go away, as do my random fly forever disengage problems.

The only solid solution seems to be stock KSP + BDAc + Nothing else.

[Deathpuff12]

Yeah, I've done it without anything else. I just tested it watching from the target on the ground, and nada. Same problem. I stand by my assumption that it's something wrong with the AI pilot or guard mode.

[TheMelonofTruth]

2 minutes ago, Deathpuff12 said:

Yeah, I've done it without anything else. I just tested it watching from the target on the ground, and nada. Same problem. I stand by my assumption that it's something wrong with the AI pilot or guard mode.

I've got a feeling it might be too. I've have the same issue with the pulling-up to bomb that you described. I just assumed the AI was programmed to lob-bomb for safety since my bombing runs usually succeeded.

If I manage to fix my issues I'll come back and tell you about it, but I don't think it'll apply for you since I'm focusing on finding whatever mod interaction I assume is screwing with BDAc

[Deathpuff12]

4 minutes ago, TheMelonofTruth said:

I've got a feeling it might be too. I've have the same issue with the pulling-up to bomb that you described. I just assumed the AI was programmed to lob-bomb for safety since my bombing runs usually succeeded.

If I manage to fix my issues I'll come back and tell you about it, but I don't think it'll apply for you since I'm focusing on finding whatever mod interaction I assume is screwing with BDAc

It's nice to see I'm not the only one that has experienced this!

As for your issue, you may want to create an issue on GitHub, if you haven't already. That way, you can be sure that pretty much everyone involved with BDA will know about it.

 

[Galane]

Might be related to the issue where BDA ignores the altitude limit, sending one jet running straight up with another chasing it, either until one or both run out of fuel, or the air is too thin for jet engines.

[jrodriguez]

Hi all,

I have published a new release of Camera Tools, you can dowload it from here  https://github.com/jrodrigv/CameraTools/releases/tag/v1.9.0

v1.9.0

• Compatibility with KSP 1.3.1
• Fixing Dogfighting camera for BDArmory

[Andrewwang66]

Hey, um not sure if it's for sure a problem with BDAc but I'm missing the BDA tab in the editor part list... any clues on why that's happening? Any info would be much appreciated, I am running these mods: 

EDIT: Alright, just went back through 6 pages of posts, figured it out, I need the pre-release version instead...

Edited October 21, 2017 by Andrewwang66

[DoctorDavinci]

21 minutes ago, Andrewwang66 said:

Hey, um not sure if it's for sure a problem with BDAc but I'm missing the BDA tab in the editor part list... any clues on why that's happening? Any info would be much appreciated, I am running these mods: 

KSP version?

If you're using KSP v1.3.1 then you need to grab the beta as BDAc v0.3.0.0 is for KSP v1.3.0

You can get the beta here:

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by DoctorDavinci

[gomker]

@Deathpuff12 Et Al. In regards to BDA Autopilot

For some historical context on this code it pretty much has not changed since it was first implemented by Baha and Ferram (the dude who made FAR ( I should just probably put this in the wiki too as this comes up a lot )).  To be honest , we are not all that familiar with how it works  

We of course will do our best to fix any issues however, the code may be showing its age, its a miracle its lasted this long through KSP changes, a testament to Ferram's skills.
I can tell you that looks to have been initially coded for Air To Air Combat. While it did so some ground combat , you can tell its bad at it. This is definitely something I would like fixed too as I do a lot of Air/Ground/Boat scenarios.

Currently we are in a code sprint for Radar updates (theDog) and Damage/Armor refactor (myself and JR)  When these are complete the team will get together and discuss our next set of issues to tackle, which I can tell from https://github.com/PapaJoesSoup/BDArmory/labels/AutoPilot, there are a lot for the AI open.

 

[Azimech]

23 hours ago, jrodriguez said:

Hi all,

I have published a new release of Camera Tools, you can dowload it from here  https://github.com/jrodrigv/CameraTools/releases/tag/v1.9.0

v1.9.0

• Compatibility with KSP 1.3.1
• Fixing Dogfighting camera for BDArmory

Thanks! Great job!

Can I ask for something? The doppler effect has been broken since KSP 1.1 and ... I really miss it.

Doppler effect is part of Unity so it shouldn't be much of a hassle.

[jrodriguez]

1 minute ago, Azimech said:

Thanks! Great job!

Can I ask for something? The doppler effect has been broken since KSP 1.1 and ... I really miss it.

Doppler effect is part of Unity so it shouldn't be much of a hassle.

I tried  to fix it.. But no luck yet

Edited October 22, 2017 by jrodriguez

[Azimech]

3 minutes ago, jrodriguez said:

I tried  to fix it.. But no luck yet

Thanks for trying :-)

[Galane]

I wonder if anything can be done to make B9 Procedural wings more damage resistant? They seem a lot more fragile than stock parts. One hit from a 20mm and *poof*, you're flying on a wing and a prayer, then just a prayer.

[DoctorDavinci]

1 hour ago, Galane said:

I wonder if anything can be done to make B9 Procedural wings more damage resistant? They seem a lot more fragile than stock parts. One hit from a 20mm and *poof*, you're flying on a wing and a prayer, then just a prayer.

Put DCK Aircraft Armor over it 

[Deathpuff12]

6 hours ago, Galane said:

I wonder if anything can be done to make B9 Procedural wings more damage resistant? They seem a lot more fragile than stock parts. One hit from a 20mm and *poof*, you're flying on a wing and a prayer, then just a prayer.

I like to build with procedural wings, and then try to match that using stock wing parts. It can be tricky and it can raise your part count, but it's the only alternative (that I can think of) to putting armor on your wings.