[1.8.x] Kerbal Foundries -- Continued - Tracks, Wheels, and Gear

[Gaalidas]

Just want to come in here and mention how seriously awesome that crane is.

So... on the modeling topic... no, I can't do any of that.  However... if someone could, at the very least, nab those stock wheel models and simply add the geometry to support the extended suspension and what not added by KF, that would be an excellent way to start the expansion of the KF-enabled parts.  It would be a bit better than the old project to simply make configs for the stock wheels.  On top of that, the new stock-modified parts could still be made to seamlessly replace the stock parts at run-time using MM configs so users could plug this mod into their current games and not have to rebuild their vehicles to use the new features.  Just something to mull over.

 

Also... something lo-fi was dabbling with back in the day was landing legs that could be adjusted on the fly... possibly even auto-level/auto-extend to the ground to keep either the craft level with the gravitational down vector, or keep the legs at a specific angle while still resting on the ground properly.  Might be something to take a better look at.

As for the issue of too many controls on the individual wheels and/or key configs and whatnot... that was one reason why I made a GUI to handle some functions of the wheels that didn't need to be part-specific.  What I didn't manage was to make those settings stick to that craft rather than being global changes.  I did have an idea for a part that could be attached somewhere on the craft that could contain action-groups/context menu tweakables for various settings that make little sense being on a specific wheel.  Examples of this might be the turning speed settings that would not work very well if applied differently to a specific wheel.  Another good example might be motor settings and whatnot.  The motor itself should still be part-specific, but the settings for such motors I would think would make more sense being synced for the craft itself.  Alternatively, i had to thought of simply dynamically adding a control module to the root part of the craft, or the main control part if I could get the code to detect that.  It wouldn't work too well when a craft has multiple control parts, or has a root part consisting of a panel in the middle of the craft, but you get the idea.  I never really released any of my WIP code for that.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Gaalidas
I can't stop typing...

[Shadowmage]

20 hours ago, Gaalidas said:

However... if someone could, at the very least, nab those stock wheel models and simply add the geometry to support the extended suspension and what not added by KF, that would be an excellent way to start the expansion of the KF-enabled parts.

Sadly I cannot redistribute modified SQUAD model assets... due to licensing and stuff like that.  However I don't think it would be needed either.  I already have a set of patch files already written to convert the stock parts to using the KSPWheel system, they were actually the parts that I used while developing most of the system.  At this point the patches just need cleaned up and updated for a few of the recent changes to the modules, but shouldn't take too long to get them working again.

 

21 hours ago, Gaalidas said:

Also... something lo-fi was dabbling with back in the day was landing legs that could be adjusted on the fly... possibly even auto-level/auto-extend to the ground to keep either the craft level with the gravitational down vector, or keep the legs at a specific angle while still resting on the ground properly.  Might be something to take a better look at.

Now that I have the zero-length-suspension stuff (mostly) working I should be able to add some rather configurable landing legs.  May end up making a secondary specialized control module for them similar to the ALG module.  Auto-leveling, manual height specification, and locked suspension should all be doable.

 

21 hours ago, Gaalidas said:

As for the issue of too many controls on the individual wheels and/or key configs and whatnot... that was one reason why I made a GUI to handle some functions of the wheels that didn't need to be part-specific.  What I didn't manage was to make those settings stick to that craft rather than being global changes.

The new(ish) VesselModules seem to take care of this fairly well.  Persistence is still a bit of a problem that I haven't figured out yet, but I'm thinking it should be doable in one fashion or another.  Biggest hitches would be when vessels are split or merged through decouplers/docking.  Merging more of a problem than splitting.

Actually spent a bit of time yesterday working on a per-vehicle control GUI.  Brings all the controls from all wheels on the craft into a single centralized GUI; allows for naming of specific wheels (so the user knows which one they are adjusting), changing of wheel grouping, and updating of individual or group settings for all steering, motor, and brakes configurable controls.  Problem is the layout on the GUI is currently a bit of a mess (lots of controls to display), and trying to get any sort of precision out of those GUI controls is also a bit painful (e.g. the sliders do not like to stop at any discrete values; selecting 1.0 is quite difficult as it wants to give you 0.9987 or 1.002345).  Pretty sure I can get it working (and usable) with a bit more effort and code (more code can solve lots of things...).

 

 

In general development news, the work on the new ALG rigging has started.  It is one of the last big things on the 'todo' list, probably the biggest thing left on there.  Have a few days off work later this week, and should hopefully have it all worked out and ready for an updated KF release this weekend.  WARNING:  The new rigging/module setup may not be compatible with the existing rigging/module/models.  Craft using ALG parts might break.  I'll post another warning with the release once I know the extent of what all is changing and what might/might not be compatible.

One other bit that I've been working on this week is a 'water propulsion' module that will be added to many of the tracks and wheels.  This module will allow for enabled parts to output some motive force even when splashed; the amount of force output will depend on how submerged the wheel is, along with contributions depending on the angular velocity and size of the wheel and a config-specified 'efficiency' factor (some wheels may be better paddles than others).  Fully amphibious vehicles (without using jet engines) will be a thing.  Module is written, needs testing and likely a bit of code cleanup / math fixing.

[Svm420]

@Shadowmage

If your open for suggestions I want to suggest the most suggested item from the adjustable landing gear thread. Side/lateral folding landing gear. For me I would want it to be similar to the mig 21 landing gear.  Other suggested like the p51 or spitfire. 

This may sound like an unnecessary extra but no one has made something like that especially not with the great features of ALG,   now KSPWheel/Kerbal Foundries.

I can post pics, but a simple Google search will show what I mean. Thanks for the best wheels on Ksp! 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Svm420

[Madrias]

Given that tracks are notoriously hard to steer in large groups, and that Infernal Robotics joints don't have an auto-return to center, would it be possible to make a steering pivot, something that could be attached to the vehicle either on the track nodes or in the middle for articulation, that would allow heavy vehicles to have a better steering circle?

While steering the tracks may be a bit out there, the one I want is more like you see on heavy construction equipment, like the bucket loaders, that pivot at a central point to steer.

[DirkLarien]

On 2/7/2017 at 0:52 AM, Shadowmage said:

Well, to be fair, the are only 'mostly fixed'.  They work for many craft and setups, but might have stability problems in some cases.

If you do run into any problems with them, please let me know (will likely need logs and a stock/KF craft file to diagnose/debug/fix most problems though).  Otherwise, hope you enjoy them

 

( Added a donate button to the OP/first page; as always, purely optional, and always appreciated )

great thank you again.

Here have a 10 bucks as a thank you.

Edited February 15, 2017 by DirkLarien

[Shadowmage]

3 hours ago, DirkLarien said:

great thank you again.

Here have a 10 bucks as a thank you.

Thanks, much appreciated; glad you are enjoying them

Hoping to have the ALG parts re-rigged for the next release, and should clean up most of the outstanding problems with them due to suspension alignment.

 

22 hours ago, Madrias said:

Given that tracks are notoriously hard to steer in large groups, and that Infernal Robotics joints don't have an auto-return to center, would it be possible to make a steering pivot, something that could be attached to the vehicle either on the track nodes or in the middle for articulation, that would allow heavy vehicles to have a better steering circle?

While steering the tracks may be a bit out there, the one I want is more like you see on heavy construction equipment, like the bucket loaders, that pivot at a central point to steer.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are looking for something like a hip-joint?  Where the tracks and lower portion of the vehicle can be oriented separately from the top portion of the vehicle? 

Sadly that kind of stuff is firmly in the realm of IR -- anything that involves moving multiple attached parts is outside of the capabilities of KSPWheel, but already handled by IR.

If I'm not understanding you correctly, please enlighten me

 

23 hours ago, Svm420 said:

@Shadowmage

If your open for suggestions I want to suggest the most suggested item from the adjustable landing gear thread. Side/lateral folding landing gear. For me I would want it to be similar to the mig 21 landing gear.  Other suggested like the p51 or spitfire. 

This may sound like an unnecessary extra but no one has made something like that especially not with the great features of ALG,   now KSPWheel/Kerbal Foundries.

I can post pics, but a simple Google search will show what I mean. Thanks for the best wheels on Ksp! 

 

The problems with parts such as those is the asymmetrical models that are needed.  In order for them to be done properly you need separate models for the left and right sides, which basically doubles the modeling work needed and increases the code-side complexity greatly.

Might be doable now though as I've worked through some methods to do similar for some of the track parts.  No clue if it would be compatible with the ALG modules and rigging style though; might be just a standard stock-style 'landing gear'.  Will look into it at some point in the future, but will likely be a few months out before I'll have much time for modeling of new parts.  If you know of existing models that are abandoned and open-source licensed, I would consider re-rigging them and merging them in with KF.

Good suggestion though, will add it onto the 'todo / to-investigate' lists

 

 

Yesterday/last night was spent rewriting the ALG module and re-rigging the models for new suspension handling mechanics.  Ughh.... is about the only word for it.  The rigging needed for the deploy/retract setup conflicts with the rigging needed for the suspension mechanics.  Now I fully understand why the models were rigged the way they were originally, and why the plugin code for them was as crazy as it was.  There was reason behind the madness.

Have it mostly working though.  Really only required adding one additional transform to the rigging, but increased the plugin code for the animation and constraints considerably.  Still have a few more options to investigate on different ways of handling it that should make it more stable/robust/adaptable.  The current methods in use work, but are extremely fragile, and more complex than I would like; any minor changes to the update ordering and the entire thing breaks down, and it will be nearly impossible to do any alterations or adaptations for it.

In the process of figuring out the rigging I did write up a full constraints module.  Rotation, Position, Look-at, and axis-locked-look-at all working.  Should enable me to remove the stock constraints module from existing parts, and will bring additional compatibility with welded parts or single parts using multiple same-named transforms in the constraints (or any part using multiple MODEL nodes to add multiple wheels/legs/gear to the part).

[0111narwhalz]

Hmm...I may have something for the "return to center" problem. Something large and mechanical.
Hint: It involves using repulsors as springs, and wheels as a sort of clutch.

To the IR+KF install! !

Edited February 15, 2017 by 0111narwhalz

[TiktaalikDreaming]

On 2/15/2017 at 4:20 AM, Svm420 said:

@Shadowmage

If your open for suggestions I want to suggest the most suggested item from the adjustable landing gear thread. Side/lateral folding landing gear. For me I would want it to be similar to the mig 21 landing gear.  Other suggested like the p51 or spitfire. 

This may sound like an unnecessary extra but no one has made something like that especially not with the great features of ALG,   now KSPWheel/Kerbal Foundries.

I can post pics, but a simple Google search will show what I mean. Thanks for the best wheels on Ksp! 

Now that I've actually googled it, I think the spitfire/p51 style is probably actually doable as a symmetric part.  It won't look exactly like (particularly the spitfire, with it's forward angling) the originals, but the P51 is actually not far off being an OK KSP part for symmetry.  We're basically talking a side folding landing gear that is flush with a surface when folded.

And, I don't think symmetry issues will stop the MiG-21 landing gear, so much as they're incredibly specific to the fuselage/wing shape.  You'd need to make a whole bunch of different models to cover all the different wing-to-fuselage arrangements, and then hope the player mounts them just right.  I think they're probably the sort of thing that would only get done if someone was working on a Mig21 mod where the wings and body were all custom, and maybe the wings had stack nodes set-up to match where the wheels should go.  But, as a general part, I can't see how it would work.

[DocMop]

@Shadowmage

Could the sideways folding gear be done with the current ALG if you enable the wheel to be rotate-able around the vertical axis additional to the horizontal that is currently implemented?

[DoctorDavinci]

2 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

Yesterday/last night was spent rewriting the ALG module and re-rigging the models for new suspension handling mechanics.  Ughh.... is about the only word for it.  The rigging needed for the deploy/retract setup conflicts with the rigging needed for the suspension mechanics.  Now I fully understand why the models were rigged the way they were originally, and why the plugin code for them was as crazy as it was.  There was reason behind the madness.

I feel for you my friend ... Ughh is right

Thanx again for taking ALG on 

[0111narwhalz]

Discovery: IR doesn't move the part in the same way that KSPWheel expects things to move. The output part of my clutch doesn't turn when the input does, and it doesn't transmit power when the KF wheels are parented to the part rotated by IR's powered joints. However, it works just fine when you use the "uncontrolled" joints.

 Also, the repulsors are weird. They seem to have a sort of falling-edge behavior; they don't want to let go of the part. This might have something to do with the geometry of the part itself, though, as when I replaced the sticky M-beams with well-behaved FL-T200's, they stopped grabbing. You might want to look into behavior with thin parts.

One more thing: Might one change the keybinds? That is, make motors steer and steering mote. The clutch seems to require this for operation, or else you can only steer or accelerate when you're using the coming monstrosity. Again, IR doesn't do it right, so their keybinding system is irrelevant.

Edited February 15, 2017 by 0111narwhalz

[Z3R0_0NL1N3]

Wow, awesome work! I was doubtful anything like tracks would ever resurrect.

If you're open to requests, there's an old WIP tracks mod that I've wanted to see for the longest time. With parts like

Lo-Fi said the old Kerbal Foundries wouldn't support two tracks on one part, as well as the model being iffy in some places. If you'd have a look I'd appreciate it.

[0111narwhalz]

I don't think KSPWheel has a problem with multiple tracks on one part, unless there's some kind of part-wide "This is a track" field that lumps all the colliders together. If so, you'll just find that all the colliders have their RPMs averaged and you can't steer right with it.

[Virtualgenius]

@Shadowmage Thanks for all the hard work your putting into ALG do you think the auto align feature is feasible again it was one of the great features of ALG it allowed the wheels to align perfectly, among all the other great features of ALG I too will throw in for a few coffee's to keep you going

[kcs123]

Old ALG when used along with firespitter plugin allowed to show lines for alignment. Not the same thing as autoalign, but it helps.
Real life things pushed me away from KSP for a while, so I didn't have oportunity to check latest ALG in game. Don't know if that is still possible or not.

Edited February 16, 2017 by kcs123
typo found by 0111narwhalz

[0111narwhalz]

1 minute ago, kcs123 said:

Old AGL when used along with firespitter plugin allowed to show lines for alignment. Not the same thing as autoalign, but it helps.
Real life things pushed me away from KSP for a while, so I didn't have oportunity to check latest AGL in game. Don't know if that is still possible or not.

That was under the BD plugin. Basically nothing but the assets is the same as that.

2 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

AGL

Adjustable Gear of Landing! 

[kcs123]

1 minute ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Adjustable Gear of Landing! 

Things like that happens when you don't have enough coffeine in blood Going to fix that (lack of coffeine)

[Shadowmage]

10 hours ago, Virtualgenius said:

@Shadowmage Thanks for all the hard work your putting into ALG do you think the auto align feature is feasible again it was one of the great features of ALG it allowed the wheels to align perfectly, among all the other great features of ALG I too will throw in for a few coffee's to keep you going

You mean these buttons?  (Align Wheel To Ground)

(Current models/rigging/plugin, available in current release):

(New model rigging, not yet available, will be available with the next KF update)

If that was what you were referring to... then it is already available.  Make sure you are using the latest KF release + the latest KSPWheels as well.  Set up your wheel in the editor and press the 'align wheel to ground' button, and the wheel will align itself as close to vertical as it can.

 

 

10 hours ago, Z3R0_0NL1N3 said:

Wow, awesome work! I was doubtful anything like tracks would ever resurrect.

If you're open to requests, there's an old WIP tracks mod that I've wanted to see for the longest time. With parts like

 

Lo-Fi said the old Kerbal Foundries wouldn't support two tracks on one part, as well as the model being iffy in some places. If you'd have a look I'd appreciate it.

Nothing stopping the plugin from handling multiple tracks in a single part.  It was designed from the ground up to have such functionality (specifically for part-welding and MODEL node use).

Took a quick look at those models though, and out of the download on that page only a single model will import into blender correct (the model from your image), and even that model is nowhere near 'usable' (200k tris, and completely unrigged).  The rest of the models crash on import or only import random transforms.

So, sadly, doesn't look like there is anything I can do with those, unless someone has a download with non-broken models in it.  Going to take a closer look at what the unity project from that download had in it, but it is even harder to get usable models when trying to go Unity->Blender (Unity has zero built in export functions).

 

3 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

That was under the BD plugin. Basically nothing but the assets is the same as that.

Not even the model assets are the same anymore; they have been reworked substantially during re-rigging for the new plugin.  The only thing that is used un-altered from the original ALG are the textures.

 

 

On the development front, the new ALG rigging and is finished.  Moved towards an almost entirely constraints driven rigging.  The plugin now only moves a couple (really only one) transforms itself, and the constraints take care of the rest.  As a bonus the deploy animation now synchs perfectly to the deployed state, including temporary collider setups.  What you see is what you get.

They are also much more stable in use now.  Previously with angled struts anytime the suspension was compressed the wheel base would change, the wheels would see sideways movement and impart friction, and there was a tendency for jittering and fighting between the wheels.  Now the wheels move 'up' (as defined by the wheel orientation), so on a properly configured part, even with angled struts, there is zero change in wheel base when the suspension compresses.  In general they are now much less twitchy and far more forgiving on landing.

Only thing left now is to re-add the steering, brakes, motors, dust-effects, and damage modules.  Steering will only be enabled when wheel-angle = 0, as the models simply aren't created in a way to allow for steering with angled wheels; quite impossible.  But that will still allow for steerable nose or tail gear, just not steerable wing/outboard gear (unless they have their wheel angle = 0).

Edit:  Ohh.. also bashed the ALG models into this (new part):

Side-deploying gear.  Not as low profile as I would like at default scale, but quite usable.  Includes the rest of the ALG features as well.  Should be available with the next KF release.

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Shadowmage

[0111narwhalz]

Breakthrough in the autocentering mechanical contraption:

If I use tracks (or anything else with tank steering), I can steer with the steering controls. It seems almost ready to go, save for the small problem that I can't kill the main throttle on the steering tracks. Motor Lock also kills tank steering.

Edited February 16, 2017 by 0111narwhalz

[V8jester]

@Shadowmage I was working on resurecting my LCAC from 1.0.5 last night. And I realized the repulsers (work much better / are much more powerful) do not have any AG buttons available. In old KF there were options to turn off as well as raise / lower ride hight with an AG. Could this please be added in a future release?

[XOC2008]

21 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

Edit:  Ohh.. also bashed the ALG models into this (new part):

Side-deploying gear.  Not as low profile as I would like at default scale, but quite usable.  Includes the rest of the ALG features as well.  Should be available with the next KF release.

 

Side gear! I have been waiting ages for these!

 

Also, looked back a ways and I either missed it or it wasn't brought up.. There was a dozer blade lo-fi was working on. Will that make it into the mod or will these be parts like that in the future in a separate but related mod? Asking for a friend. (It's for me, who am I kidding?)

[lo-fi]

On 2/13/2017 at 6:39 PM, Shadowmage said:

No real rigging or coding knowledge necessary,

From experience, modeling with the rigging in mind is a HUGE advantage. Get the orientations, hierarchy, pivots and positions right, THEN send it over to unity is the way to retain your sanity...I could rig a set or tracks in minutes with my workflow, and if you don't break the prefab connection, updating is so simple. I even used to export dummy objects with the models!

1 hour ago, XOC2008 said:

There was a dozer blade lo-fi was working on

Sadly, it was a frame-rate munching monstrosity. The best place for it would probably be in the Kerbal Terrain System... Code is all in the old KF dev branch, though

The handler was probably more relevant to KF, I think:

 

[martinezfg11]

Thanks for that ear-bursting explosion at the end of the video LOL.

[lo-fi]

T'ain't Kerbal unless it's 'splodin'

[V8jester]

@lo-fi Whatever became of the handler? That would have been so useful!