totm dec 2019 Russian Launch and Mission Thread

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 2:22 PM, tater said:

The Russians hot-stage (next stage ignition and staging at the same time). The lattice is for the exhaust gasses to escape.

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Except when it's not part of the standard rocket.

Apparently it's neither a hot-stage NOR has ullage motors.

[kerbiloid]

So, a station
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=www.interfax.ru/russia/596661&edit-text=

[Pand5461]

  On 1/23/2018 at 11:15 AM, kerbiloid said:

So, a rocket.

https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=www.interfax.ru/russia/596681&edit-text=

I.e aerospike

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So, a reusable aerospike SSTO. Too good to be true?

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 5:38 PM, Pand5461 said:

So, a reusable aerospike SSTO. Too good to be true?

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Hydrolox SSTO. Feasible? Perhaps.

Monies? Nope.

[insert_name]

  On 1/23/2018 at 3:28 PM, DDE said:

Except when it's not part of the standard rocket.

Apparently it's neither a hot-stage NOR has ullage motors.

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I thought Anagra used the same second stage engine as soyuz, maybe some sort of rcs settles the propellant?

[Kulebron]

  On 1/23/2018 at 5:12 PM, kerbiloid said:

So, a station
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=www.interfax.ru/russia/596661&edit-text=

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Roskosmos has to show some activity before the government to maintain importance, that's why they keep proposing such projects. (For the same reason, Russian Railways (state-owned corporation) keep disucssing high-speed lines for 15 years without any action.) But currently, budget income keeps decreasing, other ministeries and agencies sell themselves too, and it's very unlikely such an expensive project gets financement.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Kulebron

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 6:38 PM, insert_name said:

I thought Anagra used the same second stage engine as soyuz, maybe some sort of rcs settles the propellant?

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Not entirely the same.

But sadly there's no word ANYWHERE on Angara's ullage thrusters. I see clear mention of first stage separation retromotors, but I don't recall non-reaction ullage system for kerolox (Anatoly Zak has just published a section on LK's hypergolic Blok Ye and its capillaries); Angara's URM-2 has no RCS. Blok D has dedicated ullage motors on top of RCS, BTW, and so does KVTK.

  On 1/23/2018 at 7:45 PM, Kulebron said:

Roskosmos has to show some activity before the government to maintain importance, that's why they keep proposing such projects. (For the same reason, Russian Railways (state-owned corporation) keep disucssing high-speed lines for 15 years without any action.) But currently, budget income keeps decreasing, other ministeries and agencies sell themselves too, and it's very unlikely such an expensive project gets financement.

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Ditto for weekly flip-flopping between all-Russian LEO station, DSG and manned Moon landing.

Edited January 23, 2018 by DDE

[kerbiloid]

  On 1/23/2018 at 7:45 PM, Kulebron said:

Roskosmos has to show some activity before the government to maintain importance, that's why they keep proposing such projects. (For the same reason, Russian Railways (state-owned corporation) keep disucssing high-speed lines for 15 years without any action.) But currently, budget income keeps decreasing, other ministeries and agencies sell themselves too, and it's very unlikely such an expensive project gets financement.

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I just was going to say that its current vision is 5-module and 3-human.

  On 1/23/2018 at 7:52 PM, DDE said:

Ditto for weekly flip-flopping between all-Russian LEO station, DSG and manned Moon landing.

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Making bets...

  On 1/23/2018 at 7:52 PM, DDE said:

...Hm, but you know who else really should have ullage thrusters but doesn't?

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Doesn't it have RCS engines used as ullage ones?

Edited January 23, 2018 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 7:54 PM, kerbiloid said:

Doesn't it have RCS engines used as ullage ones?

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That's for the first stage. It took me some digging to find out that the second stage DOES have four Dracos.

Geez, the documentation of SpaceX rockets is almost as spotty as Russian ones...

Well, @tater, to clear my conscious for today, I've found this random thread on Novosti Cosmonavtiki:

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/messages/forum13/topic9042/message374367/#message374367

It's from 2008, around the time the program for RD-0124A, a restartable engine for URM-2, was dropped. The user highlighted states in no unequivocal terms that URM relies solely on the four gimbaled nozzles; at best a "semi-hot" staging. The whole thread is basically a discussion of ullage motors (cold gas, monoprop, hypergol, even Buran's kerolox) and other ways to resurrect the restartable/tug URM-2, up to and including orbital refueling.

*laughs in Musk*

Edited January 23, 2018 by DDE

[sh1pman]

  On 1/23/2018 at 8:10 PM, DDE said:

Geez, the documentation of SpaceX rockets is almost as spotty as Russian ones...

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There’s a documentation for Russian rockets? 

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 8:29 PM, sh1pman said:

There’s a documentation for Russian rockets? 

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...more like 4chan threads.

Except 4chan has better loading times. See above for what I've dug up.

Edited January 23, 2018 by DDE

[insert_name]

  On 1/23/2018 at 8:10 PM, DDE said:

That's for the first stage. It took me some digging to find out that the second stage DOES have four Dracos.

Geez, the documentation of SpaceX rockets is almost as spotty as Russian ones...

Well, @tater, to clear my conscious for today, I've found this random thread on Novosti Cosmonavtiki:

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/messages/forum13/topic9042/message374367/#message374367

It's from 2008, around the time the program for RD-0124A, a restartable engine for URM-2, was dropped. The user highlighted states in no unequivocal terms that URM relies solely on the four gimbaled nozzles; at best a "semi-hot" staging. The whole thread is basically a discussion of ullage motors (cold gas, monoprop, hypergol, even Buran's kerolox) and other ways to resurrect the restartable/tug URM-2, up to and including orbital refueling.

*laughs in Musk*

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So my complaint about firing a kerolox engine down an air intake still stands for the reusable version?

[PB666]

  On 1/23/2018 at 8:10 PM, DDE said:

from 2008, around the time the program for RD-0124A, a restartable engine for URM-2, was dropped. The user highlighted states in no unequivocal terms that URM relies solely on the four gimbaled nozzles; at best a "semi-hot" staging. The whole thread is basically a discussion of ullage motors (cold gas, monoprop, hypergol, even Buran's kerolox) and other ways to resurrect the restartable/tug URM-2, up to and including orbital refueling.

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Is that so implausible?

[DDE]

  On 1/23/2018 at 10:04 PM, PB666 said:

Is that so implausible?

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I dunno. Conventional wisdom says big rocket engine + no ullage = kaboom.

[kerbiloid]

  Reveal hidden contents

  On 1/23/2018 at 8:29 PM, sh1pman said:

There’s a documentation for Russian rockets? 

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Please, call the nearest servicing center. Any unauthorized attempt of modification violates EULA and makes the warranty void.

Btw, it turns out that Corona is alredy in wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CORONA_(SSTO)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корона_(ракета-носитель)
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корона_(ракета-носитель)&edit-text=

Design evolution of the project (from wiki)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

  On 1/24/2018 at 5:19 AM, kerbiloid said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Please, call the nearest servicing center. Any unauthorized attempt of modification violates EULA and makes the warranty void.

Btw, it turns out that Corona is alredy in wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CORONA_(SSTO)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корона_(ракета-носитель)
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корона_(ракета-носитель)&edit-text=

Design evolution of the project (from wiki)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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LOL, is that an Atlas-style skirt with two RD-0120s I see in the first iteration?

[kerbiloid]

One of Angara developers about Corona (from a interview):

(Transgoogled)

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Will the "Crown" be built, what prospects does this project open for Russia?

"While the Korona project has not been officially restarted, there is only the desire of the Makeyev people to resume financing it," said Cosmokurs, one of the developers of the Angara missile at the FGUP GKNPC in the name of MV Lomonosov. Khrunichev Pavel Pushkin. - Roscosmos did not react to the initiative of the SEC, but it seems that this proposal will be considered.

It is necessary to understand: the project "Crown" is focused on the newest technologies. This is an innovative engine, and alloys, and super-new composite materials almost from nanotubes. In fact, this project answers the question: what would be in rocket construction, if the mentioned technologies had already been mastered?

But such technologies, alas, not yet - nowhere in real life they have not been used. And most importantly, if these advanced technologies are used in rockets of traditional design, there will also be a super effect.

In other words, it is impossible to compare a single-stage missile on innovative technologies with traditional rockets on old technologies.

"JV": - We are far behind the Americans in mastering these new technologies?

- We are close to being with the Americans on the same level. In some ways our overseas colleagues have moved a little further, but this is not a global break. Roughly speaking, they have better composite materials than Russian ones, but not as much as they claim.

"JV": - And how is the problem solved with a wedge-air missile engine?

- Such a liquid rocket engine has been in operation for a long time, and preliminary tests of an engine of this type have even been carried out in the United States. Calculations show that it does give a tangible effect: the pulse increases, the mass of the liquid rocket engine decreases. However, each time an in-depth study of the engine stumbles upon questions, primarily of a technological nature. Moreover, there are no reliable calculation methods showing how this engine works.

The same center Makeyev says that a wedge-air engine will be created, but they themselves did not study the matter deeply. Americans, I note, are also trying to build such an engine - there are even overseas companies that are actively engaged in this. But they did not go further than the declarations.

Maybe in five years or so such an engine will indeed be built. But with it, again, the current multi-stage missiles can fly.

"SP": - Why did the designers return to single-stage missiles?

"A single-stage rocket is a very attractive idea." In this case, the operating costs are reduced, the reliability of the missile is increased. Multistage missiles began to be applied not from a good life - from the fact that the energy was not enough.

And, before there were many steps - there were even four-stage missiles. But the latest trends can be formulated as follows: in space it is necessary to fly on two levels. In fact, the further the technology develops, the less steps are required. And the project "Crown", in fact, says one thing: in the future, when the technology will be steep, we will be able to switch to a single-stage multiple-use rocket launcher scheme.

I think this is really the main way of development of rocket engineering. But at the current level of technology to talk about single-stage reusable missiles is too early. Only in 20-30 years, perhaps, we will come to such missiles.

P.S. Google translated all occurences of "rocket" as "missile", lol. Like a reusable ICBM.

Edited January 24, 2018 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

  On 1/24/2018 at 9:16 AM, kerbiloid said:

One of Angara developers about Corona (from a interview):

(Transgoogled)

  Reveal hidden contents

Will the "Crown" be built, what prospects does this project open for Russia?

"While the Korona project has not been officially restarted, there is only the desire of the Makeyev people to resume financing it," said Cosmokurs, one of the developers of the Angara missile at the FGUP GKNPC in the name of MV Lomonosov. Khrunichev Pavel Pushkin. - Roscosmos did not react to the initiative of the SEC, but it seems that this proposal will be considered.

It is necessary to understand: the project "Crown" is focused on the newest technologies. This is an innovative engine, and alloys, and super-new composite materials almost from nanotubes. In fact, this project answers the question: what would be in rocket construction, if the mentioned technologies had already been mastered?

But such technologies, alas, not yet - nowhere in real life they have not been used. And most importantly, if these advanced technologies are used in rockets of traditional design, there will also be a super effect.

In other words, it is impossible to compare a single-stage missile on innovative technologies with traditional rockets on old technologies.

"JV": - We are far behind the Americans in mastering these new technologies?

- We are close to being with the Americans on the same level. In some ways our overseas colleagues have moved a little further, but this is not a global break. Roughly speaking, they have better composite materials than Russian ones, but not as much as they claim.

"JV": - And how is the problem solved with a wedge-air missile engine?

- Such a liquid rocket engine has been in operation for a long time, and preliminary tests of an engine of this type have even been carried out in the United States. Calculations show that it does give a tangible effect: the pulse increases, the mass of the liquid rocket engine decreases. However, each time an in-depth study of the engine stumbles upon questions, primarily of a technological nature. Moreover, there are no reliable calculation methods showing how this engine works.

The same center Makeyev says that a wedge-air engine will be created, but they themselves did not study the matter deeply. Americans, I note, are also trying to build such an engine - there are even overseas companies that are actively engaged in this. But they did not go further than the declarations.

Maybe in five years or so such an engine will indeed be built. But with it, again, the current multi-stage missiles can fly.

"SP": - Why did the designers return to single-stage missiles?

"A single-stage rocket is a very attractive idea." In this case, the operating costs are reduced, the reliability of the missile is increased. Multistage missiles began to be applied not from a good life - from the fact that the energy was not enough.

And, before there were many steps - there were even four-stage missiles. But the latest trends can be formulated as follows: in space it is necessary to fly on two levels. In fact, the further the technology develops, the less steps are required. And the project "Crown", in fact, says one thing: in the future, when the technology will be steep, we will be able to switch to a single-stage multiple-use rocket launcher scheme.

I think this is really the main way of development of rocket engineering. But at the current level of technology to talk about single-stage reusable missiles is too early. Only in 20-30 years, perhaps, we will come to such missiles.

P.S. Google translated all occurences of "rocket" as "missile", lol. Like a reusable ICBM.

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I'm beginning to actually see how Makeyeev can get this funded.

They'll pitch it to the military. And then they'll mention Zuma. And USA 207. And aliens. And promise a manned version with autocannons.

Because ultimately, thus far the Russian booster line-up is entirely driven by military requirements.

[MaxwellsDemon]

  On 1/24/2018 at 9:49 AM, DDE said:

Because ultimately, thus far the Russian booster line-up is entirely driven by military requirements.

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Pretty much the same for the majority of the American stable of boosters, too, for that matter...   I think it's a universal condition unless you're Burt Rutan or someone like that.

[DDE]

  On 1/24/2018 at 1:13 PM, MaxwellsDemon said:

Pretty much the same for the majority of the American stable of boosters, too, for that matter...   I think it's a universal condition unless you're Burt Rutan or someone like that.

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It's more overt, thanks to having a third spaceport. The military doesn't touch Vostochny, and guess what happens.

[kerbiloid]

  On 1/24/2018 at 1:19 PM, DDE said:

The military doesn't touch Vostochny, and guess what happens.

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The military left it when it was Svobodny.

[DDE]

  On 1/24/2018 at 3:16 PM, kerbiloid said:

The military left it when it was Svobodny.

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It wasn't exactly invested into staying there.

[DDE]

Well, the r/space thread on Korona amusingly degenerated into a chain of complaints how it's a copy of Falcon 9 and BFR based on stolen tech.

[kerbiloid]

  On 1/24/2018 at 7:52 PM, DDE said:

a copy of Falcon 9 and BFR

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They can't distinguish Falcon and BFR from DC-X?

[DDE]

  On 1/24/2018 at 8:14 PM, kerbiloid said:

They can't distinguish Falcon and BFR from DC-X?

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Nobody tried landing rockets vertically before Elon Musk.

Although mostly they're agitated by carbon composite construction.