Shuttle Challenge v5 - The STS thread [Stock and Mod Friendly] - MAJOR CHALLENGE ANNOUNCEMENT! - 30.3.2020

[sturmhauke]

1 hour ago, michal.don said:

Looking very good!. And the fuel pod looks so small in the enormous cargo bay, I can already see the wild stations and bases that will be able to fit in this one  

Good job, here's your badge:

Thanks! It's funny, I didn't realize just how big the Mk 4 bays are until I started flying missions. They come in the same lengths as the Mk 3 bays, but they're like 2-3 times the volume. Plus they have integrated fuel tanks which is nice.

[hoioh]

3 hours ago, michal.don said:

(And to be honest, I am sometimes a bit disappointed when even the best pilots of you always go to the perfect 100x100 equatorial orbit before reentering instead of just going for it, that's not the right stuff

I know, I'm lazy, but I design for a near KSC drop. Without trajectories installed I miss by about 1000km and that's too much to correct because my shuttles always return on litteral fumes... I aim for extreme controllability in low atmo and reasonable control up high. Not always the most stable, but 9 out of 10 times I can recover from a spin and still land on the runway.

[Kerbolitto]

9 hours ago, michal.don said:

(And to be honest, I am sometimes a bit disappointed when even the best pilots of you always go to the perfect 100x100 equatorial orbit before reentering instead of just going for it, that's not the right stuff  )

This is not true

 

edit : see STS Duna 1 2 & 3, STS Eve 1, STS Mun 3, 4 & 5

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[4x4cheesecake]

6 hours ago, michal.don said:

(And to be honest, I am sometimes a bit disappointed when even the best pilots of you always go to the perfect 100x100 equatorial orbit before reentering instead of just going for it, that's not the right stuff  )

 Dang, now I have to go for a direct descent from interplanetary space

edit: The different reactions to this small sentence are quiet interesting

Edited October 19, 2018 by 4x4cheesecake

[Mr. Peabody]

2 hours ago, Kerbolitto said:

(And to be honest, I am sometimes a bit disappointed when even the best pilots of you always go to the perfect 100x100 equatorial orbit before reentering instead of just going for it, that's not the right stuff  )

Nay. We re-enter from 200 Kilometers.

[sturmhauke]

3 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

Nay. We re-enter from 200 Kilometers.

Well I mean I did on my last mission...

[Kerbolitto]

44 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

Nay. We re-enter from 200 Kilometers.

The quote that you quoted is not my quote, but michal's quote !

I edited my message above to prove you wrong @michal.don !

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kerbolitto

[michal.don]

Wow, I did not expect such a response to my only-half-seriously meant remark  But since you all caught up so nicely, it's showtime! Another

NEW TEST PILOT MISSION!

Got you this time, didn't I?

Your mission will be to deliver an Apollo-like spacecraft to Mun via a free return trajectory, and perform a direct entry and landing with your shuttle. Details are in the OP, and another badge is up for grabs!

I hope you have fun guys,

Michal.don

 

 

[Kerbolitto]

16 minutes ago, michal.don said:

NEW TEST PILOT MISSION!

Great ! What would be the limit of a "small" correction burn ?

[4x4cheesecake]

27 minutes ago, michal.don said:

Got you this time, didn't I?

You did

28 minutes ago, michal.don said:

Wow, I did not expect such a response to my only-half-seriously meant remark  But since you all caught up so nicely, it's showtime!

Hehe
Since I haven't done STS - 4T yet, I'll perform the direct reentry from Duna during Duna STS - 2...like a test for the test mission, you know

[michal.don]

33 minutes ago, Kerbolitto said:

Great ! What would be the limit of a "small" correction burn ?

I don't want to specify a delta-V value, but think rather "periapsis correction" than "circularizing"  

19 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

like a test for the test mission, you know

testing the testing, sounds reasonable  

[Petrovich]

10 hours ago, michal.don said:

NEW TEST PILOT MISSION!

Funky, I like it!

So, I was trying to complete STS-2B and was gonna use a manipulator arm (built from Infernal Robotics) to capture it.

 

However, the magnet ate too much power so I detached it from the pod and started moving it to the default position. Then this happened...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And every time I reloaded, everything looked like this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: Be careful with your robotic arms or they'll catapult you into some nether plane from which there is no return.

Also here is my design for the upcoming space station: https://imgur.com/a/L0fC7uu

Inspired by the Freedom space station design and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUdeun-ChJw

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Petrovich

[4x4cheesecake]

 

13 minutes ago, Petrovich said:

Be careful with your robotic arms or they'll catapult you into some nether plane from which there is no return.

Reminds me of Shady ^^

14 minutes ago, Petrovich said:

Also here is my design for the upcoming space station: https://imgur.com/a/L0fC7uu

Cool design, I like it Are you going to use a different shuttle to build the station? It looks a little bit too big for the orbiter in the pictures above, at least if you want to build it within the 4 launches for STS 5 - 8.

[Petrovich]

9 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Cool design, I like it Are you going to use a different shuttle to build the station? It looks a little bit too big for the orbiter in the pictures above, at least if you want to build it within the 4 launches for STS 5 - 8.

Phase I was the configuration I was planning on assembling on STS 5-8. The others were pretty much just for fun.

I'm curious of where refueling at the station at the beginning or end of interplanetary missions stands in the rules.

[4x4cheesecake]

11 minutes ago, Petrovich said:

Phase I was the configuration I was planning on assembling on STS 5-8. The others were pretty much just for fun.

I'm curious of where refueling at the station at the beginning or end of interplanetary missions stands in the rules.

Ahh, I see. I like to build more stuff than required as well

I guess, refuelling is just allowed if a support package can be used for a mission but this is something @michal.don should answer

------

I just got the saddest screen possible for my Duna STS - 2 mission:

It was almost a perfect flight (haven't used any quickloads until this moment)... I landed on Duna, returned to Kerbin, performed a (almost) direct reentrty (had to go one orbit around to adjust the trajectory a bit but the Pe was always below 70km), arrived at the KSC just to screw up the landing which wasn't even challenging in any way Just the same easy landing like everytime but apparently, it's easier to land on Duna -.-
I got so mad about this stupid mistake, I actually thought about reverting the flight...

[Kerbolitto]

8 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Wow, this is bad
It happenned a few times to me and now I just save before every maneuver "just in case" even if most of the times it's useless.. Sorry for you

[4x4cheesecake]

1 hour ago, Kerbolitto said:

It happenned a few times to me and now I just save before every maneuver "just in case" even if most of the times it's useless.

That's what I'm doing as well and usually, I have to use a quicksave at least once for several reasons like: fixing visual/mod related issues, overshot a maneuver node through timewarp, getting a better angle for a screenshot or actually a bad maneuver/crash...but this time I had the rare chance to do the whole mission in one shot.

Well, at least the landing on Duna was pretty nice with a long glide below 200m above the ground  

 

(2x speed)

[4x4cheesecake]

So, I've tried to upload a video of the whole mission this time but I'm not satisfied with the result after editing, so heres the classic screenshot version

 

Duna STS - 2

My original plan was to launch a proper support package in a rocket (because I haven't build a rocket for a long time ) but after a quick test, I found out that I'm just missing ~400m/s dV so it's easier to put some aditional fuel into the cargo bay and park it at the space station while landing on Duna.

Also, I've updated my install to 1.4.5 to fix the reentry FX and added two more mods: 'Sigma Replacements Skybox' (to install a Skybox^^) and 'Reentry Particle Effect' (but I've removed the plasma trail). Not sure if I'll keep 'Reentry Particle System' since it doesn't look very well on an orbiter.

Spoiler

Lift-off at sunrise

Keeping the ET a bit longer than usual to save as much fuel as possible in the orbiter:

Transfering to Duna:

Aerobreaking at Duna:

Rendevouz with the outpost from Duna STS - 1:

Parking some additional fuel at the station:

Descending to Dunas surface:

Touchdown:

Climbing across the orbiter to repack the chutes:

Let's head back to the space station:

Putting the additional fuel back into the orbiter:

Return trajectory:

Bad timing for a direct reentry so just an aerobreak:

Going for a long flight through the upper atmosphere:

Approaching the KSC:

Landed on the runway:

Album: https://imgur.com/a/XlVT4sS

I've also posted a video of the landing on Duna in the post above, since this is the actual highlight of the flight

[Kerbolitto]

24 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Duna STS - 2

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lift-off at sunrise

Keeping the ET a bit longer than usual to save as much fuel as possible in the orbiter:

Transfering to Duna:

Aerobreaking at Duna:

Rendevouz with the outpost from Duna STS - 1:

Parking some additional fuel at the station:

Descending to Dunas surface:

Touchdown:

Climbing across the orbiter to repack the chutes:

Let's head back to the space station:

Putting the additional fuel back into the orbiter:

Return trajectory:

Bad timing for a direct reentry so just an aerobreak:

Going for a long flight through the upper atmosphere:

Approaching the KSC:

Landed on the runway:

 

 Nicely done mate !

[AeroGav]

Is there any clarification on the rules of this thing,  as to what precisely constitutes a "space shuttle"?   I feel as though i should make it resemble the historic system as much as possible,   but there's three things i always struggled with

1.  vertical launch..    is it ok to take off horizontally instead,  that way you don't need your highest twr right when your vessel is at it's heaviest  (Partially solved with an ungodly huge cluster of Fleas and Thumpers for a "stage minus one" , that only gets you to 100 m/s   .  

2.   no jet engines on launch (jets for landing are ok ) ... is that right?    Makes for ginormous rocket fuel tanks 

3.  does it have to have external tank underneath and boosters either side of the external tank..  or is it ok go with more symmetrical layouts clustered around the fuselage :-)

Would love to do the Duna challenge someday :-)

[4x4cheesecake]

46 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

Is there any clarification on the rules of this thing,  as to what precisely constitutes a "space shuttle"?   I feel as though i should make it resemble the historic system as much as possible,   but there's three things i always struggled with

1.  vertical launch..    is it ok to take off horizontally instead,  that way you don't need your highest twr right when your vessel is at it's heaviest  (Partially solved with an ungodly huge cluster of Fleas and Thumpers for a "stage minus one" , that only gets you to 100 m/s   .  

2.   no jet engines on launch (jets for landing are ok ) ... is that right?    Makes for ginormous rocket fuel tanks 

3.  does it have to have external tank underneath and boosters either side of the external tank..  or is it ok go with more symmetrical layouts clustered around the fuselage :-)

Would love to do the Duna challenge someday :-)

1) There is a definition of an Space Shuttle in the OP, followed by some rules and most of them will answer your questions. After re-reading them, I have to admit that there is no rule or definition which describes the launch direction (vertical or horizontal), but I have the gut feeling that you have to launch vertically. The defintion is no very restrictive (which is good), so everything that can be launched into space on a launch vehicle and return to kerbin in one piece, on its own power and land there horizontally, is already a shuttle

2) I cannot find a rule which prohibit jet engines during launch (or any other moment). Actually, the Artemis Shuttle of @Artienia got some jet engines, if you want to take a look. Since they are dead weight in space, jet engines are just uncommon.

3) The Launch Vehicle can be everything you want but you have to get rid of it at some point during the flight I've also seen some symetrical designs already (I'll add a link as well if I can find the correct page^^)

edit: Ozelui got a pretty symetrical design

Edited October 20, 2018 by 4x4cheesecake

[Petrovich]

After clawing our way from the shady dimension, we got back underway

STS-2B: https://imgur.com/a/9a1jTR5

between problems with the arm, numerous attempts to reenter a several ton payload, and getting hurled into the zone, I think we should've just let MulletDyne handle the situation 

Also, would this work for the Skylab for STS-4T?

Mods:

Cormorant Aeronology

Bluedog Design Bureau

Infernal Robotics

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Petrovich

[sturmhauke]

6 hours ago, AeroGav said:

Is there any clarification on the rules of this thing,  as to what precisely constitutes a "space shuttle"?   I feel as though i should make it resemble the historic system as much as possible,   but there's three things i always struggled with

1.  vertical launch..    is it ok to take off horizontally instead,  that way you don't need your highest twr right when your vessel is at it's heaviest  (Partially solved with an ungodly huge cluster of Fleas and Thumpers for a "stage minus one" , that only gets you to 100 m/s   .  

2.   no jet engines on launch (jets for landing are ok ) ... is that right?    Makes for ginormous rocket fuel tanks 

3.  does it have to have external tank underneath and boosters either side of the external tank..  or is it ok go with more symmetrical layouts clustered around the fuselage :-)

Would love to do the Duna challenge someday :-)

1. I skimmed through some earlier versions of the challenge and didn't see any rulings on horizontal takeoff. But I also think it goes against the spirit of the challenge. SSTOs are explicitly forbidden for the start of a mission (although the orbiter can function as one for operations on other bodies, like Duna).

2. Jet engines aren't particularly useful for vertical takeoff and ascent. I mean I've done it, but it's not pretty. Plus they won't get you to orbit without assistance anyway.

3. @4x4cheesecake linked a couple symmetric examples already; there are a ton of others out there. I think they weren't allowed in the original version, but they are now. Word is that they make the RTLS abort mission harder than it already is though (I haven't done that one yet).

[AeroGav]

@sturmhauke

@4x4cheesecake

I did a rocket powered horizontal launch once and was thinking of trying a rocket sled launch with recovery chutes for the sled after the failure of my latest vertical launchold vid -

Spoiler

fg

 

As for jet engines  I guess the problem is that in the real world you don't get a sufficient fraction of orbital peed out of them (real scale orbit is mach 21) to justify their weight.  I have built many craft with dispoable jets however -

Spoiler

 

those jet pods on top of the wings come off at mach 2.5, then it's got 3 nervs.     Wing loading and TWR are similar in both modes so it's fairly easy to control,  unlike a shuttle stack in the atmosphere..

You could say "jets ok sol long as you launch vertically",  but then i'd just use a cluster of fleas to throw me to 200m ,  then level out and fly the rest of the climb like an airplane.

[sturmhauke]

Before I started on this series, I was experimenting with a horizontal spaceplane with boosters design for my career game. I tried a few different configurations - disposable jets, disposable rockets, drop tanks only. I found that making something with significant payload capacity (50t+) that could take off from the runway and get to orbital speed was actually pretty difficult, moreso than just making an SSTO. Underslung stuff doesn't give you much ground clearance, and overslung stuff has a strong tendency to rip wings off. This can be countered with sepratrons etc. but that makes staging more complex.

In comparison, traditional shuttles certainly have balance issues, but once you figure that part out the actual flying isn't really that hard.