Low tech

[DrPastah]

I don't have the 90 tech levels yet. What can you do when you already orbited the mun and kerbin and performed all the experiments?

 

I think it's next to impossible for me to land on the mun with my current tech.

Should I use probes to go far away and transmit data back?

Worst of all, I don't have command modules that can fit all 3 kerbals yet.

Edited November 26, 2017 by DrPastah

[klesh]

5 minutes ago, DrPastah said:

I don't have the 90 tech levels yet. What can you do when you already orbited the mun and kerbin and performed all the experiments?

 

Visit all the biomes on Kerbin.  Orbit and land at Minmus; visit all the biomes there as well.  Send probes out for flyby science to planets as their launch windows open.  At the very least get some sun orbit science.  You can also go about leveling up your crew.

You can absolutely land on the Mun with that tech, btw!

[DrPastah]

1 minute ago, klesh said:

 

Visit all the biomes on Kerbin.  Orbit and land at Minmus; visit all the biomes there as well.  Send probes out for flyby science to planets as their launch windows open.  At the very least get some sun orbit science.  You can also go about leveling up your crew.

You can absolutely land on the Mun with that tech, btw!

It's more the fact that FAR will hate my rocket for having enormous drag.

[klesh]

Just now, DrPastah said:

It's more the fact that FAR will hate my rocket for having enormous drag.

 

 

Ahh, you neglected to include that initially.  I have no idea then, don't use that mod.

[DrPastah]

6 minutes ago, klesh said:

 

Visit all the biomes on Kerbin.  Orbit and land at Minmus; visit all the biomes there as well.  Send probes out for flyby science to planets as their launch windows open.  At the very least get some sun orbit science.  You can also go about leveling up your crew.

You can absolutely land on the Mun with that tech, btw!

So which one do you recommend first to do? I found that doing biomes on Kerbin took a lot of time and gave very little science like maybe 10 in total. Should I do Minmus, Kerbol, or what? I'm also using RemoteTech, so I'm not sure if my probes will stay connected.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

There is enough science between the Mun and Minmus to unlock the entire tree. You can definitely get to the Mun with that tech level stock. No clue about FAR.

As far as easy targets, Minmus as mentioned above, Solar orbit is easy too; just leave Kerbin SOI and come right back.

If you can orbit Mun, you can orbit Minmus, about the same Dv, you just need to match inclination first.

[DrPastah]

The worst part about my tech is that I don't have RCS where it's too hard to land straight down and safely.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

7 minutes ago, DrPastah said:

The worst part about my tech is that I don't have RCS where it's too hard to land straight down and safely.

Nah, you don't need it.

Just set SAS to hold retrograde and concentrate on running the throttle. It's self-correcting; it'll bring you down for a flat landing.

Finding a flat spot to land however, is on you. Just go radial out if you need more time/height.

[Bornholio]

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Cheat_sheet

Minumus and Minmus landing (less dv than Mun).  Also Ike/Duna Flyby is just a tad more dv than minmus orbital.  A Gilly/Eve flyby is slightly less and almost too easy to land.  Then you should be in range of Mun Landing and low orbit/aerbraking duna/eve.

[GoSlash27]

I Agree with Bornholio. Get all the science from low & high Kerbin, then high & low Mun, then high and low Minmus, and all the Minmus biomes.

I can pull that off with full Caveman limitations, so no reason you can't do it.

Best,
-Slashy

[bewing]

43 minutes ago, DrPastah said:

So which one do you recommend first to do? I found that doing biomes on Kerbin took a lot of time and gave very little science like maybe 10 in total. Should I do Minmus, Kerbol, or what? I'm also using RemoteTech, so I'm not sure if my probes will stay connected.

Yes, doing the Kerbin biomes takes some time -- maybe an hour or two of playtime. But just driving around the KSC campus and getting every reading from all the active mini-biomes there can pick you up over 500 science points. Flying to the north polar lake can pick you up another 400. Each Kerbin biome may not get you much, but there are up to 40 of them that are easily accessible and fairly concentrated -- and 500 science points can easily get you enough tech to get to Duna or Gilly, if you want.

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

All good advice above, @DrPastah. My personal recommendation would be Minmus. It costs a bit more for the transfer, but the rewards are worth the trip. Maneuvers there cost nothing compared to Mun. And not only is it an easy free-return home, but the low-g makes it a great place to practice your landing skills. If you EVA and grab the data on the way down, you can run experiments high and low, then again on the surface (remembering to grab the data again, because there's a good chance the equipment won't survive Kerbin's atmosphere on a free-return). And I don't know what your KSC looks like, but I try to upgrade the R&D building as soon as possible so I can collect soil samples; which are pure gold. Even just hitting a single biome can make your trip a huge success.

[Plusck]

2 hours ago, DrPastah said:

I think it's next to impossible for me to land on the mun with my current tech.

That lander looks like it is using a Reliant. KER tells you it has a minimum TWR of 1.5 on Kerbin, meaning a TWR of about 10 on the Mun.

You definitely don't need so much power. A single Terrier instead of the Reliant, half the fuel, landing legs without girders (the micro landing legs are just the right size to hold a Terrier above the ground)... all of those things will get you the same dv (which is fine for landing once and returning to Kerbin afterwards).

Also, when you're getting the science tree unlocked, you don't necessarily need to take all of the science experiments with you every time. I often leave the materials bay behind on early missions. Sure, it's a good source of science but sometimes its size makes it more trouble than it's worth.

Finally, I haven't tried using FAR, but in stock you definitely don't need drogue chutes if the only thing re-entering is a command pod. The single top-mounted mk16 chute is more than enough. And I suspect the chutes are a big reason why your lander is so unbalanced and therefore needing reaction wheels. Balance the craft so that KER's Torque reading is 0.00, and you will have no need for added reaction wheels for that size of craft.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Plusck

[Rocket In My Pocket]

3 hours ago, Plusck said:

That lander looks like it is using a Reliant. KER tells you it has a minimum TWR of 1.5 on Kerbin, meaning a TWR of about 10 on the Mun.

You definitely don't need so much power. A single Terrier instead of the Reliant, half the fuel, landing legs without girders (the micro landing legs are just the right size to hold a Terrier above the ground)... all of those things will get you the same dv (which is fine for landing once and returning to Kerbin afterwards).

Also, when you're getting the science tree unlocked, you don't necessarily need to take all of the science experiments with you every time. I often leave the materials bay behind on early missions. Sure, it's a good source of science but sometimes its size makes it more trouble than it's worth.

Terrier? Heck, two Sparks will do it.

Lands on Mun, returns Kerbal to Kerbin with science, has all basic science experiments. (Materials bay, Goo pod, Thermometer, Barometer.) As minimal as I could bring myself to build really, but I'm sure it could be done with less.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Reactordrone]

EVA reports above all of the Mun's biomes (and Minmus if you like) should get you plenty of science without having to land.

[Plusck]

2 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

...

Lands on Mun, returns Kerbal to Kerbin with science, has all basic science experiments. (Materials bay, Goo pod, Thermometer, Barometer.) As minimal as I could bring myself to build really, but I'm sure it could be done with less.

Neat. I know that doing an Apollo-style lander (leaving all the heavy bits you no longer need behind) is a smart choice, but only ever acted on it when it becomes a necessity to avoid spiralling costs, such as for manned base contracts (on Duna, Laythe and Tylo in particular) or for Eve because there is little choice.

So I've simply never really considered the possiblity for my early Mun landings.

[GoSlash27]

33 minutes ago, Plusck said:

Neat. I know that doing an Apollo-style lander (leaving all the heavy bits you no longer need behind) is a smart choice, but only ever acted on it when it becomes a necessity to avoid spiralling costs, such as for manned base contracts (on Duna, Laythe and Tylo in particular) or for Eve because there is little choice.

So I've simply never really considered the possiblity for my early Mun landings.

Plusck,

 It's not actually beneficial for Mun landings. There's not enough DV in the evolution to warrant it, so 2- stagers wind up heavier than doing it all in one stage.

Best,
-Slashy

[Pand5461]

@DrPastah what's your difficulty level? On Normal, there is more than enough science to unlock things.

EVA reports low above Kerbin and Mun are biome-specific, so can give quite a bit of science with enough grind. Other experiments on the ground, in low atmo, in high atmo, low and high in space. Just don't forget to return experiments (note: kerbals can gather experimental data from equipment and store them in capsule for return) and not transmit them.

The most important node for you now is the one that gives advanced probe cores. With that, you can send scientist to the Mun who can reset goo canister and materials bay.

Your lander is certainly massively overdesigned. Look at the @Rocket In My Pocket's design, change lower Spark to a Terrier and remove the upper engine (you are still going to need the tank from the upper stage though).

As for RemoteTech, you should be good if you have a relay network around Kerbin and not going to try back side of the Mun landing.

4 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Terrier? Heck, two Sparks will do it.

They certainly will. It's just they aren't unlocked yet - look at the pic in the OP.

[DrPastah]

Thanks for all the help. I managed to get enough science for now. Now I need money hahahah.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

10 hours ago, Pand5461 said:

They certainly will. It's just they aren't unlocked yet - look at the pic in the OP.

I was just making conversation with @Plusck and/or supporting his point about smaller being better in general; not really providing a solution to the OP's specific issue, as it seems others have that covered pretty well.

11 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

Plusck,

 It's not actually beneficial for Mun landings. There's not enough DV in the evolution to warrant it, so 2- stagers wind up heavier than doing it all in one stage.

Best,
-Slashy

You are saying that removing the small decoupler/one spark and taking all that extra stuff back to Kerbin on one stage would be better? I find that hard to believe, but I'll try it out.

[GoSlash27]

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

You are saying that removing the small decoupler/one spark and taking all that extra stuff back to Kerbin on one stage would be better?

Rocket in my pocket,

Not quite. I'm saying that two- staging from LMO to the surface and back to LMO isn't worth it. A single stage lander winds up being lighter.

If you extend the trip to Kerbin, the results may vary.

Best,
-Slashy

[Rocket In My Pocket]

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Rocket in my pocket,

Not quite. I'm saying that two- staging from LMO to the surface and back to LMO isn't worth it. A single stage lander winds up being lighter.

If you extend the trip to Kerbin, the results may vary.

Best,
-Slashy

Ahh, true "Apollo style" then?

Yes, I agree it's not worth it, direct return from the surface is much more efficient.

I'm assuming they did it that way in real life for other reasons like at least saving 1 of the 3 Astronauts in the event the lander failed?

[Spricigo]

13 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Terrier? Heck, two Sparks will do it.

Which unfortunately was not unlocked for the OP.

 

14 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

As minimal as I could bring myself to build really, but I'm sure it could be done with less.

My take:

Stage 0(From the surface of the Mun Back to Kerbin surface): MK16 parachute, HECS Probecore, communotron 16, MK1 command pod (drained MP), 2x OX-STAT Photovoltaic Panels, TR-2V decoupler, ROUND-8 Toroidal fuel tank, Oscar-B fuel tank*, 2x z100 batteries, 2x Spider engine. About 1.6t, 1050m/s , 1.4 local TWR.

Stage 1(From Mun intercept to Mun surface): TR-2v decoupler, FL-t200 fuel tank, science jr, mystery goo, thermometer, barometer, 4x micro landing struts and a spark (if you want, throw in some Octagonal struts, for 20funds and 1kg each, and make the landing struts base wider ). +1,6t, 1150m/s, 3.9 local TWR.

Stage 2(From kerbin high atmosphere to Mun intercept):TR-18A decoupler, FL-t400 fuel tank, terrier engine. +5.2t, 2150m/s, 0.7 TWR

Stage 3(from lauchpad to kerbin high atmosphere): TR-18A decoupler, 2xFL-t800 fuel tank, fl-t200 fuel tank, Reliant engine, 4xsmall nosecones, 4xspark engine, 4x wing connector type E. +12t, 1750m/s, 1.3 TWR

I'd say it's more mid-tech, more expensive and more complex than it need to be, without much of a safety margin, but still a good example of how little(in terms of mass/size) is necessary for a Mun landing mission.  Mind you,  I designed it in a spreadsheet,  it may perform not so well in KSP (maybe I did some stupid mistake along the way).

14 hours ago, DrPastah said:

Thanks for all the help. I managed to get enough science for now. Now I need money hahahah.

At that point  of career I tend to rely in satellites and rescue missions for funds. Tourists and stations can also pay pretty well. If you need help with those kind of contracts, the links are shameless self-promotion for some of my crafts on kerbalX.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

8 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

Which unfortunately was not unlocked for the OP.

I take it you missed the post above where we discussed that? Lol.

10 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

My take:

A picture says a thousand words...but that makes me think; I wonder if a minimal Mun lander challenge would be fun?

[Spricigo]

3 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

a)I take it you missed the post above where we discussed that? Lol.

b)A picture says a thousand words...c)but that makes me think; I wonder if a minimal Mun lander challenge would be fun?

a)yes, reading is too difficult.

b)Unfortunately not available. Not built in game, just calculated deltaV and TWR of the stages with a spreadsheet. (I guess a picture of the spreadsheet will not tell much   OTOH I think that is less than 1000 words, something like 200-300 maybe. )

c)IMO yes. Probably done before but I don't think that is a problem. There is also a few different ways to setup a challenge like that (limit or not tech, limit or not cost...).