KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

Khalkion · May 14, 2015

I was trying to write a small MM patch to allow mk2 and mk3 modules use interstellar fuelswitch and cryostates... and found a couple of bugs

Thermal rockets/turbojets can fly in methalox mode without any liquid oxigen. And they still can switch to pure methane mode with different thrust and isp.

However big interstellar tanks(48 and 96) have different ratios for methalox, so I don't know which values to use for patch

I'm absolutely new to mm, but here it is:

@PART[mk2*|mk3*|*mk2|*mk3|*Mk2|*Mk3|adapterMk3-Size2Slant|adapterMk3-Size2]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LiquidFuel],@RESOURCE[Oxidizer],!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant],!MODULE[InterstellarFuelSwitch]] 
{  %LF = 0
    %OX = 0
    %totalCap = 0
    %pureLF = 0
    %mixHO_H = 0
    %mixHO_O = 0
    %mixMO_H = 0
    %mixMO_O = 0
    %mass1 = 0
    %mass2 = 0    
    %cryo_powerReqKW = 0
    %liquid_boiloff = 0    

    @LF = #$RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]/maxAmount$
    @OX = #$RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$

    @totalCap = #$LF$
    @totalCap += #$OX$
    @pureLF = #$totalCap$
    @totalCap *= 4.35

    @mixHO_H = #$totalCap$
    @mixHO_H *= 0.8
    @mixHO_O = #$totalCap$
    @mixHO_O *= 0.2


    @mixMO_H = #$totalCap$
    @mixMO_H *= 0.557
    @mixMO_O = #$totalCap$
    @mixMO_O *= 0.443

    @mass1 = #$mass$
    @mass1 *= 0.6

    @mass2 = #$mass$
    @mass2 *= 2

    @cryo_powerReqKW = #$totalCap$
    @cryo_powerReqKW *= 0.001875

    @liquid_boiloff = #$totalCap$
    @liquid_boiloff *= 0.66

    MODULE {
        name = InterstellarFuelSwitch
        resourceGui = LFO;Liquid Fuel;Liquid Hydrogen;Liquid Helium;Hydrolox;Methalox;Liquid Oxygen;Liquid Methane;Liquid Ammonia;Hydrazine;Liquid Nitrogen;Liquid CarbonDioxide;Liquid CarbonMonoxide;Water 
        resourceNames = LiquidFuel,Oxidizer;LiquidFuel;LqdHydrogen;LqdHelium;LqdHydrogen,LqdOxygen;LqdMethane,LqdOxygen;LqdOxygen;LqdMethane;LqdAmmonia;Hydrazine;LqdNitrogen;LqdCO2;LqdCO;Water
        resourceAmounts = #$../LF$,$../OX$; $../pureLF$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../mixHO_H$,$../mixHO_O$; $../mixMO_H$,$../mixMO_O$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$; $../totalCap$
        basePartMass = #$../mass$
        tankMass = #0;0;0;$../mass1$;$../mass1$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;$../mass2$;0
        volumeMultiplier = 1
        massMultiplier = 1
        displayCurrentTankCost = true
        hasGUI = true
        availableInFlight = true
        availableInEditor = true        
        showInfo = true

    }
    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdHelium
        resourceGUIName =    LqdHelium
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    4.222
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdHydrogen
        resourceGUIName =    LqdHydrogen
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    20.271
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdNitrogen
        resourceGUIName =    LqdNitrogen
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    77.355
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdCO
        resourceGUIName =    LqdCO
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    81.65 
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdOxygen
        resourceGUIName =    LqdOxygen
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    90.188
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdMethane
        resourceGUIName =    LqdMethane
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    111.66
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }


    MODULE {
        name            =    FNModuleCryostat
        resourceName    =    LqdCO2
        resourceGUIName =    LqdCO2
        powerReqKW        =    #$../cryo_powerReqKW$
        boilOffRate     =    0
        boilOffTemp     =    220
        boilOffMultiplier =    1
        boilOffBase        =     #$../liquid_boiloff$
        boilOffAddition =    8.97215e-5
    }
}

Edited May 14, 2015 by Khalkion

crazyewok · May 14, 2015

No they aren't. Their performance has actually been increased, especially the upgraded versions. What has changed is the Amount of Heat produced my the reactors. It effectively means you need more radiators.

Well im just using solar panels at the moment.

is that normal?

FreeThinker · May 14, 2015

You have to understand, the Performance of the reactors is much higher now, if you used the old stats for it would result in overpower behavior.

At least I will offer a realistic application for LiquidFuel, as Propane

For electric Electric Propulsion I will add the following Fuel Mode:



ELECTRIC_PROPELLANT
{
    name = LiquidFuel
    guiName = LiquidFuel
    ispMultiplier = 0.21888
    thrustMultiplier = 1.153
    efficiency = 0.5
    type = 9
    effectName = electric_hydrogen
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
            ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }    
}

I don't allow LiquidFuel in the ATILA as the soot will short circuit the engine, blowing it up instantly

Edited May 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

ABZB · May 14, 2015

Well im just using solar panels at the moment.
is that normal?

are you overheating? solar panels usually require a quite small radiator, relatively speaking. the wasteheat value stabilizes at some amount, but unlike generators, the EC generation of the solar panels does not fall at high WH amounts. If you are sending the craft much closer to the sun, then you might have real overheating issues, though.

NeoAcario · May 14, 2015

You have to understand, the Performance of the reactors is much higher now, if you used the old stats for it would result in overpower behavior.
I will add a useful Liquid Fuel modes for Electric Propulsion mode:
ELECTRIC_PROPELLANT
{
    name = LiquidFuel
    guiName = LiquidFuel
    ispMultiplier = 0.21888
    thrustMultiplier = 1.153
    efficiency = 0.5
    type = 9
    effectName = electric_hydrogen
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
            ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }    
}
I don't allow LiquidFuel in the ATILA as the soot will short circuit the engine, blowing it up instantly

That's fine, FreeThinker.. I understand. I never use the ATILA anyways. I'm a strictly Low Power/High Efficiency Nuclear reactor, Fusion + EM transmitting KSC based power plant, and AM spaceship user.

It turns out I can just add this for my own personal use to the EnginePropellants.cfg to get back to Fractal_UK's original values. We can just agree to disagree. You want to make a simulator, I want to edit it a bit to play nicely with Vanilla KSP and keep it a game. Please don't be offended.


BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
	name = LiquidFuel
	guiName = LiquidFuel
	ispMultiplier = 1
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = LiquidFuel
        	ratio = 1
		DrawGauge = True
	}
}
BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
	name = LFO
	guiName = LFO
	ispMultiplier = 0.6289
	thrustMultiplier = 3.7
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = LiquidFuel
        	ratio = 0.45
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = Oxidizer
		ratio = 0.55
		DrawGauge = True
	}
}

I still love ya and appreciate you keeping this mod compatible,

~Steve

FreeThinker · May 14, 2015

Obviously, Oxidizer is really OF2. They hide the true name for tax and insurance reasons.

Oxygen difluoride? realy? That stuff is Dynamite! I didn't even dare to use it, it's more dangerous than Hydrazine as it reacts with almost anything.

Edit: the problem however that real OF2 has a Boiling point of -223C

Edited May 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

Coga19000 · May 14, 2015

Damn, so many posts popped out of nowhere...

Sure, what do you have in mind?

Well, there are quite some syntax mistakes that would make it a bit more professional -looking if they were gone. Secondly, seeing that your willing to give some detailed information about the reactors, maybe you should go in detail for the other important features of the mod (preferably in spoilers). And well, some other bits and pieces that In not fully sure how to implement yet.

I would be happy to make them myself, but I am about to get deprived of pretty much all of this week's free time stydying for the finals' Ancient Greek exam (Biology is gonna be a PITA, too, being in a bare two -day interval from my Ancient Greek) But maybe I could work on it after Thursday and PM it to you?

FreeThinker · May 14, 2015

That's fine, FreeThinker.. I understand. I never use the ATILA anyways. I'm a strictly Low Power/High Efficiency Nuclear reactor, Fusion + EM transmitting KSC based power plant, and AM spaceship user.
It turns out I can just add this for my own personal use to the EnginePropellants.cfg to get back to Fractal_UK's original values. We can just agree to disagree. You want to make a simulator, I want to edit it a bit to play nicely with Vanilla KSP and keep it a game. Please don't be offended.
BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
    name = LiquidFuel
    guiName = LiquidFuel
    ispMultiplier = 1
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
            ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
}
BASIC_NTR_PROPELLANT
{
    name = LFO
    guiName = LFO
    ispMultiplier = 0.6289
    thrustMultiplier = 3.7
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LiquidFuel
            ratio = 0.45
        DrawGauge = True
    }
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = Oxidizer
        ratio = 0.55
        DrawGauge = True
    }
}
I still love ya and appreciate you keeping this mod compatible,
~Steve

Offended? I'm a bit disappointed! I think you don't realize how overpowered this is compared to Fractals original configuration and makes the game less interesting. Perhaps you should look a little further, because the other propellant had a considerable upgrade as well. Take for instance Ammonia. Thanks to is thrust and Isp bonus, it allow you to get much heavier cargo into orbit which is NTR main usage in the end game anyway.

Edited May 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

ABZB · May 14, 2015

Oxygen difluoride? realy? That stuff is Dynamite! I didn't even dare to use it, it's more dangerous than Hydrazine as it reacts with almost anything.

yeah... I was kind of kidding there :sticktongue:

Neouni · May 14, 2015

I like to run my engines on hydrazine in other words monopropellant,

highly toxic and when in contact with skin or water creates acids.

So next time I run my monoprop near your kerbal I'm trying to kill it with volatile hot gasses.

Wouldn't mind seeing Karbonite as a fuel, just like fractal added kethane in the past.

Integrate not separate.

FreeThinker · May 14, 2015

yeah... I was kind of kidding there

Actualy it's intresting as an advanced fuel which you might get access to with higher tech nodes. It could significantly boost LFO mode

- - - Updated - - -

I like to run my engines on hydrazine in other words monopropellant,
highly toxic and when in contact with skin or water creates acids.
So next time I run my monoprop near your kerbal I'm trying to kill it with volatile hot gasses.
Wouldn't mind seeing Karbonite as a fuel, just like fractal added kethane in the past.
Integrate not separate.

Well at least Kathane, is an elite fuel which I could interpreted as methane with the added advantage of higher density

Edited May 14, 2015 by FreeThinker

NeoAcario · May 14, 2015

Offended? I'm a bit disappointed! I think you don't realize how overpowered this is compared to Fractals original configuration and makes the game less interesting. Perhaps you should look a little further, because the other propellant had a considerable upgrade as well. Take for instance Ammonia. Thanks to is thrust and Isp bonus, it allow you to get much heavier cargo into orbit which is NTR main usage in the end game anyway.

I actually just rebuilt one of my 1.25m warp tugs from a Pic just before 0.9... identical performance with my fuel settings. Although, for some reason it weighs 1 ton more.

Before:

After:

FYI.. KAS/KIS was updated just a few hours ago.

~Steve

EDIT:

Scratch that.. the VAC TWR is too high... about double.

Edited May 14, 2015 by NeoAcario

FreeThinker · May 14, 2015

[h=2]Version 1.1.3 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2[/h] Released on 2015-05-14

Re-added Pure LiquidFuel as an NTR and Electro Magnetic Propellant with the properties of propane and will deposit soot on the NTR heat exchangers causing thrust loss and heat buildup.
Re-added Pure Liquid Fuel Tank
Balanced Heat Production caused by Soot

Khalkion · May 14, 2015

A little more reports...

Thermal engines don't respect oxygen in methalox mode and don't use it. Found out that EnginePropellants.cfg has methane as second propellant instead of oxygen.

Interstellar tanks have different ratios for methalox. Suppose that X200-48 should have 13368 methane and 10632 oxygen instead of current 26736 and 6684. Also noze cone and X200-4 don't have mix modes if it is not intended...

Thermal engines can build negative soot values with appropriate fuels such as liquid hydrogen or water and so increasing thrust.

And about generators... we had 31% and 60% for thermal and 85% for charged particles generators. But now charged particles generators indicates 31% and 60% just as thermal ones. I doubt if it is a bug or just new change...

PS Large fusion reactor still has GWs of power with NFe installed.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Khalkion

A2K · May 14, 2015

FreeThinker, those empty nodes in CommunityTechTree are not a bug. They are used by other mods. Hiding them with hideEmpty=true causes problems with other modes by making some nodes inaccessible. There is currently no way to hide only empty nodes which are not required by any non-empty node. I suggest just keeping empty nodes in tree for now for compatibility with parts mods. Maybe a better solution would be to update parts configs to use all of community tree nodes, but most people playing this mod have many other mods installed, so most of us will not see many empty nodes.

Here is an example of a problem: http://ishack.co/p5CyCKQxp - Fusion Power can not be researched because it depends on High Energy Nuclear Power which is hidden because it does not unlock any parts. The game does not reroute connections for hidden nodes, so there is no way to get fusion reactor.

NeoAcario · May 14, 2015

[h=2]Version 1.1.3 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2[/h] Released on 2015-05-14
Re-added Pure LiquidFuel as an NTR and Electro Magnetic Propellant with the properties of propane and will deposit soot on the NTR heat exchangers causing thrust loss and heat buildup.
Re-added Pure Liquid Fuel Tank
Balanced Heat Production caused by Soot

BUG:

Current version still does not scale antimatter collectors collection values between different sizes via tweakscale. 0.1m all the way up to 10.0m still bring in 3.99mg per day at 890km over Kerbin.

~Steve

Dreadp1r4te · May 15, 2015

Offended? I'm a bit disappointed! I think you don't realize how overpowered this is compared to Fractals original configuration and makes the game less interesting. Perhaps you should look a little further, because the other propellant had a considerable upgrade as well. Take for instance Ammonia. Thanks to is thrust and Isp bonus, it allow you to get much heavier cargo into orbit which is NTR main usage in the end game anyway.

This may be true, but it's extremely limiting in terms of applications; since I can't go to C7 Aerospace and request a fuselage with fuel storage for Liquid Hydrogen and Oxygen as I could in real life, I simply can't use these on SSTOs. The problem here is that you're limiting functionality based on partially implemented realism; if you added an MM script to make all fuel tanks have the option of being a powered cryostat and contain the advanced fuels, that would be acceptable, but since only a handful of fuel tanks currently support them, it's very limiting.

FreeThinker · May 15, 2015

This may be true, but it's extremely limiting in terms of applications; since I can't go to C7 Aerospace and request a fuselage with fuel storage for Liquid Hydrogen and Oxygen as I could in real life, I simply can't use these on SSTOs. The problem here is that you're limiting functionality based on partially implemented realism; if you added an MM script to make all fuel tanks have the option of being a powered cryostat and contain the advanced fuels, that would be acceptable, but since only a handful of fuel tanks currently support them, it's very limiting.

Good point, I need to add more options to use Cryostatic Fuels or Exotic Fuels, they are quite high in the tech tree right now.

EDIT: I believe there are several people currently creating switching tanks for all, perhaps we can integrate them in KSPI-E

- - - Updated - - -

BUG:
Current version still does not scale antimatter collectors collection values between different sizes via tweakscale. 0.1m all the way up to 10.0m still bring in 3.99mg per day at 890km over Kerbin.
~Steve

Good find, I will investigate

- - - Updated - - -

FreeThinker, those empty nodes in CommunityTechTree are not a bug. They are used by other mods. Hiding them with hideEmpty=true causes problems with other modes by making some nodes inaccessible. There is currently no way to hide only empty nodes which are not required by any non-empty node. I suggest just keeping empty nodes in tree for now for compatibility with parts mods. Maybe a better solution would be to update parts configs to use all of community tree nodes, but most people playing this mod have many other mods installed, so most of us will not see many empty nodes.
Here is an example of a problem: http://ishack.co/p5CyCKQxp - Fusion Power can not be researched because it depends on High Energy Nuclear Power which is hidden because it does not unlock any parts. The game does not reroute connections for hidden nodes, so there is no way to get fusion reactor.

I can't remember, I put any node at hideEmpty = false. On the contrary, I make them visible. I fully understand the problem and if I had the time I would create a technical better solution.

Edit: the reason is an updated version of Community Techtree and I forgot to upgrade

- - - Updated - - -

PS Large fusion reactor still has GWs of power with NFe installed.

Crap, I see now, a missing r

- - - Updated - - -

And about generators... we had 31% and 60% for thermal and 85% for charged particles generators. But now charged particles generators indicates 31% and 60% just as thermal ones. I doubt if it is a bug or just new change...

This is not my intention. What is my intention is that they are now 2 separate electric generators (with their own models). I could not reproduce the problem. You should try again with next version.

- - - Updated - - -

Version 1.1.4 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2

Released on 2015-05-15

Update Community TechTree to 2.1
Fixed Negative Soot Accumulation
Prevent switching type of Electric Generator
Fixed Power scaling for Large Fusion Reactor in NF / SETI mode
Made Antimatter Collector scale with surface Size
Fixed Methalox not using Oxygen as second propellant
Fixed Methalox fix in Interstellar FuelTank

Edited May 15, 2015 by FreeThinker

crazyewok · May 15, 2015

Well im just using solar panels at the moment.
is that normal?

No they are just overheating in Mun orbit.

Khalkion · May 15, 2015

This is not my intention. What is my intention is that they are now 2 separate electric generators (with their own models). I could not reproduce the problem. You should try again with next version.

Oh, sorry, my bad, I forgot that antimatter reactor produces 80% charged particles, not 100. So production of direct conversion generator is correct. I was confused by decription in VAB, which is the same as for thermal generator...

Adamantium9001 · May 15, 2015

1. The KerbalStuff download page claims that this is listed on CKAN, but it's not (I searched for "ksp", "interstellar", and "extended", always with Filter>All, and it wasn't there).

2. The download package contains folders for other mods, e.g. Community Tech Tree and Filter Extensions. If I already have some of these installed, can I skip putting their folders into GameData, or are these versions specially tweaked to work better with KSPIE? If it's the latter, which files are new/changed?

FreeThinker · May 15, 2015

We are working on integration into CKAN, but it's not as easy as most mods due to the many dependancies

NeoAcario · May 15, 2015

Version 1.1.4 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2
Released on 2015-05-15
Made Antimatter Collector scale with surface Size

Was any consideration taken with regards to the mass? That 10m AM Collector is something like 2,000 tons! I wonder if it's more or less efficient than 500 regular AM collectors. Guess I'll run some more size tests.

~Steve

Adamantium9001 · May 15, 2015

We are working on integration into CKAN, but it's not as easy as most mods due to the many dependancies

That's totally fine. Don't get the wrong idea; the only reason I even mentioned CKAN is because the download page had that tag (or whatever it's called). But may I suggest removing the tag until the mod actually is on CKAN?

And speaking of dependencies, what about my second question?

The download package contains folders for other mods, e.g. Community Tech Tree and Filter Extensions. If I already have some of these installed, can I skip putting their folders into GameData, or are these versions specially tweaked to work better with KSPIE? If it's the latter, then which files are new/changed?

NeoAcario · May 15, 2015

FreeThinker,

2 things about AM Collectors.

1> They are being displayed as the wrong size. The standard size is 2.5m and not 1.25m.

2> Larger AM Collectors are in no way worth using. In fact, it looks to me like one size smaller (listed as 0.625, but is actually 1.25m) is actually the most efficient. 1/4 the AM rate but 1/10th the mass.

Are you trying to make them in any way balanced for mass.. or should I just go ahead and consider my math done and stick to the one size reduced collectors?

~Steve

PS

64x AM Collection rate for 500x the mass for the 10m AM Collector? That's a good joke!!

Edited May 15, 2015 by NeoAcario

KSP Interstellar Extended Continued Development Thread

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