Little things

[Rath]

@Kenny Kerman, why are you being so hostile?  Not being able to target a mountain is a restriction of the way the game works.  You can set waypoints with Kerbnet even.

[Kenny Kerman]

You don't understand what I say : I just want to see on the screen the direction pointed by the mouse cursor, or the direction of things I know the distance, displayed by the screen. What are your questions about that? Did you ever navigate...? Or use a flight simulator...?

"I always die a little inside, when I read people saying how easy things are to change in any software" I'm senior programmer. If you can display the distance, you can display the direction. Don't try that.

Got it, i'll do it myself, and stop suggestions. I was on another mod, but well... Another time. Gonna play OOlite for a while.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[DrLicor]

@Kenny Kerman, hey, I see you're a bit confused/angry/upset with the fact that the stock game doesn't give you a 'old school' compass or indicator. 
To sum things up first:
The heading of a craft is displayed under the navball, that is exact the same a on a compass, only you can compare this to a analog clock and a digital clock. A compass analog, the number under the navball is digital. 
For the heading of a target, you can indeed switch to target mode on the navball. You can plant waypoints with the mod stated by @Urses, waypoint manager.

If you want to know your elevation, you can install KER and edit the custom windows. In the subcategory 'Vessel' is the factor pitch given. This gives you the angle between the ground and your vessels elevation.
If you want to know what the angle between you prograde and crafts elevation, this is called your AoA (Angle of Attack). Where do you use it for? For example the space shuttle maintain an AoA of 40 degree when re-entering.
If you want to know factors between your target and your craft, there's a whole category full of it. 

 

Side note. Please don't get offended quickly when someone says the topic is flooded. For what I understand, the topic isn't something for chatting, like there's done on the first page and if someone requests a PM, it isn't an offence, it's a good solution and offer. For you you're acting like you stand above us, while we're trying to help you in our free time. A bit of gratitude should fit in this topic. You can't demand things here, especially not from your fellow kerbonauts. 

Fly safe.

~Dr.Licor

[Kenny Kerman]

This is right offending. You are talking to me as I didn't know that. There is no "old-school" watava, just a natural display on this game : if you can tell the distance, you can tell the direction, and display it on the screen just like the distance. Plus you know the heading/inclination of the mouse. I know I can target & GPS SOME things. thats not the question. If I want to land a plane on the Island I must first drop a probe to have an permanent idea of the direction of the track (and I did...). Silly. Two more numbers on the screen, an I can land a biplane. And those infos are already there (on the navball), don't tell me it's a PitA to display it on the main screen, like the distances... I know I can write it myself but I'm on a KAL9000 (Kerbally programmed ALgorithmic computer) mod.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[monstah]

32 minutes ago, Kenny Kerman said:

If I want to land a plane on the Island I must first drop a probe to have an permanent idea of the direction of the track

No, you don't. Read again his reply, he clearly points to a mod that does exactly this. Stop being hostile, people are trying to help.

 

Let's go over this again:

You said you want the heading of the ship: it's already there on the navball, as it's been pointed out. If you want it somewhere else on the screen, KER has got your back, and it also has for ship pitch.

You also said you want the heading and elevation of the target relative to the ship: again, KER has got your back.

You also said you want to be able to target a part of terrain, and show heading and elevation of that relative to the ship; Waypoint Manager has got you covered, as it's been pointed out.

You also want "the heading and elevation of the mouse cursor". This doesn't exist, I'm sorry, it's just not a thing. The mouse cursor is an object on the screen, not the 3D world. You can have a direction projected from the game camera, but unless you're in IVA, that information has no relation to the ship's position, and zero use for navigating.

 

If you already know of all these and they still don't do what you want, then please, can you explain better what you really want? "Just two numbers" is not an answer, we've given you plenty of numbers already.

[Urses]

Sorry i Feel a littel trolled by now...

KER longitude, angle, heading,... all there...

Waypointmanager free Setting of way points with the mouse und free editible attitude seting, heading towards waypoinr, distance,... all there...

Mouseposition? How will you translate a point from a overlaymask into a 3D-Coordinate System  (world) if the mouse does not intercept this dimensions? I don't See a mouseshadow like in Dungeon Keeper?

How will Computer/Engine know that you a pointing at a imaginary point in 2km Range and not at a moon behind Jool that is aktually at this position?

Only Curiosity....

Edited March 30, 2017 by Urses

[Kenny Kerman]

how do the screen know the point is green? Feel like you want i don't care, CU

[MiffedStarfish]

5 hours ago, Kenny Kerman said:

Never been scout, or made walks in the mountain?

No! We're nerds, us KSP players, are mountains the tall brown things with the weird green ovals attached? (Sorry if I offended every KSP player)

Also, if you want to find heading and elevation, just find the spot between the numbers on the navball.

Quote

If I want to land a plane on the Island I must first drop a probe to have an permanent idea of the direction of the track.

I don't see why's you can't just eyeball it, the plane (and come to think of it everything in atmo) side of the game doesn't require nearly as much precision as the orbital mechanics in this game. You want to fly to a mountain, point your plane at it and physics warp. Or alternatively, just build a VTOL.

Edited March 30, 2017 by MiffedStarfish

[Red Iron Crown]

Can't say I've ever felt the need or desire for such a feature, but I guess people play differently.

@Kenny Kerman You might be an experienced programmer, but the way you are interacting with other people in this discussion thread shows a lack of people skills. Please be more civil with the other users of the forum even if you disagree with them. If you wish to discuss the matter further, please PM me or another moderator rather than posting in thread about it.

[ZooNamedGames]

Personally I could fly an aircraft with just 3 ingame instruments without needing any visual aid. Specifically; altimeter (ASL acceptable), speedometer and the navball. Granted in a pinch I could figure out speed without the speedometer.

Using a target on the navball can even allow me to identify it's relative distance to me. It's a challenge when your at a set range, but with proper navigation you can figure it out. Thanks to the target indicator I can identify based on it's location below the horizon how far away it is. Simply because when the target is below the horizon, so is the target indicator. You could use trigonometry and figure out the exact distance at any given moment, however you'd require the current distance to target to get a complete equation... but I'm rattling on now.

Point being, using the nav-ball on a planet, you can find a lot more information from it than what's initially written on the tin.

@Kenny Kerman, this discussion seems to have gotten heated so I'll just add my one bit of commentary here and then leave; a nav-ball is a compass, but one designed for 3 dimensional space rather then a compasses 2D plane. If you were to keep the navball's orientation locked to upwards (blue side), dead center, it would act like a compass. You can test this by EVA-ing a Kerbal and facing the camera downwards and you'll see that the nav-ball is now looking down. Now wherever the Kerbal moves is his compass heading.

In the same manner that you in real life have a compass heading based on where your looking, you also have a 3D orientation. This is important for vehicles which operate in 3D, such as aircraft and the obvious, spacecraft. Your orientation simply is often perpendicular to the surface (when standing) looking to a specific heading (seen as your compass direction). Granted, if your on a slope you might have your nav-ball location slightly inclined in the same way an aircraft is during a vertical climb or descent.

If it's not clear which direction is which, just remember this; 0 degrees is North (shown by a handy red line), 90 is East, 180 is South, 270 is west. With 45 being Northeast, 135 being Southeast, 225 being Southwest and 315 being Northwest.

Hope this helps. If you would like me to elaborate, let me know. Best of luck.

"Zoo you've turned off your UI system, what's wrong?"

"Nothing. I'm alright, I've got a Nav-ball"

(Star Wars reference for fun  )

[egoego]

After reading what you want to actually do with your compass (targeting a mountain for example) I have to agree with you that you need more than just the NavBall.

Aside the mods others have mentioned that can probably fullfill all your needs, I can see why you would want your compass in the game. (Maybe you don't like to use mods.)

But your idea of using your mouse to get a bearing on a target is not as easily accomplished as you might think. It is possible to get a bearing on your mousecursor, but it would be the bearing of the line from the camera through your mousecursor (we call this line A). Unless your mouse cursor is hovering over the center of your your ship, the bearing of the line from the ship to your target (line B) will be different. To be able to calculate the target bearing for your ship, you need to know which point of line A is your target. The first intersection of line A with terrain is a possible candidate. But others could be possible too, especially when you don't point on any terrain (sky, space, ...). It would be easier to use a compass showing you the bearing of the line from the camera through the ship (line C) or better through the center of the screen (as your ship will be centered there most of the time anyway). As long as your view is centered on your ship, line C will be parallel to line B and you can use your camera bearing as your ships target bearing.

Using your mouse to target something will give you more freedom and convienience in choosing targets, but actually implementing a way to get a bearing without waypoints might be easier through a camera following compass.

EDIT: I made an image explaining this: 

It is possible to calculate line B from line A with some rules on how to choose your target, but if you are not carefull you could endup on Mt. Hell instead of Mt. Heaven.

Edited March 31, 2017 by egoego

[Urses]

10 minutes ago, egoego said:

After reading what you want to actually do with your compass (targeting a mountain for example) I have to agree with you that you need more than just the NavBall.

Aside the mods others have mentioned that can probably fullfill all your needs, I can see why you would want your compass in the game. (Maybe you don't like to use mods.)

But your idea of using your mouse to get a bearing on a target is not as easily accomplished as you might think. It is possible to get a bearing on your mousecursor, but it would be the bearing of the line from the camera through your mousecursor (we call this line A). Unless your mouse cursor is hovering over the center of your your ship, the bearing of the line from the ship to your target (line B) will be different. To be able to calculate the target bearing for your ship, you need to know which point of line A is your target. The first intersection of line A with terrain is a possible candidate. But others could be possible too, especially when you don't point on any terrain (sky, space, ...). It would be easier to use a compass showing you the bearing of the line from the camera through the ship (line C) or better through the center of the screen (as your ship will be centered there most of the time anyway). As long as your view is centered on your ship, line C will be parallel to line B and you can use your camera bearing as your ships target bearing.

Using your mouse to target something will give you more freedom and convienience in choosing targets, but actually implementing a way to get a bearing without waypoints might be easier through a camera following compass.

Thank you, this is the answer for my previous question!

18 hours ago, Urses said:

Mouseposition? How will you translate a point from a overlaymask into a 3D-Coordinate System  (world) if the mouse does not intercept this dimensions? I don't See a mouseshadow like in Dungeon Keeper?

How will Computer/Engine know that you a pointing at a imaginary point in 2km Range and not at a moon behind Jool that is aktually at this position?

Only Curiosity....

Realy appreciate!

[Kenny Kerman]

Forget it. I'm gonna do it myself, on the basis of nanogauges, which can magically tell the orientation of the cam, with a nice compass showing the diretion of anything you see. And the incliantion, too. Thanks for your effortless comprehension.

There is no need to know the distance to know the direction. Stop telling silly things and supposing and don't understand the navball or anything else concerning 3D positonning. We can talk french if you want me to have a beter subtility in expression.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Kenny Kerman]

22 hours ago, Urses said:

Thank you, this is the answer for my previous question!

Realy appreciate!

You just have to calculate the bearing from the plane, not from the cam... When you show a distance on the cam, is it from the cam? This bearing will be used from the plane .

It's not for choosing target. It's to know where things are : you drop a parachuted probe while doing some barrel roll, after that you know it's distance, but not it's bearing... (I don't event talk about debris having a navball, do they have some magnetic compass inside?)

Plus : anyway you can easily compute the total visual angle of any cam and evaluate the size of a degree on the screen. Look at the microgauge "cam bearing", make it the size of the screen......... Just easier, as you don't have to display it, but only to compute & display 2 numbers around the mouse cursor. You have the direction of the mouse cursor on the screen, don't you? And the cam one, and the screen size on the cam. And for the bearing of everything showing its distance on the screen, the data is already there somewhere when you compute that distance. As the screen is a small fraction of the surrounding sphere, you can make linear maths : the precision may be bad far from the center of the screen, but who cares about precision far of the center of the screen?

http://www.plastimo.com/en/compasses-electronics-navigation/handbearing-compasses/compas-iris-1019.htmlI don't know the english for that, but search the difference betwen "compas de route" (the navball, which btw exists IRL on ships) and "compas de relèvement", you aim with it to know bearing of things, just like if you look trough the center of a navball, and read the numbers on its surface. (sorry for the ragequit, kids trying to explain me basic spheric trigonometry or believing you need a magnetosphere on Kerbin to have a compass was not that fun )

Ok let's call that "view from inside the navball : your mouse shows the value displayed on the outside of the navball". Cue: the navball is a "sky map": you could show stars on it. Its center is the plane. So anything on it can be shown in the "sky" of the plane. Numbers, for example. It's on any HUD.

I use a lot of mods for some %... Nanogauges is a good example: it has what I want, but I need only 5 gauges from there, and it's too small and has some other problems... Same for Steamgauges (I use 2 or 3)... take a lot of mem (increased by the absurd "double" instead of "float" use...), screen space (which is ressource) and "update" calls. Plus it increases exponentially the probabilities to have a fatal bug...

Gonna make a "special airplane cam", i think. With only what is needed for a minimal realist plane flight. I modded the "booster cam" but that sometimes crashes textures or other things (C# ...?). I should show you what I need to fly a plane and land it manually... Ever tried ? I can do a YT clip to explain you my problems in globbish english. I use the sea texture to align the Island 09... (Oh! Bearing displayed outside ! Do the sea have a magnetic compass?)

"Ergonomy" is a word you should study. Search "Elite (game)" on Wikipedia. Was on 48k.

I'm massively modding my game for realism : when you have batteries and a Space Center, you have surface-mounted lights, and so on... IPN don't need hi-tech. Flying planes don't need satellites, and anyway in the beginning you can't GPS targets. Did you ever made a carreer in "not-easy" mode ?

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Urses]

2 hours ago, Kenny Kerman said:

 /snip giant wall XD/

*Did you ever made a carreer in "not-easy" mode ?

* yes, aktual i'm am on all at 20%(science, funds, rep) no reverts, no restarts, no respawn. (But quicksave because of kraken).

Now we are in a diskussion.

If i understand you right you will have the angle which you have to follow to get to your desired target. It is the typical ability of a military compass. You target a object and can read the angle of the Position from the object to your position. (Sorry for my Bad english But i try). 

My C-fu is realy Dusty and i don't will go the way to decide how easy or hard it will be to program (as i learnd programming MC's (magnet cassets) was in the talk as the next Big shot for computers, i build my first PC by myself on a wooden plate XD ). But IMPO this option will be seen as to specific for a "space" game. Your best shot will be maybe to write a mod.

As a Trail. 

Like i mentioned to begin with, the Waypoint Manager has the ability to Show you the angle on the Navball to follow for a (self)defined Waypoint. It would be interesting to see in Code witch way @nightingale used to get this information and ask him politely if he has an idea/workaround to get your funktionality? And if you post this work as mod in forums and People complaint "Why this Beauty isn't Stock" maybe than SQUAD decide to integrate this ability in game.

Godspeed and much of luck.

PS: it is never light as a old bear to be around with the "millenials" 

Funny Kabooms

Urses

[Kenny Kerman]

"Recently I started flying spaceplanes in Kerbal and discovered I could never land them successfully. My [keyboard] flying skills are sub-par. This despite being an instrumented rated pilot of real planes."

( https://spacedock.info/mod/1019/Kramax Autopilot Continued)

I'm adressing this issue. I really think now that it will be more efficient for me (and, presumably, anybody else...) to write a low-tech plane control panel mod.

There is no way to make navigation on Kerbin without a lot of hi-tech. An "aiming navball" would help. (Specially with RemoteTech ?)

And I was talking of MY globbish

Btw, what about my other questions?

(if you wanna know what I'm listening while flying (or programmin..., can be : )

 )

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Toastie_Buns]

I realise this isn't what you want, but you did give me an idea.

Scansat gives you nice maps of the planet, if you replace the ship icon with an orienteering compass and have waypoints draw a line from itself to the craft, you'd have a basic orienteering map.

[Kenny Kerman]

1 hour ago, Toastie_Buns said:

I realise this isn't what you want, but you did give me an idea.

Scansat gives you nice maps of the planet, if you replace the ship icon with an orienteering compass and have waypoints draw a line from itself to the craft, you'd have a basic orienteering map.

Sure I use ScanSat and the other things, I was just suggesting to have lo-tech navigation abilities. Kind of GPS like they had back in past centuries. Lines on maps...

I'm trained to have these habilities, so I can evaluate angles, but I know it would be easy to display it.

I restart a really low tech career with the "Bargain parts" mod. First (unkerballed) vessel ready to launch. For Science.

Chute is "SM2 Plastic [bag]" model, pod is "BBQ1 Core", engine is ENG-25 liquid engine... I said : "realism !"

 

Technically, now THAT's a BBQ... Happy me there is a magnetosphere on Kerbin, and radars on barbecues (oops, forgot barrel fuel tank and tires decoupler):

(Wait for the same cam view, some weeks from here, made for a low-tech ( = before 1980 ? ) plane... The Space Shuttle had 640k mem, don't even talk about Gemini mission... Or soviet manned vessels...)

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman
Forgot fuel tanks.

[nascarlaser1]

I think I found a stock way to do something similar to what you want @Kenny Kerman. If you can launch a probe capable of kerbnet, you can then set up waypoints on different locations. Then you target these waypoints.

 

Disclamer: I am unaware of what you know and don't know. this is not meant to be mean or offensive, just helpful.

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by nascarlaser1

[Toastie_Buns]

5 hours ago, Kenny Kerman said:

I like how the 'compass' is just a fancier HDG readout

I thought you wanted a traditional analogue compass. Btw, check out Rasterprop if you haven't already, that'll be easy to insert an analogue compass onto the screens and save you doing IVA work in blender, unless you're talking about something else.

[Kenny Kerman]

4 hours ago, Toastie_Buns said:

I like how the 'compass' is just a fancier HDG readout

I thought you wanted a traditional analogue compass. Btw, check out Rasterprop if you haven't already, that'll be easy to insert an analogue compass onto the screens and save you doing IVA work in blender, unless you're talking about something else.

This compas is there because it gives heading and distance to the target, not because of analogic display: that's what I mean about screen space being a ressource. Same for the big radar altimeter : the small one is too small but cool for small distances... And so on... I can make something half this size with more infos... With a plane I have also a MechJeb window with a third radar altimeter display . Not really ergonomic.......... I'm not talking about IVA but about *navigation*. Which is NOT "I set a waypoint on the GPS an follow the target".

6 hours ago, nascarlaser1 said:

I think I found a stock way to do something similar to what you want @Kenny Kerman. If you can launch a probe capable of kerbnet, you can then set up waypoints on different locations. Then you target these waypoints.

 

Disclamer: I am unaware of what you know and don't know. this is not meant to be mean or offensive, just helpful.

 

You don't understand what I want. I should make a YT clip to explain.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Urses]

10 hours ago, Kenny Kerman said:

 

Nice

Like he said:

4 hours ago, Toastie_Buns said:

Btw, check out Rasterprop if you haven't already, that'll be easy to insert an analogue compass onto the screens and save you doing IVA work in blender, unless you're talking about something else.

Make this Instruments as RastaProp supported mod. I Think the most Aero-Fans will have it!

And it looks like we have a Newcomer Modder here

Funny Kabooms 

Urses 

[Kenny Kerman]

33 minutes ago, Urses said:

Nice

Like he said:

Make this Instruments as RastaProp supported mod. I Think the most Aero-Fans will have it!

And it looks like we have a Newcomer Modder here

Funny Kabooms 

Urses 

I'll take a look at RastaProp... Now i'm investigating which mod/process/other crashes my GPU

It will be quiet easy to adapt NanoGauges for what I want¹, and the hullcam for what I want². I would prefer to do what I want³. But 1 goes with 3.

¹ ((Usable & ergonomic) (lo-tech navigation)) panel

² bearings on the screen

³ KAL9000: Kerbonal deep-learning.

(+ had to revive all the rooster once more I like to take them 4 to go on science tours.)

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Toastie_Buns]

1 hour ago, Kenny Kerman said:

This compas is there because it gives heading and distance to the target, not because of analogic display: that's what I mean about screen space being a ressource. Same for the big radar altimeter : the small one is too small but cool for small distances... And so on... I can make something half this size with more infos... With a plane I have also a MechJeb window with a third radar altimeter display . Not really ergonomic.......... I'm not talking about IVA but about *navigation*. Which is NOT "I set a waypoint on the GPS an follow the target".

I think I understand. The reason I suggested this was simply because Rasterprop already supports Scansat maps, so you could easily create my idea if you so desired and have orienteering navigation, whilst you'd have another 3-4 displays for literally anything you wanted. I now understand you don't want that, which is totally fine, but I still feel you'd get a kick out of the multiple displays, because they come with IVA arrow keys to cycle through screens, so you could create several 'windows' to cycle through on the 3-4 monitors. This way, you can incorporate your compass on a large scale, as big as the IVA screen itself if you so desired, whilst having the other screens free for a myriad of things, such as a flight management system, or perhaps a LSAT system for safe low flying from point to point.

Hope you understand where I'm coming from, I explain things badly sometimes.

 

EDIT: I guess in both points you'd need to plot a route to your waypoint, as you would in reality with a flight plan, since the FMS and LSAT would still need to know 'where to go' to manage this information though.

*shrug*

Edited April 1, 2017 by Toastie_Buns
I r am dumbs

[Kenny Kerman]

12 minutes ago, Toastie_Buns said:

you could create several 'windows' to cycle through on the 3-4 monitors.

The idea is to have ONE rectangle around the NavBall (total width like twice a 110% navball), with all is needed to navigate a plane wihtout hi-tech : just like IRL... Ok, before the GPS... It's ... like done... Gonna make a simple fixed reticle with graduation, for the 2). Need time*motivation to code.

Taking the crew to South Pole. Using ForScience mod gives a role to low-tech planes.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kenny Kerman