RCgothic Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 (edited) Dang it, I was just pulling up the tab, too. But yes, frarpin’ LUNAR DRAGON! 5 tonnes of cargo there, but could also return cargo. Wonder what we could do with 5 tonnes of moon rock samples... Er, edit, return cargo does not seem to be the case, I squeeeed before I actually read the article. Tho seems odd that SpaceX would design anything to be disposable from the beginning at this point. Wonder if they might have longer term plans for used modules? Edited March 27, 2020 by CatastrophicFailure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealKerbal3x Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Presumably a lunar variant of Dragon would need Falcon Heavy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said: Presumably a lunar variant of Dragon would need Falcon Heavy? Indeed. And speaking of which... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavio hc16 Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 1 hour ago, RCgothic said: ....as a surprise to "noone". 5 tons to the m oon with a lunar dragon? hell yeah 57 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said: Indeed. And speaking of which... this is exciting!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 I'm operating under the assumption that the render is accurate, and I'm going to assume they just shove the thing under a fairing. FH with a fairing is a known entity. Easier to throw a vehicle under the fairing and be done with it. Reuse whatever makes sense to reuse (pressure vessel, panels, etc) but otherwise don't worry about shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotius Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 1 hour ago, CatastrophicFailure said: Indeed. And speaking of which... I'm psyched for Psyche mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, tater said: I'm operating under the assumption that the render is accurate, and I'm going to assume they just shove the thing under a fairing. FH with a fairing is a known entity. Easier to throw a vehicle under the fairing and be done with it. Reuse whatever makes sense to reuse (pressure vessel, panels, etc) but otherwise don't worry about shape. It may have a disposable nose cone (Dragon 1 style) and no fairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wjolcz Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 So I'm guessing that Dragon XL is either just a boring non-reusable cylinder with a docking port (on the back?) or the render is bland because the final design is still WIP. I guess that's one way to secure the future of the company if Starship doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Wjolcz said: So I'm guessing that Dragon XL is either just a boring non-reusable cylinder with a docking port (on the back?) or the render is bland because the final design is still WIP. It’s likely the former because the render came from SpaceX. A boring, dirt-cheap non-reusable cylinder. 2 minutes ago, Wjolcz said: I guess that's one way to secure the future of the company if Starship doesn't work. If Starship doesn’t work, SpaceX will keep improving it until it works or they run out of money. It’s required for Mars, and Mars is the reason why SpaceX was created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wjolcz Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, sh1pman said: It’s likely the former because the render came from SpaceX. A boring, dirt-cheap non-reusable cylinder. So did all the Starship renders and the Red Dragon one (which looked like Dragon 1 but with engines and legs). Oh, and the upper stage landing. Also, that design is kind of odd if we assume that other thing in the picture is the upper stage of F9. Seems like an odd way to do a TLI. I bet it's still WIP. Plans change, especially in SpaceX, it seems. 12 minutes ago, sh1pman said: If Starship doesn’t work, SpaceX will keep improving it until it works or they run out of money. It’s required for Mars, and Mars is the reason why SpaceX was created. Really hope it does work soon. Edited March 27, 2020 by Wjolcz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Wjolcz said: Seems like an odd way to do a TLI I think it’s pictured right after the TLI burn, decoupling from the upper stage. The docking port seems to be facing back towards the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 19 minutes ago, sh1pman said: likely the former because the render came from SpaceX. A boring, dirt-cheap non-reusable cylinder. Wait, so like... a boring cylinder, or a Boring cylinder..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Just now, CatastrophicFailure said: Wait, so like... a boring cylinder, or a Boring cylinder..? 21 minutes ago, sh1pman said: boring, dirt-cheap non-reusable cylinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wjolcz Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, sh1pman said: I think it’s pictured right after the TLI burn, decoupling from the upper stage. The docking port seems to be facing back towards the stage. That's what I find odd about it. Wouldn't a spacecraft require something more efficient than RCS to go to the Moon even after a TLI burn? The engine(s) are obviously not shown, probably because it's still WIP. And if it isn't then I really can't imagine RCS alone bringing that thing back to Earth for reuse. But then I don't know much about orbital physics. Maybe that highly elliptical polar orbit, which Gateway will occupy, actually allows for low-ish energy insertions and departures. And I don't think that thing will be reusable anyway. Edit: the fact that the picture only shows the docking port and solar panels makes me all the more certain that these are the only two components guaranteed to be on the spacecraft. The composition of the picture says a lot about what kind of decisions were made when they decided to show it. And it doesn't make sense because they didn't want to show the thing but they wanted to include its destination (the Moon) which is why it's all "mysterious", backwards and featureless. Edit 2: I know I'm overthinking it and probably overreacting too. Edited March 28, 2020 by Wjolcz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Steve Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, Wjolcz said: That's what I find odd about it. Wouldn't a spacecraft require something more efficient than RCS to go to the Moon even after a TLI burn? The engine(s) are obviously not shown, probably because it's still WIP. And if it isn't then I really can't imagine RCS alone bringing that thing back to Earth for reuse. But then I don't know much about orbital physics. Maybe that highly elliptical polar orbit, which Gateway will occupy, actually allows for low-ish energy insertions and departures. And I don't think that thing will be reusable anyway. Edit: the fact that the picture only shows the docking port and solar panels makes me all the more certain that these are the only two components guaranteed to be on the spacecraft. The composition of the picture says a lot about what kind of decisions were made when they decided to show it. And it doesn't make sense because they didn't want to show the thing but they wanted to include its destination (the Moon) which is why it's all "mysterious", backwards and featureless. Edit 2: I know I'm overthinking it and probably overreacting too. Falcon Heavy TLI payload is something like 20 tons. Getting to gateway from there is ~500m/s if I recall correctly. RCS thrusters can be fairly efficient enough for this if done right. Draco thrusters (not SuperDraco) have like 300s isp in vacuum. It is my understanding that this will not return to Earth, for re-use or in general, so it doesn't need to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ultimate Steve said: Falcon Heavy TLI payload is something like 20 tons. Getting to gateway from there is ~500m/s if I recall correctly. RCS thrusters can be fairly efficient enough for this if done right. Draco thrusters (not SuperDraco) have like 300s isp in vacuum. It is my understanding that this will not return to Earth, for re-use or in general, so it doesn't need to do that. Ninja’d again. But yes, IIRC the whole point of the near-rectilinear halo mouthful orbit is that it takes very little DV to get into/out of. The gateway’s propulsion module will do the whole thing with only a low-thrust, high-ISP ion drive. It’s not like Apollo, et al, where they need a big burn to brake into LLO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ultimate Steve said: It is my understanding that this will not return to Earth, for re-use or in general, so it doesn't need to do that. Where else will it go from the Gateway? Crash into the Moon? IMO it has to return to Earth (and burn up). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, sh1pman said: Crash into the Moon? Hopefully they'll designate a single disposal crater for everything, so the scrap metal will be all in one place when the salvage crews of future generations go prospecting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 30 minutes ago, sh1pman said: Where else will it go from the Gateway? Crash into the Moon? IMO it has to return to Earth (and burn up). Deep space disposal is probably an option, too. Again, that NRHO makes that relatively easy. But 20 tonne lunar lawn darts would be so much cooler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Steve Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 30 minutes ago, sh1pman said: Where else will it go from the Gateway? Crash into the Moon? IMO it has to return to Earth (and burn up). Why would it be a requirement to return to Earth and burn up? The moon is a perfectly suitable disposal area as far as I know. Physical contamination with debris may be a minor concern, but we have already crashed tons of stuff into the moon including lunar module ascent stages, Saturn V third stages, that one probe that measured ice or something, etc. And thats just the stuff we've crashed on purpose. Biological contamination isn't a concern as the moon is almost certainly dead, and if it is a concern, the damage has already been done with those bags of astronaut feces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said: But 20 tonne lunar lawn darts would be so much cooler. A 20t craft smashing into the Moon from high orbit will have ~5.7 GJ of kinetic energy. 135t of TNT equivalent if that energy is released as heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkidirk Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, sh1pman said: A 20t craft smashing into the Moon from high orbit will have ~5.7 GJ of kinetic energy. 135t of TNT equivalent if that energy is released as heat. That won't be a problem until the human residents and tourists are there to start filing complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xd the great Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Dirkidirk said: That won't be a problem until the human residents and tourists are there to start filing complaints. Spoiler Just crash into their habitats. No one will be complaining then. I mean, it works with my kerbals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_name Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 5 hours ago, sh1pman said: Where else will it go from the Gateway? Crash into the Moon? IMO it has to return to Earth (and burn up). I mean regular lunar impactors would probably be a scientific boon if we can get a seismometer network up on the moon again, and maybe something to monitor the dust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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