totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[tater]

1 minute ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Last time I checked, he isn't an engineer.

His training was physics, but he's engineered stuff (software and physical) that has actually been sold commercially, so I'd say he qualifies.

It's funny that the SpaceX thread always goes sideways when they don't launch a rocket to space for a few days, and there isn't a giant rocket sitting on the test stand.

 

 

[southernplain]

13 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Last time I checked, he isn't an engineer.

He is the Chief Engineer of SpaceX. He doesn’t do all of the engineering, but he is certainly more invested in engineering than the business itself. 
He has said as much many many times.

[RCgothic]

23 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Last time I checked, he isn't an engineer.

Literally chief engineer of SpaceX.

Edited June 8, 2021 by RCgothic

[tater]

10 minutes ago, RCgothic said:

Literally chief engineer of SpaceX.

Depends on definitions, some people presumably care about credentials (a degree in engineering), others care about actual engineering. I know a bunch of engineers who did not train in engineering. A friend went from astrophysics to engineering carbon nanotubes. Another from lightning physics to detector design (EE, basically). The sideways move from physics or chemistry to applied physics or applied chemistry (engineering) is very, very common.

[mikegarrison]

1 hour ago, tater said:

Depends on definitions, some people presumably care about credentials (a degree in engineering), others care about actual engineering. I know a bunch of engineers who did not train in engineering. A friend went from astrophysics to engineering carbon nanotubes. Another from lightning physics to detector design (EE, basically). The sideways move from physics or chemistry to applied physics or applied chemistry (engineering) is very, very common.

In some disciplines of "engineering", it's quite common to have a math or physics background rather than an engineering degree. In other disciplines of engineering, this is nearly unheard of. While engineers do use math and physics and chemistry, etc., the discipline of engineering is not exactly the same as the discipline of doing science. There is a reason they have engineering degrees that are separate from math and science degrees.

That being said, schooling is only the start, and people can learn to become experts in things they don't actually have any kind of degree in.

If you own the company (or at least have controlling interest), you can call yourself the Chief Engineer if you want to.

There are also legal requirements to be a licensed engineer, but in some disciplines very few actual engineers have a license. In others, that's essential. For instance, I don't have an engineering license, despite having an engineering degree and working as an engineer for about 35 years.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

3 hours ago, tater said:

to have humans be multiplanetary because it's the cool future he wants to inhabit.

I don't actually think it's more complex than that.

Truth.

1 hour ago, mikegarrison said:

I don't have an engineering license, despite having an engineering degree and working as an engineer for about 35 years.

So you could start your own aircraft company and call yourself Grand High Chief Engineer, but because you don't have a PE after your name, what?  What's the limitation, if any?

[Ricktoberfest]

I’m not a Musk fan boi, but I do find it really weird how some people just can’t understand that being rich doesn’t make you evil.  They seem to spend their time trying to tear down anything he accomplishes, no matter what it is. 

Is he a little crazy? - sure

does he accomplish amazing things that cost you nothing (or next to nothing if you consider the small amount of funding nasa has given him)  and create progress for the entire world? - also sure. 

making up conspiracy theories to tear him down is just ridiculous. There are plenty of reasons to like or not like him, making stuff up is what 3rd graders do.   Now if you have any evidence of any of that, then fine- let’s looks at it. But just deciding because someone is rich they must also be evil is wrong. 

[mikegarrison]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Truth.

So you could start your own aircraft company and call yourself Grand High Chief Engineer, but because you don't have a PE after your name, what?  What's the limitation, if any?

Airplanes and airplane designs are certified by NAAs (National Airworthiness Authorities), and that's why it's not especially important that the engineers are publicly licensed. Some other industries don't have to certify their designs, and so it's more important that the engineers themselves are publicly certified.

[SpaceFace545]

1 hour ago, Ricktoberfest said:

Now if you have any evidence of any of that, then fine- let’s looks at it. But just deciding because someone is rich they must also be evil is wrong. 

He completely avoided federal income taxes in 2018, I doubt he’s paid much since

Completely made up his rags to riches story, in fact his father owned a emerald mine

Freaked out and called a man a pedophile for not using his mini submarine

Tesla is one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US

won't let his workers unionize cause he’s too cheap to pay them living wages or give them benefits

Was very dominant and abusive to his first wife

Just to name a few from the top of my head. I am not saying this because he is rich, it’s because Elon Musk is truly an awful person.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by SpaceFace545

[sevenperforce]

4 hours ago, tater said:

His training was physics, but he's engineered stuff (software and physical) that has actually been sold commercially, so I'd say he qualifies.

It's funny that the SpaceX thread always goes sideways when they don't launch a rocket to space for a few days, and there isn't a giant rocket sitting on the test stand.

My training was also physics but I worked as a telecommunications test engineer for a while, so I was (at that point) an engineer. I would not call myself an engineer now because that is not my job.

IMO if you have education that qualifies you to do engineering, and you work in an engineering field, you are an engineer; if you do not have education that qualifies you to do engineering and you work in an engineering field, you are a technician.

If you pass the PE exam, you are a licensed professional engineer regardless of what kind of work you do.

Chemistry and physics are tricky. I wouldn't call someone a chemist or a physicist just because of a BS or MS degree unless they are actually doing chemistry or physics for their jobs. That being said, if you have a PhD in either, then you could legitimately be called a "PhD physicist" or "PhD chemist" and people understand that it sticks with you even if that's not your job at any given point in time.

2 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

While engineers do use math and physics and chemistry, etc., the discipline of engineering is not exactly the same as the discipline of doing science.

This is very accurate.

Rocket science is different from rocket engineering.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

So you could start your own aircraft company and call yourself Grand High Chief Engineer, but because you don't have a PE after your name, what?  What's the limitation, if any?

All titles are made up to begin with. "Licensed Engineer" just has meaning because the government decided it does, and the government has power because we decided to believe it does.

[Ricktoberfest]

11 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

He completely avoided federal income taxes in 2018, I doubt he’s paid much since

Completely made up his rags to riches story, in fact his father owned a emerald mine

Freaked out and called a man a pedophile for not using his mini submarine

Tesla is one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US

won't let his workers unionize cause he’s too cheap to pay them living wages or give them benefits

Was very dominant and abusive to his first wife

Just to name a few from the top of my head.

 

Several of those assertions are false, but even so, They make him human-not evil.  There is a huge step between being a jerk or an ass and being hitler type evil. 
like I said, I’m not glossing over the fact that he can be weird and also do stupid things, but there’s no need to lie and make up stories if you don’t like him. 

[tater]

21 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

He completely avoided federal income taxes in 2018, I doubt he’s paid much since

LOL

You realize the propublica story looked at "increase in wealth" for a statistical group of people, looked at the taxes that statistical group paid, then worked backwards to make up an effective tax rate. It was not based on actual income, vs capital gains, etc. In short a nonsense story unless you have a copy of his tax returns you'd like to share.

 

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Completely made up his rags to riches story, in fact his father owned a emerald mine

Also a nonsense story. What conspiracy sites do you routinely read?

 

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Freaked out and called a man a pedophile for not using his mini submarine

There was a defamation lawsuit in the UK about that—Musk won. <shrug>

 

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Tesla is one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US

Source? I expect to see workplace injury stats for tesla, plus comparisons so we know it's )\"one of the most dangerous."

 

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won't let his workers unionize cause he’s too cheap to pay them living wages or give them benefits

Not sure that's even possible, though many car manufacturers are not unionized in the US (hint: all the ones that make good cars, lol)

 

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Was very dominant and abusive to his first wife

Just to name a few from the top of my head.

Your head is apparently filled with claims sans sources. I have no idea about his first wife, I don't pay attention to people's personal lives if I can avoid it. Unless there were some sort of criminal charges filed, the most you can have is he said or she said. I know a number of people who have been divorced, and who to believe about what is... nontrivial.

Edited June 8, 2021 by tater

[southernplain]

25 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Completely made up his rags to riches story, in fact his father owned a emerald mine

Literally a conspiracy theory that has been debunked many times.

26 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Tesla is one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US

Citation needed. All of the reporting I have seen suggests this isn't the case and maybe never was. 

30 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

won't let his workers unionize cause he’s too cheap to pay them living wages or give them benefits

Tesla workers are free to unionize. The UAW is not a good union and Tesla workers would be stupid to let them in right now.

Entry level line positions at Austin are starting at $15-17/hour IIRC. What do you consider living wages?

34 minutes ago, SpaceFace545 said:

Was very dominant and abusive to his first wife

Citation needed. Abusive is not a term to be wielded lightly. 

From what I understand, the relationship was not working and the divorce was messy. But allegations of domestic abuse I have never heard.

[tater]

17 minutes ago, southernplain said:

Citation needed. All of the reporting I have seen suggests this isn't the case and maybe never was. 

They seem to be close to the national average for auto manufacturing according to OSHA stats on national averages for workplace illness and injury—that's even increasing their rate based on possibly biased reporting from buisnessinsider from a few years ago (their stories seem to be universally anti-tesla, maybe they had the stock shorted? If you see a negative tesla story, there's a huge chance that's the source, too, so I take anything from them with a grain or 10 of salt unless there are better sources reporting the same).

Regardless, the auto industry is not even close to the most dangerous industry by a factor of 2, so it's hard to see how he could claim they have ever been among the most dangerous. That's the problem with not having real sources, of course. It's possible a few years ago they were more dangerous to work at than many other auto manufacturers. Heck, all of those could be clustered very close together in terms of risk per 100,000 employees, and yet ONE must be the worst, even if it's by 0.2:100,000 or something. Unconcerning.

Edited June 8, 2021 by tater

[southernplain]

8 minutes ago, tater said:

They seem to be close to the national average for auto manufacturing according to OSHA stats on national averages for workplace illness and injury—that's even increasing their rate based possibly biased reporting from buisnessinsider from a few years ago (their stories seem to be universally anti-tesla, maybe they had the stock shorted? If you see a negative tesla story, there's a huge chance that's the source, too, so I take anything from them with a grain or 10 of salt unless there are better sources reporting the same).

Regardless, the auto industry is not even close to the most dangerous industry by a factor of 2, so it's hard to see how he could claim they have ever been among the most dangerous. That's the problem with not having real sources, of course. It's possible a few years ago they were more dangerous to work at than many other auto manufacturers. Heck, all of those could be clustered very close together in terms of risk per 100,000 employees, and yet ONE must be the worst, even if it's by 0.2:100,000 or something. Unconcerning.

I think you are right here. This isn't really a knock on Tesla.

FWIW Tesla said in a press release in early 2020:

Quote

Our injury rate continues to be below the industry average. The Total Recordable Injury Rate (TRIR) at our Fremont factory improved compared to 2018 and is 5% better than the industry average for large manufacturers according the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Of course there is bias inherent in a Tesla corporate press release. They can be fudging the numbers one way or another, but they can't straight up fabricate them.

I doubt Fremont is significantly better or worse than other automotive plants, which aren't particularly dangerous to begin with compared to some heavy manufacturing, resource extraction industries, or even garden variety construction workers.

Edit: Metal and construction workers at Starbase are probably more likely to get injured than line workers at Fremont.

Edited June 8, 2021 by southernplain

[tater]

Just now, southernplain said:

I doubt Fremont is significantly better or worse than other automotive plants, which aren't particularly dangerous to begin with compared to some heavy manufacturing, resource extraction industries, or even garden variety construction workers.

Nursing has almost 2X the illness/injury rate as auto manufacturing.

 

In real SpaceX news, apparently the pad is closed, maybe they do whatever test they are gonna do on that booster simulator thing.

[Beccab]

Just now, tater said:

In real SpaceX news, apparently the pad is closed, maybe they do whatever test they are gonna do on that booster simulator thing.

Yup that's likely, with BN 2.1

[NFUN]

11 minutes ago, tater said:

Nursing has almost 2X the illness/injury rate as auto manufacturing

??? this seems entirely unsurprising

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by NFUN

[mikegarrison]

3 minutes ago, NFUN said:

??? this seems entirely unsurprising

Right. If you work around a bunch of sick people, chances are you are going to get sick yourself.

[tater]

53 minutes ago, NFUN said:

??? this seems entirely unsurprising

 

Yep, but he characterized Tesla as being  "...one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US ."

If they're off the most dangerous industries (more than just nursing) by a factor of 2, they're definitionally NOT "one of the most dangerous working conditions in the US."

 

Mobile home dealers have higher rates. Scheduled air transportation does (more sick people?). Couriers and messengers (wonder if they count the people they run into on their bikes ) are worse. Veterinary services are substantially worse (sick patients—who bite!). Armored cars (not that many get robbed, maybe just accidents, or back strain?). Spectator sports are substantially worse (dunno what worker class that is, the players (makes sense), or staff?).

Bottom line is that a huge chunk of manufacturing is in the 5-7:100k range. Tesla seems entirely normal.

Edited June 8, 2021 by tater

[Deddly]

So a lot of claims have been made about the man Elon Musk, and most of them, though not all, have already been thoroughly debunked as many users here have pointed out. I think this is a good time to say please consider checking the reliability of your sources before believing something you read in the media or social media. Not checking such things is why people start to believe in conspiracy theories and flat earth etc. 

Check yo stagin', 

Check yo sources. 

 

And now, we have probably covered that subject enough for this thread. Thanks for returning to the topic of SpaceX

[Ricktoberfest]

In other words, if you’re gonna be a conspiracy theorist, you should join a forum that doesn’t include actual rocket scientists and intellectuals.  Maybe r/politics is more your style. 

[tater]

I'd think that personalities are fair game as long as it relates to what we generally are discussing.

Musk, Bezos, and Branson are relevant to the extent it changes the engineering focus, mission focus, corporate culture, etc of the various companies.

Turning every dead period between launches into hating on X, Y, or Z because of their peccadilloes seems like more of a lounge topic (unless their ex gets half the rocket company and changes the focus of the rocket company).

I judge them on what they actually do, but I filter this through what they say they want to do at some level. So I look at what they have done, and where they seem to be going. SpaceX is at least pretty clear on both counts. BO? They've not done anything interesting yet, but I like where I think they want to go. The small sat launchers? Cool, but ultimately a dead end, IMO.

[tater]

https://www.easyzoom.com/imageaccess/4f4ec9fa1dc54579933b3faf3a065bdf

Zoomable RGV image of the build site.

[Beccab]

Cryo test seems to have finished for today, given there was no boom it probably went well. May make a test-to-destruction on another date, or more tests