Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[Codraroll]

Some pictures of a launch from Yangjiang yesterday morning:

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202312/06/WS656fbfb3a31090682a5f19e8_1.html

I'm no expert on aerodynamics, but this could not possibly be healthy for the payload?

Spoiler

No word on whether anything failed, but I wouldn't expect those authorities to admit failure even if the rocket exploded on live national television.

[SunlitZelkova]

1 minute ago, Codraroll said:

Some pictures of a launch from Yangjiang yesterday morning:

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202312/06/WS656fbfb3a31090682a5f19e8_1.html

I'm no expert on aerodynamics, but this could not possibly be healthy for the payload?

  Reveal hidden contents

No word on whether anything failed, but I wouldn't expect those authorities to admit failure even if the rocket exploded on live national television.

They have already confirmed successful launch btw.

China is not known for covering up failures. For example, the failure of the commercial CERES-1 rocket was well known. It had a second, successful flight just a couple days ago.

[SunlitZelkova]

EDIT- Also if you look closely, you will see the fairing is still there. Stuff just peeled off, the fairing didn’t actually collapse.

EDIT 2- Okay, so post merge doesn’t work all the time…

Edited December 6, 2023 by SunlitZelkova

[AckSed]

I wonder if there was a cryogenic propulsion stage in there?

[SunlitZelkova]

5 hours ago, AckSed said:

I wonder if there was a cryogenic propulsion stage in there?

Wiki says all four stages of the Jielong-3 use solid rocket motors, same as the ZK-1 (“Kinetica 1”).

Speaking of the Kinetica, here’s an update on the rocket family.

https://x.com/cnspaceflight/status/1732398920524050913?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A

For those that can’t see the Tweet, CAS Space, the makers of the Kinetica series, have four rockets in development:

1. Kinetica-2, with a 7.8 ton payload to SSO. It looks like a Falcon Heavy.

2. Kinetica-2H, with a 12 ton payload to SSO. It looks like the Kinetica-2 but slightly stretched.

3. Kinetica-3, with a 20 ton payload to SSO. It looks like Starship/Super Heavy but is smaller, of course. It is intended to be fully reusable.

4. They are also the ones behind the New Shepard-Crew Dragon hybrid looking suborbital rocket for space tourism.

Interestingly, despite looking like Falcon Heavy, the Kinetica 2 and 2H are both triple core solid fueled rockets. Only the Kinetica-3 and the suborbital tourism rocket are liquid fueled. No further details are available on engines and what types of propellant for them as far as I can tell.

CAS Space is a semi-private spaceflight company partially owned by the Chinese Academy of Sciences. I think its existence says something about bureaucratic competition in China and the things a market economy enables different institutions to do 

[SunlitZelkova]

Very interesting news! This is the first time hardware for one of the Chinese Falcon 9 “clones” has been seen AFAIK. LandSpace’s Zhuque-3 may soon undergo a hop test.

https://x.com/cnspaceflight/status/1733752233530102068?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A

Zhuque-3 looks like Falcon 9 but is intended to be made of stainless steel and use methalox.

And meanwhile the Hyperbola-2 (of i-Space I think) has done its own hop test.

https://x.com/cnspaceflight/status/1733788444646883443?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A

Hyperbola-2 was originally intended to be a small launch rocket (only 1.4~ ton payload to LEO) that would reusable. But in July they announced it would be cancelled and they would skip straight to Hyperbola-3, which also looks a lot like Falcon 9. They aim for the first launch in 2025 and first recovery attempt in 2026.

Meanwhile, the government built Long March 8R has long since passed the planned first recovery attempt date of the single unit core-boosters, which IIRC was supposed to happen in 2022. There hasn’t been a lot of news about it and I have to wonder if they will do it at all. The Long March series is pretty much the only rocket keeping up with Falcon 9 in terms of launches (once Starlink is removed), and thus there isn’t really any need for a reusable rocket right now.

Reusability might be better explored by funding the Long March 9 instead, which will play a bigger role if China plans to take on any potential Western led effort to make use of space resources. Otherwise, expendable rockets suffice for now. It would be better to let the private industry handle reusability.

[darthgently]

7 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Otherwise, expendable rockets suffice for now. It would be better to let the private industry handle reusability.

Or state agencies could purchase reusable rockets from companies building them.  If it saves tax dollars, I'm for it.  They could sell them at government auctions like trucks when they are done with them

[SunlitZelkova]

7 hours ago, darthgently said:

Or state agencies could purchase reusable rockets from companies building them.  If it saves tax dollars, I'm for it.  They could sell them at government auctions like trucks when they are done with them

I feel like it would be cheaper to just buy launches from private companies. Purchasing a rocket would entail having a supply line set up for maintenance, which, come to think of it, is something I’ve never seen suggested or discussed anywhere. But in all likelihood this sort of setup won’t be ready for a long time, and thus we won’t see rockets being sold like long haul trucks- the rocket builders will continue to be the transport company too.

[SunlitZelkova]

https://x.com/cnspaceflight/status/1734617114445529565?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A
 

Just as X-37B prepares to launch again, China’s spaceplane will be launching too!

That December 14 is China time, so these will be launching on the same day. It will be interesting to see who returns to Earth first and after how long.

[darthgently]

3 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

https://x.com/cnspaceflight/status/1734617114445529565?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A
 

Just as X-37B prepares to launch again, China’s spaceplane will be launching too!

That December 14 is China time, so these will be launching on the same day. It will be interesting to see who returns to Earth first and after how long.

What would be interesting is if one follows the other launching into a rendezvous orbit.  Drama!

[SunlitZelkova]

Xinhua reports the launch was successful. No photos or time provided.

EDIT- Launch of the spaceplane.

Edited December 15, 2023 by SunlitZelkova

[tater]

 

[tater]

 

[Codraroll]

The excuse for dumping boosters on houses like this was usually "the civilians are evacuated in advance". But if they are close enough to the crash site to film the stage impacting the ground, would that even count as evacuation? I mean, the booster might just as well have come down where the person with the camera was standing. One would think that the booster could potentially come down anywhere within an area several kilometers across, and it'd be just as likely to be on top of the evacuees' heads as on their houses.

Fortunately, it seems they were at least aware it would be coming and had plenty of time to spot it as it fell - potentially enough to make like a tree and get out of there if it was headed for them.

[SunlitZelkova]

8 hours ago, Codraroll said:

The excuse for dumping boosters on houses like this was usually "the civilians are evacuated in advance".

I don't think this has ever been used as an excuse. The potential range of the booster impact is massive and thousands of people live in it. There is no way they could evacuate everyone every time.

I would guess the justification is similar to that of Roscosmos dropping Soyuz boosters on Kazakh and Russian farmland- "it's not very well populated". Compared to dropping it on Beijing, in theory this should have less of a chance of impacting property.

The odds just weren't in their favor this time.

[SunlitZelkova]

Commercial launchpad at Wenchang SLC has been completed.

https://x.com/raz_liu/status/1740544727932678301?s=46&t=Jd73T2beq0JLNtwTy1uR5A

[SunlitZelkova]

On 12/1/2023 at 1:01 AM, SunlitZelkova said:

Comrade @steve9728 seems to have signed off the forum permanently. He was an invaluable source of info on the Chinese space program, so it is very unfortunate.

In his stead, I will give a monthly update on what China launched and from where, and to where. This will be delayed for the next month (December) due to the New Year's Holiday, but I will try to do it on the first day of every next month.

For non-launches, that is, basic space program news, I will try to just post it when it happens, but the scope of my sources isn't as deep as Steve's so I can't guarantee I'll cover everything.

So, let's look at what China launched in November 2023!

1. November 3rd, 2023: A Long March 7A launched TJS-10 into GEO from Wenchang SLC. The TJS series of satellites are a cover name for a variety of military testbed satellites. It may be anything from a SIGINT sensor platform to a ballistic missile early warning sat prototype.
2. November 9th, 2023: A Long March 3B/E launched ChinaSat6E into GEO from Xichang SLC. It is a communications satellite for China Satellite Communications, a satcom provider.
3. November 16th, 2023: A Long March 2C with an Expedition-1S restartable upper stage launched Haiyang-3A into SSO from Jiuquan SLC. The Haiyang series of satellites are oceanic remote sensing sats operated by the Ministry of Natural Resources. The Haiyang-3 series is equipped with synthetic aperture radar. Letter A denotes it is the first in a series of identical SAR sats.
4. November 23rd, 2023: A Long March 2D with an Expedition-3 restartable upper stage launched three HJS-2 communications satellites into LEO from Xichang SLC.

By comparison, there were four American non-Starlink launches in November, with one being Starship IFT-2. Russia only conducted one launch in November. The only other launch from any other country was North Korea's Chollima-1 SLV putting the Malligyong-1 reconnaissance satellite into orbit.

December is over, so let's recap what China launched last month.

1. December 4th, 2023: A Long March 2C launched the Egyptian built, Chinese supported MisrSat-2, along with two other commercial satellites into SSO from Jiuquan. MisrSat-2 is a remote sensing satellite.
2. December 4th, 2023: The Ceres-1 commercial solid fuel LV launched two commercial satellites into SSO from Jiuquan. This marked a successful return to flight after a failed mission in September.
3. December 5th, 2023: A Jielong-3 solid fuel LV launched a communications satellite into LEO from a barge in the South China Sea.
4. December 8th, 2023: A Zhuque-2 commercial methane rocket launched three technology demonstrator satellites into SSO from Jiuquan.
5. December 10th, 2023: A Long March 2D launched three reconnaissance satellites into LEO from Xichang. This was the 500th launch of the Long March series.
6. December 14th, 2023: A Long March 2F launched China's experimental spaceplane into LEO from Jiuquan.
7. December 15th, 2023: A Long March 5 launched a reconnaissance satellite into GEO from Wenchang. This flight featured an extended payload fairing.
8. December 17th, 2023: A Hyperbola-1 launched the DEAR-1, a prototype of a future recoverable cargo spacecraft similar to Cargo Dragon, that perhaps might one day replace Tianzhou.
9. December 25th, 2023: A Kuaizhou-1A launched a meteorology satellite into SSO from Jiquan. The KZ-1A is based on the DF-21 medium range ballistic missile.
10. December 25th, 2023: A Long March 11H launched three technology demonstrator satellites into SSO from a barge in the South China Sea.
11. December 26th, 2023: A Long March 3B with a Yuanzheng-1 upper stage launched two Beidou satellites into MEO from Xichang.
12. December 27th, 2023: A Kuaizhou-1A launched a meteorology satellite into SSO from Jiuquan.
13. December 30th, 2023: A Long March 2C with a Yuangzheng-1S upper stage launched three communications satellite into LEO from Jiuquan.

In comparison, there were five non-Starlink American launches in December, and counting Starlink there were 11 American launches in total. Russia conducted four launches and South Korea conducted one.

China conducted 67 launches in total this year. The US conducted 116 launches in total, while Russia came in third with 19 launches. Everyone else had single digit numbers.

[tater]

 

[Minmus Taster]

5 hours ago, tater said:

 

I had no idea this thing existed until now. Looks like an overbuilt satellite launcher in kerbal.

[tater]

I'm sure the damage to the ship will buff out.

[tater]

 

 

[AckSed]

More on that super-deformed rocket. It's called the Gravity-1 and is a 3-and-a-half stage solid rocket constellation launcher with an optional kerelox kick stage.

It's capable of "5-6 tons" of lift, though I didn't catch any mention of the orbit. Their price to orbit is "$5000-$6000 dollars per kilogram" and they are targeting launches within 5 hours.

Honestly, this seems like a successful implementation of the same impulse (pun not intended) that led to Space Services Inc's Percheron turning into Conestoga. The difference here is they have a great deal more support, experience and in-production hardware to draw on.

Edited January 13 by AckSed

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:06 PM, SunlitZelkova said:

invaluable source of info on the Chinese space program

Not sure if related, but it either just became illegal (or they decided to step up enforcement) for any Chinese citizens to post pictures of military hardware on line.  Something about open source Intel. 

Space news (outside of official releases) may be covered by the same law 

 

Edit - not offered to explain Steve's absence - and yes, he is /was a valued member of the forum 

Edited January 14 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[SunlitZelkova]

8 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Not sure if related, but it either just became illegal (or they decided to step up enforcement) for any Chinese citizens to post pictures of military hardware on line.  Something about open source Intel. 

Space news (outside of official releases) may be covered by the same law 

 

Edit - not offered to explain Steve's absence - and yes, he is /was a valued member of the forum 

If you go look at his old posts his signature kinda implies he got fed up with the political arguments that broke out here, unfortunately.

[magnemoe]

On 1/13/2024 at 8:11 PM, AckSed said:

More on that super-deformed rocket. It's called the Gravity-1 and is a 3-and-a-half stage solid rocket constellation launcher with an optional kerelox kick stage.

It's capable of "5-6 tons" of lift, though I didn't catch any mention of the orbit. Their price to orbit is "$5000-$6000 dollars per kilogram" and they are targeting launches within 5 hours.

Honestly, this seems like a successful implementation of the same impulse (pun not intended) that led to Space Services Inc's Percheron turning into Conestoga. The difference here is they have a great deal more support, experience and in-production hardware to draw on.

Is the core stake lit during takeoff? Hard to see on the video but it looks like core has an vacuum nozzle and it should have enough trust to not be lit I think