Shuttle Challenge v5 - The STS thread [Stock and Mod Friendly] - MAJOR CHALLENGE ANNOUNCEMENT! - 30.3.2020

[Johnster_Space_Program]

I accept your STS challenge!

I will do videos for every mission, and also these are the mods im using:

Texture Replacer

Distant Object Enhancement

Dark Multiplayer

Contract Configuator

Edit: I also have Kerbal Engineer Redux Now

I hope I will have a great time completing each mission and getting those badges one at a time michal.don!

Edited February 14, 2019 by Johnster_Space_Program

[michal.don]

On 2/11/2019 at 2:41 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

I'll just update the post and let you know here when it's done

Finally got to checking the videos - sorry for the delay (again). There is nothing fishy going on indeed, great series of missions, nice pinpoint landings, so no complaints on my part - here is your badge:

Congrats!

On 2/11/2019 at 10:58 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

Question about the STS-9 mission:  Is there a minimum size to the asteroid? or can I wait for a class A to show up?

No, there is not any size limit, but I encourage people to go crazy - it's real fun trying to land stuff like this one:

 

On 2/11/2019 at 7:35 PM, Laie said:

I've only prepared a gallery of my STS-2 mission because, while docking was slow and careful and rather exciting for me, I don't believe it would come over too well in a video.

Screenshot reports are fine, too  Nice mission, though I have to wonder - why did you aim for the "pilot" level only? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just used to people going for the "commander" level most of the time.

About the fuel pod recovery - it seems that your script really manaes different masses quite well - better than I expected! Now I'm wondering how it will deal with high orbit reentries or inclined orbits

So, two new badges for you:

Congratulations!

 

On 2/11/2019 at 7:35 PM, Laie said:

Sorry if I'm being a pest, but may I possibly qualify for the skunkworks award?

While your script is proving to be quite impressive and versatile, I don't think you are on the "Skunkworks" level yet  That is really a rare award, as only two people have got the badge in the history of the challenge, and their missions were really something outstanding, even in this very creative community. But your script definitely caught my attention, so let's see everything it's capable of, and I might reconsider later  

6 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

I accept your STS challenge!

Welcome to the challenge!

I'm glad you like the premises of the challenge, and I hope you have fun designing and flying you shuttle! I'm looking forward to your first entry and awarding you your first badge, and hopefully many more later

 

Michal.don

[4x4cheesecake]

5 minutes ago, michal.don said:

No, there is not any size limit, but I encourage people to go crazy - it's real fun trying to land stuff like this one:

Yeah, let's call it "fun" instead of "almost impossible to keep control" to keep poeple trying this mission

[michal.don]

2 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Yeah, let's call it "fun" instead of "almost impossible to keep control" to keep poeple trying this mission

These two are not mutualy exclusive, in my humble opinion  

[Mr. Peabody]

5 hours ago, michal.don said:

No, there is not any size limit, but I encourage people to go crazy - it's real fun trying to land stuff like this one:

If taking unnecessary risks can be considered "fun."

[linuxgurugamer]

43 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

If taking unnecessary risks can be considered "fun."

It not unnecessary!  These asteroids are filled with Kyrofoam, an important resource used in construction of, well, almost anything....

[sturmhauke]

44 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

If taking unnecessary risks can be considered "fun."

Do you even play this game?!

[Johnster_Space_Program]

11 hours ago, michal.don said:

Welcome to the challenge!

I'm glad you like the premises of the challenge, and I hope you have fun designing and flying you shuttle! I'm looking forward to your first entry and awarding you your first badge, and hopefully many more later

 

Michal.don

So, I was wondering, does it count if you were to make a shuttle, put it in a fairing, and launch it on top of a rocket, where after reaching above 70,000m the shuttle decouples from the rocket, enters into orbit, and lands itself?

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Johnster_Space_Program

[linuxgurugamer]

4 minutes ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

So, I was wondering, does it count if you were to make a shuttle, put it in a fairing, and launch it on top of a rocket, where after reaching above 70,000m the shuttle decouples from the rocket, enters into orbit, and lands itself?

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm doing

[Johnster_Space_Program]

14 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Yes, that is exactly what I'm doing

Thanks, just wanted to know before doing that, this is the shuttle I currently have for sts-1a: (Lower Torque is better, right?)

[Johnster_Space_Program]

Also, if after I complete STS-1a, do I have to do STS-1b next or can I go straight to STS-2a?

[Johnster_Space_Program]

So, I have completed the first shuttle challenge mission, STS-1a! After a successful ascent to orbit, I tried to land on the KSC Runway, I wasn't able too, but I did get close! After watching the video below (in which I did the mission a little different from most people), I can't wait to get awarded the first badge and prepare for the next mission! 

P.S: I'm also doing the doing the duna insight and kerpollo challenge at the same time, so this isn't the only challenge im trying to complete.

[4x4cheesecake]

2 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

So, I have completed the first shuttle challenge mission, STS-1a

Welcome to the Challenge

That's an interesting Shuttle you've build, there are not many MK2 Orbiter around here.

If you don't mind, I would suggest two things:

1) Add some kind of an endcap/nose cone on the rear. An unused connection node adds a lot of drag to your orbiter.

2) Don't timewarp through the reentry. Yes, it can be annoying but it is impossible to keep the Orbiter in a stable position, which is perfectly shown in your video. A stable and controllable pitch during different phases of the reentry allows you to control where you are going to land. Even if it looks like you are going to undershoot after ~1/3 of  the reentry, it is possible to get in front of your Ap again to gain altitude and strech your flight (without using your engines).

 

4 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

Also, if after I complete STS-1a, do I have to do STS-1b next or can I go straight to STS-2a?

I guess you can skip 1b and 2b since the title says 'Bonus Mission' but I'm not quiet sure. I would suggest to do these missions anyway, they will test the limits of your shuttle and your pilot skills.

 

edit: Also, don't forget to list the installed mods. Even though it looks like that you have just KER installed, you have to declare it at least once

Edited February 14, 2019 by 4x4cheesecake

[Johnster_Space_Program]

8 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Welcome to the Challenge

That's an interesting Shuttle you've build, there are not many MK2 Orbiter around here.

If you don't mind, I would suggest two things:

1) Add some kind of an endcap/nose cone on the rear. An unused connection node adds a lot of drag to your orbiter.

2) Don't timewarp through the reentry. Yes, it can be annoying but it is impossible to keep the Orbiter in a stable position, which is perfectly shown in your video. A stable and controllable pitch during different phases of the reentry allows you to control where you are going to land. Even if it looks like you are going to undershoot after ~1/3 of  the reentry, it is possible to get in front of your Ap again to gain altitude and strech your flight (without using your engines).

 

I guess you can skip 1b and 2b since the title says 'Bonus Mission' but I'm not quiet sure. I would suggest to do these missions anyway, they will test the limits of your shuttle and your pilot skills.

 

edit: Also, don't forget to list the installed mods. Even though it looks like that you have just KER installed, you have to declare it at least once

Thanks for these tips! I didn't get KER installed until after the other mods so that's why it wasn't there. Also im planning to make a new shuttle for future missions more based on a real one (mk3 cockpit).

[michal.don]

13 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

Also, if after I complete STS-1a, do I have to do STS-1b next or can I go straight to STS-2a?

You can go straight to STS-2a, the "b" missions are optional, bonus missions and are not required to complete before progressing further.

 

11 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

So, I have completed the first shuttle challenge mission, STS-1a!

Nice demonstration mission of your first shuttle - good job! The reentry was quite precise, with a bit of training you'll be landing at the KSC in no time  So, here's the first badge for you:

Congratulations!

 

Michal.don

[Noir]

3 hours ago, michal.don said:

...the "b" missions are optional

That clears up my confusion as to why the missions are somewhat oddly numbered.

Speaking about STS-1b: if the fuel pod's orbit is below 1999km, there can only be a difference of 100m between the Ap and Pe?
Example:
Ap =80000m
Pe = 80100m

I'm not over thinking it or anything?

[hoioh]

1 hour ago, Noir said:

That clears up my confusion as to why the missions are somewhat oddly numbered.

Speaking about STS-1b: if the fuel pod's orbit is below 1999km, there can only be a difference of 100m between the Ap and Pe?
Example:
Ap =80000m
Pe = 80100m

I'm not over thinking it or anything?

That looks like you understand perfectly

[Johnster_Space_Program]

8 hours ago, michal.don said:

Nice demonstration mission of your first shuttle - good job! The reentry was quite precise, with a bit of training you'll be landing at the KSC in no time

Thanks! Do you have any tips on how to make a good shuttle with lots of maneuverability? I'm trying to make a mk3 shuttle now but everytime I test it it doesn't turn and pitch up easily, usually crashing.

[Laie]

On 2/13/2019 at 11:02 AM, michal.don said:

About the fuel pod recovery - it seems that your script really manaes different masses quite well - better than I expected! Now I'm wondering how it will deal with high orbit reentries or inclined orbits

Quite well... at least with this shuttle. To recap, it pitches to brake, rolls to avoid lift, and that's that. There is a "if nothing else, roll a little" function, but that doesn't provide much steering (it's mostly because I couldn't stand the plane doing nothing, and I figured that a 20° roll shouldn't cost much lift in any event, so I could throw it in any time there's nothing more urgent going on). But any serious steering is incidental to how it strives to manage airspeed and altitude.

Still, I've just played through three attempts and found that I have to deliberately make a ridiculously bad de-orbit burn, or it will line up well enough that the approach and landing looks very similar to previous attempts.

 

[sturmhauke]

1 hour ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

Thanks! Do you have any tips on how to make a good shuttle with lots of maneuverability? I'm trying to make a mk3 shuttle now but everytime I test it it doesn't turn and pitch up easily, usually crashing.

The main thing is to check your center of lift and center of mass. If the CoL is farther back, it makes your craft more stable but less maneuverable. Moving it farther forward will make it more maneuverable, but for spaceplanes (including shuttles) you don't necessarily want too much maneuverability because you risk breaking stuff at reentry speeds.

You don't appear to have any conventional elevator surfaces, just canards and angled tailfins, and small ones at that. I generally use a traditional delta wing + tall vertical stabilizer, with separate elevators and rudders. Sometimes I use an H-tail for greater stability (like the shuttle I'm building for STS-9 to haul a space potato). I might use canards for pitch assistance, but never as the only pitch control.

[Johnster_Space_Program]

2 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

The main thing is to check your center of lift and center of mass. If the CoL is farther back, it makes your craft more stable but less maneuverable.

How does this look? (The CoL and Mass are in about the same place, is that good?)

[sturmhauke]

You may find that your shuttle pitches too quickly, but you'll have to experiment and see how it flies.

[hoioh]

7 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

How does this look? (The CoL and Mass are in about the same place, is that good?)

How is it without the cargo?

Does it move much as the fuel drains?

Going up usually isn't much of an issue, though your center of mass and thrust need to line up (with and without cargo) to make orbital maneuvers go smoothly, the better aligned the more smoothly it goes.

Going down without a payload means you will be low on fuel and the bays are empty since you left it all in space, that's when you want your col to just about touch the com with the arrow to get stable flight at low speeds. At high speeds you might want to move all your remaining fuel forward for stability and move it back once you're down to about 600 m/s.

For 2b you're going down with cargo, but still low on fuel, so you may have to reconfigure a little for that one to obtain the same flight characteristics as for 2a

Once you've got that down everything else should be a matter of scale and the next real challnges are the ones where you're going to land on another body (and maybe sts9 due to sheer size and mass of the object)

[michal.don]

17 hours ago, Noir said:

Speaking about STS-1b: if the fuel pod's orbit is below 1999km, there can only be a difference of 100m between the Ap and Pe?

Exactly.

 

12 hours ago, Johnster_Space_Program said:

Thanks! Do you have any tips on how to make a good shuttle with lots of maneuverability? I'm trying to make a mk3 shuttle now but everytime I test it it doesn't turn and pitch up easily, usually crashing.

To be honest, I don't think lots of maneuverability is needed in a shuttle - quite the contrary. The only thing that is handy to have is pitch authority - and a lot of people use canards clipped into the cockpit for that (or lots of elevons on the rear end). Too much roll authority can prove to be... difficult... during reentry, in my experience.

 

[4x4cheesecake]

51 minutes ago, michal.don said:

Too much roll authority can prove to be... difficult... during reentry, in my experience. 

In my experience, not just during reentry. Even during the launch it can cause a lot of trouble, particularly on an asymmetrical design. I have honestly no idea how the real shuttle did this trick, if someone has informations about this topic, I'm interested^^
I've tried to figure this out while building my latest shuttle and so far, from my understanding, the offset between the roll axis and the thust axis causes a lot of trouble if you try to roll the shuttle during launch. I've also tried to visualize it on a screenshot:

You can see, the thrust vector is aligned with the CoM at launch so the shuttle will actually not ascent in a straight vertical line but along this vector.
Depending on how you try to roll the shuttle, you will end up with a different roll axis. If you use the elevons on the wings, the roll axis will be pretty much vertical through the shuttle, if you use the vector engines on the orbiter, the shuttle will roll around the thrust vector of the vector engines. A combination of both will probably result in an axis between those vectors, but it is pretty much impossible, to align the roll axis, with the actual thrust vector.
As soon as you try to roll, you will also push the thrust vector in a different direction so it is no longer alinged with your prograde vector, which results in a change of your flight direction. If this misalignement becomes too big, chances are good that you will nevery reach space.

Not quiet sure if this explanation is correct but it kinda fits to the results whenever I've tried to roll the shuttle during launch.