Oddities with Reputation

[Starchaser]

So I've noticed something odd with my reputation lately. Like, within the last couple days.

A while back I set a status in the admin center (I forgot what they are called, it's almost midnight and I'm dead tired) that converts half my rep rewards to science. I did this when I had somewhere close to 600 rep. I know the actual rep rewards are logarithmic so you never actually reach 1000. The rep cost for this lowered my rep to 540. And it basically didn't move from there. I'd have it increase by 1 point now and again when I accomplished some of the 3 star missions.

However, over the last 2 days, without failing any missions, I've had it drop from 543, to 542 and now it's down to 541. I also don't decline missions I just let them expire.

Any idea why my rep is nosing down even though I haven't failed anything?

 

[linuxgurugamer]

Expiting missions affect rep, i think

[Starchaser]

Not that I've experienced before. Declining missions lowers rep. But letting them wither on the vine, not that I'm aware of.

Besides, between yesterday and today, I've completed missions with 10, 9 and 3 rep rewards (after halving from my strategy) which should have more than offset any expiring mission if there was a cost. I usually don't get offered a mission when I have 12 active, so I'd never have more than 1 or 2 expire

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

From what I understand, your reputation is constantly going down. Your completed missions actually increase it, while declining and especially failing missions decrease it even more than just idling. It sounds like maybe because you're trading half your rep, you're basically at a break-even point. And even losing a little bit. Think I'd turn down the strategy or kill it altogether.

[Streetwind]

On 5.11.2017 at 5:04 AM, Starchaser said:

Not that I've experienced before. Declining missions lowers rep. But letting them wither on the vine, not that I'm aware of.

A contract you have never seen expires: no reputation penalty.
A contract you have clicked on and read, but not accepted, expires: costs 1 reputation.
A contract is actively declined by you: costs (I believe) 3 reputation on standard settings. (May have changed since I last checked, I don't generally decline contracts)

[Draalo]

4 hours ago, Streetwind said:

A contract you have clicked on and read, but not accepted, expires: costs 1 reputation

Didnt knew that, thanks for the info

[Zeiss Ikon]

12 hours ago, Streetwind said:

A contract you have clicked on and read, but not accepted, expires: costs 1 reputation.

This makes no sense (says the guy who plays a game simulating spaceflight by little green men).  It reduces my reputation to learn the particulars of a contract, and then "never call back", but not if I never even look at what's required?  So, if I'm not likely to take a bunch of stupid "test X in flight at 20,000 to 35,000 m, between 60 and 90 m/s)" type impossible test contract, I just shouldn't look at any "test component in flight" contracts?  Not even if I'm sure some of them are entirely innocuous?

I'm starting to understand why people have been saying "contract system is broken" since before I bought the game...

[Streetwind]

8 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

It reduces my reputation to learn the particulars of a contract, and then "never call back", but not if I never even look at what's required?

Never calling back is pretty darn rude IMHO. If I discussed a business proposal with you, and then never hear back, you'd definitely lose reputation with me!  

(And by the way: there's a difference between "the game is broken" and "I personally don't agree with a decision the developers have made". Don't be one of the many people who have difficulties with that distinction. You can hold yourself to a higher standard than that!)

[Starchaser]

4 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Never calling back is pretty darn rude IMHO. If I discussed a business proposal with you, and then never hear back, you'd definitely lose reputation with me!  

Perhaps, except according to the person who posted the info..

 

On 11/6/2017 at 5:35 AM, Streetwind said:

A contract is actively declined by you: costs (I believe) 3 reputation on standard settings. (May have changed since I last checked, I don't generally decline contracts)

 

So you lose less rep by being rude, then by saying "Hey thanks but I'm not able to help you at this time"

also,  

 

Lose 1 rep for declining.

Also, a web search seems to be mixed on the thinking that allowing a contract to expire costs rep. Some sources say yes, some say no. The contract page on the wiki states no penalty for declining, so it's out of date. There isn't anything from Squad themselves I can find on an expiring contract rep penalty.

 

I think the answer about rep slowly decaying is correct. I almost never allow a contract I've read to expire, and I didn't in the time period I was discussing in my original post. However, since more and more of my contracts deal with minmus, my rate of completion has dropped, thus my incoming rate of rep is lower

Edit: I can let you know in 3h 40m of game time, as there's an atmospheric survey of kerbin contract I'd rather get a root canal than take that expires then. However, since I feel like playing Madden instead of KSP this morning, that won't be until tomorrow, real time.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Starchaser
more info

[Rodhern]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:11 AM, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

From what I understand, your reputation is constantly going down. ... Think I'd turn down the strategy or kill it altogether.

This is a quite usual scenario actually. The way the percentage settings of Strategies and the percentage settings in the difficulty settings interact, it is very easy to get in to a situation where every successful mission costs you some net-prestige.

[Zhetaan]

Not to throw it off, but is it then also the case that, being logarithmic, the amount of reputation you receive from doing missions increases as your total reputation goes down?

In other words, if you have no reputation-altering strategies active, then even though you will never reach 1000 reputation, it is also true that you can hold your reputation somewhere around a solid and consistent value; let's assume that it's 950 (I don't know for certain; but let's call it that).  Let's call that the maximum practically achievable reputation.  Once you reach that number, no mission will give you additional reputation no matter how awe-inspiring it is.  On the other hand, if you were to complete the same mission while your reputation was a lower value, say 100, you might get a lot of reputation for it.  I can only assume (but it would be good to check) that the amount of reputation earned scales for intermediate values.

Therefore, what I am suggesting is that it is possible that the strategy @Starchaser picked changed the algorithm to the effect of setting a new, lower maximum practically achievable reputation (let's say for example that the new value is 725); it will go down to 725, but it won't decrease forever because as it goes down, the available reputation to be earned from each mission will increase until there is equilibrium.

Of course, this kind of thing only makes sense if the reputation system works as I describe, which is a conceit on my part:  I'm really only guessing.  This is definitely the kind of question best answered by someone on staff, assuming that they can talk about the mechanics involved.  @bewing?  @JPLRepo?  Do either of you have anything you can add?

[bewing]

While I try to test as many aspects of the game as I can, there are some parts that I don't test much at all. Strategies is one. I also usually try to complete almost every contract the game gives me. I do know of one outstanding bug in Strategies, but it only affects the T3 admin building.

So what happens when you have a strategy going and you skip a bunch of contracts, or skip a whole bunch of days, or timewarp? I don't know. It's something I haven't tested hardly any, yet.

But yes, as you approach 1000 rep, it gets asymptotically harder to gain rep, and many times easier to lose rep. Same thing happens in reverse at -1000. As far as Decline penalties goes, that depends on your difficulty setting. I've never noticed rep declining over time (even when I play on hard difficulty). But I've never looked for it either. I admit that I am very surprised to hear that you can see asymptotic effects at 550 rep, though. I usually have no trouble pushing my rep into the mid-800s.

So sorry Starchaser, but you get to be the guinea pig and tell me how it actually works. If the reality of how it works sounds too horrid, then a feedback can be filed.

 

[Starchaser]

*Pauses while beating the Falcons in the 2022 NFC Divisional Playoff*

The day after I made this post, I installed a few contract pacts, I had been using the stock contracts before. You can tell, the one I screeenshotted is from ScanSAT. One of the packs I installed was K-Files.

The first K-File mission involves taking barometer readings at 2 heights. Not even out of the atmosphere. I launched Valentina straight up, took 1 reading, got to my apo, took the second, discovered that I should have broadcast the first result, or brought 2 barometers. When I recovered the ship I was awarded 15.8 rep, for a mission I only partially completed. I'm not sure that I'm a good guinea pig anymore.

I will report in on any rep change when that survey mission expires though.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Starchaser
I felt like it

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

9 minutes ago, bewing said:

While I try to test as many aspects of the game as I can, there are some parts that I don't test much at all. Strategies is one. I also usually try to complete almost every contract the game gives me. I do know of one outstanding bug in Strategies, but it only affects the T3 admin building.

So what happens when you have a strategy going and you skip a bunch of contracts, or skip a whole bunch of days, or timewarp? I don't know. It's something I haven't tested hardly any, yet.

But yes, as you approach 1000 rep, it gets asymptotically harder to gain rep, and many times easier to lose rep. Same thing happens in reverse at -1000. As far as Decline penalties goes, that depends on your difficulty setting. I've never noticed rep declining over time (even when I play on hard difficulty). But I've never looked for it either. I admit that I am very surprised to hear that you can see asymptotic effects at 550 rep, though. I usually have no trouble pushing my rep into the mid-800s.

So sorry Starchaser, but you get to be the guinea pig and tell me how it actually works. If the reality of how it works sounds too horrid, then a feedback can be filed.

 

If Rep didn't decline over time, and you never failed or declined a contract, you'd hit 1,000 pretty easily wouldn't you? He's simply trading too much Rep, I think. He has to constantly complete contracts just to break even. I think the only thing you're meant to trade that much of is Science. Once the tree is unlocked, I think we all trade it for cash. And as you said, getting to 800 Rep is pretty easy. Even 900 isn't difficult. But I couldn't get past about 910. Even though the contracts were great, it takes so long to complete them (they're all outer planet and multi-planet missions by that point), that I couldn't get any higher. And this was with 6 or 7 going at once. But you still have to warp a few months ahead to get to a maneuver or SOI change. So I couldn't advance. Finally, since I didn't really need money anymore, I started trading Science for Rep instead. I quickly rose to about 950 or so and got the "Ultimate Contract"; which is what I wanted all along. Once I complete it, I consider a career "finished".

I traded Rep (and cash) early on for Science, but I think it was around 25%. Now that I've played enough, I realize it wasn't necessary, but that doesn't mean it can't be helpful. I just wouldn't go 50%.

[bewing]

Oh, actually, I guess I do have one thing you might check. I did notice that Strategies seem to be getting implemented double (sometimes?). Maybe just in the T3 admin building, but it may be more than that.

So if you are supposedly converting "half" your rep to science -- that may actually be converting 100% of your rep.

 

[Starchaser]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

So if you are supposedly converting "half" your rep to science -- that may actually be converting 100% of your rep

Would I be getting 2x the science I'm supposed to from that? It would be easier to check that way, I think.

 

[bewing]

1 minute ago, Starchaser said:

Would I be getting 2x the science I'm supposed to from that? It would be easier to check that way, I think.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's double everything.

 

[Spricigo]

5 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

I think the only thing you're meant to trade that much of is Science. Once the tree is unlocked, I think we all trade it for cash.

 

YMMV. By the time I finish the tech I have a good stockpile of funds, so I trade science for reputation at first.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

54 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

 

YMMV. By the time I finish the tech I have a good stockpile of funds, so I trade science for reputation at first.

That would make just as much sense. I didn't need the money either. I just didn't know what to do with all the Science.

[Starchaser]

Well

I had 2051 science. and I completed a scan-sat contract. The reward window said my reward was 14(+2). Wait, this is easier...

 

As I understand this window, the 14 is what I should get in total, and the number in parenthesis (+2) is the slice that is from my strategies. However I went from 2051.0 to 2066.6 for a gain of 15.6

According to the strategy though, I get 1 science for every 2.3 rep the strategy consumes. So it appears I gained an extra 1.6, when 5 rep would have given me 2.1 or 2.2, depending on rounding vs truncating.

So it appears it is over-rewarding, Bewing, but not x2, exactly.

[bewing]

1 hour ago, Starchaser said:

Well

I had 2051 science. and I completed a scan-sat contract. 

 

As I understand this window, the 14 is what I should get in total, and the number in parenthesis (+2) is the slice that is from my strategies. However I went from 2051.0 to 2066.6 for a gain of 15.6

According to the strategy though, I get 1 science for every 2.3 rep the strategy consumes. So it appears I gained an extra 1.6, when 5 rep would have given me 2.1 or 2.2, depending on rounding vs truncating.

So it appears it is over-rewarding, Bewing, but not x2, exactly.

I think your KSP.log file contains an entry for the precise (untruncated) amounts of each "currency" that gets converted into the other whenever it does a strategy conversion. Best to look there.

[Starchaser]

[LOG 08:52:19.639] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:52:19.640] Awarding 66755 funds to player for contract completion
[LOG 08:52:19.640] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:52:19.641] Awarding 6 reputation to player for contract completion
[LOG 08:52:19.641] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 3 Reputation taken, yields 1.30411 Science
[LOG 08:52:19.642] Added 3.393208 (6) reputation: 'ContractReward'.
[LOG 08:52:19.645] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 3 Reputation taken, yields 1.30411 Science

OG 08:53:01.767] FF: creating new hall of fame browser
[LOG 08:53:01.775] FF: hall of fame browser opened
[LOG 08:53:01.776] FF: hall of fame refreshed
[LOG 08:54:07.705] [UIMasterController]: ShowUI
[LOG 08:54:07.705] Game Paused!
[LOG 08:59:07.814] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.814] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.815] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.815] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.816] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.816] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.817] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.817] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 08:59:07.818] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 1 Reputation taken, yields 0.4347032 Science
[LOG 08:59:27.780] [UIMasterController]: ShowUI
[LOG 08:59:27.781] Game Unpaused!

 

[LOG 09:22:45.618] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 09:22:45.619] Awarding 25000 funds to player for contract completion
[LOG 09:22:45.620] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 09:22:45.620] Awarding 12 science to player for contract completion
[LOG 09:22:45.621] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 0 Reputation taken, yields 0 Science
[LOG 09:22:45.621] Awarding 10 reputation to player for contract completion
[LOG 09:22:45.622] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 5 Reputation taken, yields 2.173516 Science
[LOG 09:22:45.639] Added 5.647494 (10) reputation: 'ContractReward'.
[LOG 09:22:45.640] [CurrencyConverter for Unpaid Research Program]: 5 Reputation taken, yields 2.173516 Science

 

So....yeah

The first and last instance explain the lack of progression.

The middle one explains why I started losing rep a few days ago when I installed Final Frontier

Heh. Should I bug report the middle log piece to Final Frontier?

And if so, where would I put it?

 

[bewing]

Huh! So each strategy is actually being run twice on stock contracts?  Didn't know that!

[Starchaser]

I'll have to rescind that strategy and enact a 25%....I'll get worse returns than the 50%, but it should only be a couple tenths.