[1.12.2] BARIS - Building A Rocket Isn't Simple

[Hotaru]

I really like the look of this mod--don't know if I'll install it in my HSP save or not (I like the idea but none of the ships in that save were built with the possibility of part failures in mind) but I'll almost certainly use it for my next one.

18 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

Elect to enable launch failures during staging events.

If you don't mind a suggestion: one thing I'd like to see would be the possibility of a catastrophic failure any time during launch (for some definition of "launch," be it "first 10 minutes of flight" or "altitude hasn't exceeded 70km yet" or whatever) rather than just during staging events. Partly cause I think it'd be cooler and more realistic that way (plenty of real rocket failures happen mid-stage and are unrelated to staging events) and partly cause it sounds like you could dodge the issue by using action groups or right clicking to stage.

 

PS. Question: for parts like engines or drills that are sometimes on, sometimes off--does MTBF refer to time since launch or time in operation? Or both?

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hotaru

[Angelo Kerman]

55 minutes ago, Hotaru said:

I really like the look of this mod--don't know if I'll install it in my HSP save or not (I like the idea but none of the ships in that save were built with the possibility of part failures in mind) but I'll almost certainly use it for my next one.

If you don't mind a suggestion: one thing I'd like to see would be the possibility of a catastrophic failure any time during launch (for some definition of "launch," be it "first 10 minutes of flight" or "altitude hasn't exceeded 70km yet" or whatever) rather than just during staging events. Partly cause I think it'd be cooler and more realistic that way (plenty of real rocket failures happen mid-stage and are unrelated to staging events) and partly cause it sounds like you could dodge the issue by using action groups or right clicking to stage.

 

PS. Question: for parts like engines or drills that are sometimes on, sometimes off--does MTBF refer to time since launch or time in operation? Or both?

Hm.. Well, I can detect when a vessel first launches with an event from KSP, so I could add that in. Thanks for the suggestion.

MTBF reflects operating time. If you run your drills constantly then they'll wear out faster than if you run them sporadically. The same goes for engines. But each time you start or stop your engines and such, there is a chance that they will fail.

Fuel tanks are the exception. They have a MTBF since launch. Essentially assumes that their cooling systems and such are always on, or they take micrometer damage over time, etc.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Angel-125

[linuxgurugamer]

@Angel-125 got a small problem:

I added Baris to my test install, and enabled it in a sandbox game.

I left all the settings alone, other than enabling the "Parts can break"

I went into the flight scene, saw the button and clicked it.

I didn't see anything, but here is the log file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kivq4u80z96jqco/output_log.txt?dl=0

It apparently tried to open a window, but there was nothing there.  See the picture below, just below and left of the altimeter:

 

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

@Angel-125 got a small problem:

I added Baris to my test install, and enabled it in a sandbox game.

I left all the settings alone, other than enabling the "Parts can break"

I went into the flight scene, saw the button and clicked it.

I didn't see anything, but here is the log file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kivq4u80z96jqco/output_log.txt?dl=0

It apparently tried to open a window, but there was nothing there.  See the picture below, just below and left of the altimeter:

 

ok, I'll take a look. Haven't seen that one..

[linuxgurugamer]

@Angel-125

Just an FYI, when I turned on debug, I got a good window

I tried forcing failures using the debug window, tried the critical failure, then staged and nothing happened. Set parts to zero quality and zero mtbf, nothing happened

Edited August 16, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[Angelo Kerman]

18 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

@Angel-125

Just an FYI, when I turned on debug, I got a good window

I tried forcing failures using the debug window, tried the critical failure, then staged and nothing happened. Set parts to zero quality and zero mtbf, nothing happened

Ok, I'll need more info, what mods do you have installed, logs with debug turned on, etc.

[linuxgurugamer]

54 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Ok, I'll need more info, what mods do you have installed, logs with debug turned on, etc.

When I turn debug on, the window works.

Mods:  I deleted all mods, the only thing here was this mod.

Log files in this zip, one with debug off, one with debug turned on in the session, and one with it on from the start (specified by file name)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3fkfravswe1kgu/BarisLogs.zip?dl=0

 

This is in the flight scene.  It looks like that maybe the window isn't supposed to be shown in flight if debug is off?  I

 

[Angelo Kerman]

4 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

When I turn debug on, the window works.

Mods:  I deleted all mods, the only thing here was this mod.

Log files in this zip, one with debug off, one with debug turned on in the session, and one with it on from the start (specified by file name)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3fkfravswe1kgu/BarisLogs.zip?dl=0

 

This is in the flight scene.  It looks like that maybe the window isn't supposed to be shown in flight if debug is off?  I

 

No, it should be shown when debug is turned off. Sounds like there's something getting stomped on. I'll try to recreate the issue on my end.

[linuxgurugamer]

4 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

No, it should be shown when debug is turned off. Sounds like there's something getting stomped on. I'll try to recreate the issue on my end.

Ok.  I created two new games to be sure:

New Sandbox:  I loaded from the spacecenter both KerbalX and GDLV3, it happend on both.

New Career: Make a starting ship, it happened on the Launchpad.  It did open a window in the VAB

 

Oh, could it be related to not doing integration?

Edited August 17, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[ObiWanCanoli]

Hi, not sure if this is a stupid question but is this mod compatible with Dangit?

[linuxgurugamer]

Aaaaarrrggggghhhh!!!!!!!!

I didn't have ModuleManager installed!  I got the window now.

But, I  did find another problem:

Career game, only enabled it, didn't change any options

Made the normal starting ship (chute, MK1 pod, SRb)

The Vehicle Integration window was odd:

Available Workers: 0/25

Reliability: -2147483648/-2147483648

Cost: NaN

 

In flight, it showed the window, and I did get failures

Edited August 17, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[Angelo Kerman]

39 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Aaaaarrrggggghhhh!!!!!!!!

I didn't have ModuleManager installed!  I got the window now.

But, I  did find another problem:

Career game, only enabled it, didn't change any options

Made the normal starting ship (chute, MK1 pod, SRb)

The Vehicle Integration window was odd:

Available Workers: 0/25

Reliability: -2147483648/-2147483648

Cost: NaN

 

In flight, it showed the window, and I did get failures

Oh yeah, ModuleManager is a good thing. That's some seriously bad reliability too! If you haven't hired any workers from the Space Center screen, then the Available Workers is correct.

[linuxgurugamer]

3 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Oh yeah, ModuleManager is a good thing. That's some seriously bad reliability too! If you haven't hired any workers from the Space Center screen, then the Available Workers is correct.

 

 The reliability just looks like an uninitialized valei'm iue.on initialized value

Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase.

[Angelo Kerman]

3 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

 

 The reliability just looks like an uninitialized valei'm iue.on initialized value

Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase.

No worries, glad we got it sorted. It's a new release and there are bound to be issues. I will look at the reliability calculations for the next update so you don't get the weird numbers.

[panarchist]

7 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

MTBF reflects operating time. If you run your drills constantly then they'll wear out faster than if you run them sporadically. The same goes for engines. But each time you start or stop your engines and such, there is a chance that they will fail.

I realize that this is a super minor nitpick, but regarding the KSPedia page - MTBF is Mean Time Between Failures (plural).

Enjoying BARIS a lot so far - it's got all of what I liked about Dang-It! but I like the look and feel of this more than I did with Dang-It!

[linuxgurugamer]

7 hours ago, panarchist said:

I realize that this is a super minor nitpick, but regarding the KSPedia page - MTBF is Mean Time Between Failures (plural).

Enjoying BARIS a lot so far - it's got all of what I liked about Dang-It! but I like the look and feel of this more than I did with Dang-It!

I suppose that I should be hurt

But it is a much newer mod, I only have DangIt in a maintenance mode.

So, some questions and comments @Angel-125:

How does the integration compare to KCT?  The OP says they are compatible, but I don't yet understand how they work together.  It seems that using the normal integration, there would be no need for KCT

The failures seem to get two messages, one to say that a failure occurred, and one to say what failed.  Two comments on this:

1. Put them into a single message using a \n to put them on two lines
2. They go away too quickly, maybe increase the time-on-screen

In a beginning game, I am getting failures very quickly.  For example, I put a Mk1 out with a decoupler for testing, triggered the decoupler and the command pod failed, even though Baris said the reliability was 5/5.  Default settings:

Quality Cap: 80, Difficulty: Normal, QC/day: 3,

Noticed a few oddities in the Settings screen, all when creating a new save:

Oddity 1

• Enabled "Parts can break"
• Changed difficulty from "custom" to any other
• Observed that the "Parts can break" was disabled, but all the fields related to that stayed on the screen and were active
• Enabling/disabling the "Parts can break" didn't seem to have any effect anymore

Oddity 2

• Changed difficulty from "Normal" to any other
• "Parts can break" became non-functional, in that while I could enable/disable it, nothing happened

In both of these cases, canceling the settings and going back in reset the issue.

I really like the mod, looks like it will add a lot to the game.  I can only imagine how much time you put into it.

 

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I suppose that I should be hurt

But it is a much newer mod, I only have DangIt in a maintenance mode.

So, some questions and comments @Angel-125:

How does the integration compare to KCT?  The OP says they are compatible, but I don't yet understand how they work together.  It seems that using the normal integration, there would be no need for KCT

The failures seem to get two messages, one to say that a failure occurred, and one to say what failed.  Two comments on this:

1. Put them into a single message using a \n to put them on two lines
2. They go away too quickly, maybe increase the time-on-screen

In a beginning game, I am getting failures very quickly.  For example, I put a Mk1 out with a decoupler for testing, triggered the decoupler and the command pod failed, even though Baris said the reliability was 5/5.  Default settings:

Quality Cap: 80, Difficulty: Normal, QC/day: 3,

Noticed a few oddities in the Settings screen, all when creating a new save:

Oddity 1

• Enabled "Parts can break"
• Changed difficulty from "custom" to any other
• Observed that the "Parts can break" was disabled, but all the fields related to that stayed on the screen and were active
• Enabling/disabling the "Parts can break" didn't seem to have any effect anymore

Oddity 2

• Changed difficulty from "Normal" to any other
• "Parts can break" became non-functional, in that while I could enable/disable it, nothing happened

In both of these cases, canceling the settings and going back in reset the issue.

I really like the mod, looks like it will add a lot to the game.  I can only imagine how much time you put into it.

 

The answer to how it works with KCT is in the KSPedia..  You can find a copy of the KSPedia pages on the first page of the wiki as well. 

The nature of the two lines reflects that more than one thing can break on a single part. I can increase the onscreen time though. You might also want to check the flight log...

Failures early on is normal, as they were in the early space program. 5/5 is intended, and is why vehicle integration is needed. The KSPedia also has some tips that will help.

The oddities sounds like some issues that need to be sorted, I'll check those out.

[linuxgurugamer]

4 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

The answer to how it works with KCT is in the KSPedia..  You can find a copy of the KSPedia pages on the first page of the wiki as well. 

The nature of the two lines reflects that more than one thing can break on a single part. I can increase the onscreen time though. You might also want to check the flight log...

Failures early on is normal, as they were in the early space program. 5/5 is intended, and is why vehicle integration is needed. The KSPedia also has some tips that will help.

The oddities sounds like some issues that need to be sorted, I'll check those out.

There is a lot to read, I'll continue reading.

I got the failures after integration, but I'll assume that this is normal.

Thanks

[Angelo Kerman]

16 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

There is a lot to read, I'll continue reading.

I got the failures after integration, but I'll assume that this is normal.

Thanks

No problem.  BARIS is not one of those mods where you can just install and go, which is why I have the nice big screen at the start that suggests reading the KSPedia. If I knew how KSP displayed the tool tips screen with Gene, Wernher and such, I would use that extensively because I know users don't RTFM.

Failures after integration is definitely normal.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Angel-125

[DerekL1963]

I'm guessing this goes here, even though the problem was found via M.O.L.E.

Last night after installing MOLE 1.8 and BARIS 1.0.5, I encountered some problems, so I started from scratch:

- Deleted the Wild Blue Industries folder.
- Installed MOLE 1.8
- Deleted the 000BARIS folder
- Installed BARIS 1.0.5

Entered an existing Sandbox save, did not get the BARIS popup.   Went into Settings and found BARIS disabled.  (Which it should have been, just mentioning for completeness.)

Bugs:

- In the VAB, the Quality Control information is still displayed.
- In the flight scene, a white square appears on the stock toolbar, clicking on it I receive a message that "BARIS is disabled" and provides instructions for enabling it.

Thinking it might have been a first time startup thing, exited and restarted the game, and the situation persisted.

Started a new Sandbox game, double checked Settings and found BARIS disabled by default (as it should have been).  When the game (save?) loaded at the KSC scene, the BARIS popup (telling me it was disabled and how to enable it) appeared.  The same bugs (in the VAB and flights scenes) also appeared.

I guess I can live with the VAB stuff, but if BARIS is disabled it should not appear on the stock toolbar.
 

Edited August 17, 2017 by DerekL1963

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, DerekL1963 said:

I'm guessing this goes here, even though the problem was found via M.O.L.E.

Last night after installing MOLE 1.8 and BARIS 1.0.5, I encountered some problems, so I started from scratch:

- Deleted the Wild Blue Industries folder.
- Installed MOLE 1.8
- Deleted the 000BARIS folder
- Installed BARIS 1.0.5

Entered an existing Sandbox save, did not get the BARIS popup.   Went into Settings and found BARIS disabled.  (Which it should have been, just mentioning for completeness.)

Bugs:

- In the VAB, the Quality Control information is still displayed.
- In the flight scene, a white square appears on the stock toolbar, clicking on it I receive a message that "BARIS is disabled" and provides instructions for enabling it.

Thinking it might have been a first time startup thing, exited and restarted the game, and the situation persisted.

Started a new Sandbox game, double checked Settings and found BARIS disabled by default (as it should have been).  When the game (save?) loaded at the KSC scene, the BARIS popup (telling me it was disabled and how to enable it) appeared.  The same bugs (in the VAB and flights scenes) also appeared.

I guess I can live with the VAB stuff, but if BARIS is disabled it should not appear on the stock toolbar.
 

If you're seeing a white square in the toolbar button then it means that BARIS isn't properly installed. BARIS goes in the GameData/WildBlueIndustries/000BARIS folder.

Also be sure to install ModuleManager, it's required.

You should always see the BARIS toobar button since BARIS can be enabled at any time.

[DerekL1963]

Just now, Angel-125 said:

If you're seeing a white square in the toolbar button then it means that BARIS isn't properly installed. BARIS goes in the GameData/WildBlueIndustries/000BARIS folder.

That's exactly where it is.


 

1 minute ago, Angel-125 said:

You should always see the BARIS toobar button since BARIS can be enabled at any time.

No, thank you, I have BARIS disabled because I don't want it in my game.  If it's not in my game, it should not be taking up screen space.  It's bad enough that I have to update it so I don't get an error message when I'm loading the game.  (Because I don't have the option to not install it in the first place.)

[panarchist]

4 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I suppose that I should be hurt

But it is a much newer mod, I only have DangIt in a maintenance mode.

@linuxgurugamer - Don't get me wrong, Dang-It! is a great mod, my issues with it are due to implementation decisions by Ippo - and really only because I had an 11-year mission to Cercani - not exactly a mission suited to that mod.  My main issue is that Dang-It! only affected the active vessel.  Maybe that's changed, I haven't used it since shortly after you took it over.  I use a large number of the mods you maintain, you're doing great work - so it's definitely not an intended slight.

 

[Krakatoa]

10 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

That's exactly where it is.


 

No, thank you, I have BARIS disabled because I don't want it in my game.  If it's not in my game, it should not be taking up screen space.  It's bad enough that I have to update it so I don't get an error message when I'm loading the game.  (Because I don't have the option to not install it in the first place.)

You have it in the 000WildBlueTools folder instead of the WildBlueIndustries folder.

[Angelo Kerman]

29 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

That's exactly where it is.


 

No, thank you, I have BARIS disabled because I don't want it in my game.  If it's not in my game, it should not be taking up screen space.  It's bad enough that I have to update it so I don't get an error message when I'm loading the game.  (Because I don't have the option to not install it in the first place.)

I suggest you revert your mods to the previous version then. Having BARIS as an optional install is on my list but currently not possible due to design limitations that I'm currently working on. Once I get that sorted though, BARIS will be bundled with MOLE, as its functionality was intended since the beginning of the mod.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Angel-125