Star Wars Episode VIII (8) the Last Jedi Discussion

[Canopus]

So i‘m not the biggest fan of the Movie but i actually thought what they did with Luke was one of the more interesting decisions. I also really enjoined that they killed of Snoke the way they did. The luxury Casino Planet was pretty stupid and the new character that follows Finn around, i already forgot her name, felt very unnecessary. The painfully slow bombers where rage inducing though, even for Star Wars. 

What i wish they would have done is the Reversal of Kylo Ren and Rey.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Canopus

[kerbiloid]

3 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Ok fair enough but then Rey needs NO TRAINING? 

Worship the Goddess

[KSK]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Worship the Goddess

"The Force requires neither obedience nor obeisance. The Force simply is." 

Thinking a bit more about @Cheif Operations Director's notion of strength in the Force coming from training, isn't that partly the point of Episode VIII? The Jedi failed because ultimately they became too attached to ritual (expressed through training and tightly prescribed ways of using the Force) rather than faith (expressed as an instinctive connection to the Force). So strength in the Force became seen as an ability to do certain things in the correct way and to do them well in that way. But ultimately that isn't true strength in the Force of the kind that Rey has, Anakin had and "Broom Boy" seen in the final minutes of the film presumably has.

Moreover, for the Jedi, their rituals and their training became their faith. They lost their central fire; the core of what they once were. And once the core died, the hollow shell that the Jedi Order became, was swept away. More importantly, it cannot be rebuilt on the same empty, prescriptive rituals. In the end, Luke realised this, hence his statement that the Jedi must end and his disdain for the arrogant idea that the Jedi are the sole guardians of the Light side. 

Not that any of the above is particularly original thinking I'm sure.

Edited December 25, 2017 by KSK

[cubinator]

Speaking of "Broom Boy"...

I really like that inclusion. It shows a new generation of people all around the galaxy inspired by the Rebellion and the Force - new energy for the saga. 

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, KSK said:

Jedi failed because ultimately they became too attached to ritual (expressed through training and tightly prescribed ways of using the Force) rather than faith (expressed as an instinctive connection to the Force). 

What was unavoidable due to their organization growth.
Moar contenders per post → moar adepts for personal flocks → recruitting everybody who just heard about the force. Mages have been eaten by Clirics.
Here we can see a nice example of a system self-regulation, when a random mystic disturbance (the cheaters who could into Force) was successfully neutralized by the dialectical materialism.

6 hours ago, cubinator said:

Speaking of "Broom Boy"...

I really like that inclusion. It shows a new generation of people all around the galaxy inspired by the Rebellion and the Force - new energy for the saga. 

Yes! The broom-boy will grow, graduate from the Imperial Fleet Academy, and fight against them as an Imperial Dreadnought commander.

[Cheif Operations Director]

9 hours ago, KSK said:

"The Force requires neither obedience nor obeisance. The Force simply is." 

Thinking a bit more about @Cheif Operations Director's notion of strength in the Force coming from training, isn't that partly the point of Episode VIII? The Jedi failed because ultimately they became too attached to ritual (expressed through training and tightly prescribed ways of using the Force) rather than faith (expressed as an instinctive connection to the Force). So strength in the Force became seen as an ability to do certain things in the correct way and to do them well in that way. But ultimately that isn't true strength in the Force of the kind that Rey has, Anakin had and "Broom Boy" seen in the final minutes of the film presumably has.

Moreover, for the Jedi, their rituals and their training became their faith. They lost their central fire; the core of what they once were. And once the core died, the hollow shell that the Jedi Order became, was swept away. More importantly, it cannot be rebuilt on the same empty, prescriptive rituals. In the end, Luke realised this, hence his statement that the Jedi must end and his disdain for the arrogant idea that the Jedi are the sole guardians of the Light side. 

Not that any of the above is particularly original thinking I'm sure.

Yes I get that but that is like asking a Kindergardener to do Geometry (Like real not the 2nd garden stuff) Even if he had a I.Q. Of 300 He would need to think about it for a LONG TIME or fair to complete it. He just simply would know HOW to do it. It isn't that you don't have potential it's that he just isn't their yet. For example Luke, Sidious, Vader, Yoda, Mace, Snoke, Kit Fisto, Shak Ti, Ashoka Tano, Bendu, Ezra, Kanan, Library Lady, and many more all needed someone to teach them.

In Star Wars the Clone Wars (I'll refere to it as ("SWCW")

We are shown Force Children can levitate their toys...

Fine that's great and all but they are NOT Standing Up to a Sith or Jedi. What's so special about Rey that She can do all this with two lessons from an actual force weilder. I'm just going to call Kylo Ren a Sith at this point. 

And why did Luke die again he might now have won in a straight duel but he won Mentally, Using he force, and with his lightsaber not just with a laser sword. That isn't all their is too being a Jedi or Sith. 

I feel Disney is missing the point of Star Wars.

The Jedi have always been the good guys and now their EQUAL to the Sith? 

The Sith are Murders and the Jedi are "Peacekeepers" 

I recognize bot ha done good and bad but in the end the VALUES of them are Murder and Peace respectively. 

I understand the interpretation of the Jedi Prophecy about bringing balence to the force being one Sith and one Jedi /or two Sith and two Jedi etc. If equal and getting along. 

This whole use evil and good makes no sense. 

The Jedi are wrong and so are the Sith BUT Their siding of light and dark are representative. 

If their called Kedi and Kith it doesn't matter it's the same battle!

My point is short is that Both Sides shouldn't be joining together, nor should Rey be this powerful.

The Force Weilder needs to learn Patience even the Sith understand that, just not in the same way. All Force Weilders until now have only gotten more powerful with time (generally speaking) 

Luke seems less powerful and Rey seems like she is way to powerful as stated. She maby can twirl a lightsaber but again the force is "the energy in all living things" and as Kanan said "she needs to open her minds to it" (not a direct quote) in reference to Sabine Wren. So if someone like Sabine needs to open here mind why doesn't Rey. What's so special about Rey. She (Rey) Has no Prophecy she is just some force sensitive child. So why doesn't she need training like everyone else. Oh right because of RAW STRENGHT! 

Or should I say Disney story STRENGHT and Money!

 

[KSK]

Luke's death ties in well with Obi-Wan's 'strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine' line from Episode IV. More generally, Luke is now a legend to that new generation of Force users. He's the Last Jedi that saved the Rebellion through nothing but pure mastery of the Force. And because he's dead, he'll always be remembered for his strengths, his triumphs and what he was perceived to stand for. The weaknesses and failures will be conveniently forgotten. In other words Luke is a martyr, dying for what he believed in and all the more inspirational for it.

As for the Jedi and the Sith. Bear in mind that we've only ever seen the Jedi from their own point of view and very rarely from anybody else's. It's slightly trite but one person's Freedom Fighter is another person's Terrorist.  We don't ever find out how the Jedi came to be guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations, or what their version of peace and justice really entailed. Justice is another notoriously slippery concept. Even on Earth, concepts of justice vary quite widely - imagine extrapolating that to a Galaxy of thousands of star systems and hundreds of sentient species. Now I'm quite prepared to believe that the Jedi ideals didn't include outright rule by fear and blowing up planets with super-weapons but at the end of the day, being the arbiters of peace and justice in the Galaxy does mean that you're imposing your will on the Galaxy.  Likewise we only see the Sith in one light and we only really see one extreme example of the Sith. 

As Obi-Wan said, the truths we cling to depend very much on our point of view.

So, yes, the films present the Jedi as the Good Guys and the Sith as the Bad Guys but you don't have to think about that for very long to see that it's a simplistic generalisation at best, presented from one point of view.   Consider the Sith Code for example:

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain Strength.
Through Strength I gain Power.
Through Power I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.

Now those middle three lines are certainly consistent with the Sith ethos that we see in the films - personal power at the expense of everybody else. It's by no means the only one though. Through Passion, I gain Strength. This could equally well apply to the Rebel Alliance. They have their cause to fight for and it gives them strength. Through Strength I gain Power. A bit of a truism - and power to do what? Power doesn't necessarily mean power over others. It could be the power to inspire (as Luke became). It could be power over ignorance and fear. Through Power, I gain Victory - again victory doesn't have to be the victory of the conquering army.

And the last lines are really ambiguous. They imply an overcoming of personal limitations but without knowing what those limitations are or what a person does once they've overcome their limitations, it's hard to see those lines as unambiguously good or evil. In fact you could you could apply almost of all of that Code to Luke's personal journey in the Original Trilogy and latterly in Episode VIII. He certainly overcame his limitations as a Force user and in the end the Force did free him, as it did to Yoda, Qui-Gonn, Anakin and Obi-Wan. Luminous beings were they - not crude matter.

Now look at the Jedi Code

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

I see a couple of interesting points straightaway. The Sith Code is very personal - it's all about the individual. The Jedi code is not - its an absolutist statement of the way things are. Which is strange because according to Obi-Wan "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."  Not only that but their absolutist code is consistent with my earlier comment about the Jedi imposing their will on the Galaxy.  It's also not too difficult to put a sinister interpretation on the Jedi Code in the same way that you can put a sympathetic intepretation on the Sith Code. The peace of the Jedi is the peace of a droid army - emotionless, ruled by passionless logic, with every individual in their correct place.

TL: DR,  I think any characterisation of Jedi values as Peace and the Sith values as Murder, is a bit simplistic.  

 

Edit: Also most of this is just me thinking aloud. Its been quite interesting  and it was your comment ( @Cheif Operations Director) that got me started on it. So thanks for that!

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

the films present the Jedi as the Good Guys

Especially Qui-Gon Jinn. Cheater in games, liar in deals, bying a valuable unit - Anakin, but not his mother (who needs her? she'd just disturb Anakin from the training).

The Jedi reputation on Tatooine is also excelent: nobody desires to lend him money.
Even Lannisters from time to time motivate somebody to do something without a penny in hands, just because "A Lannister always pays his debts". While a Jedi probably doesn't, he always lives in harmony with his conscience.
And notice: this Jedi reputation had appeared on Tatooine way before Qui-Gon appeared there.

Or the famous conversation in s01e04 between the young Luke and o.b.1 about the "young jedi Darth Vader who betrayed us".
Why not let Luke to decide what is truth from his own point of view, telling him full story? Why disturb the universal harmony with a lie?

The same episode, the scene with Leia's hologram.
"I need your help, Luke. SHE needs your help!" or so.
It's very honest - to manipulate a naive country boy in such way, playing on his most base, animal instincts. The light is so light... Sith lords are nervously weeping in the corner.

Quote

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no passion, there is serenity.

a little bit contradicts

Quote

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

 

Because getting a knowledge is a hard and unpleasant work which has nothing common with "peace" and "serenity", it's an antonym for them.
Unless Jedi mean not "knowledge" as a sum of information about the world, but some mystic "Knowledge" which they get (or they think they get) thanks to the Force.
I.e. while the Sith way complies better with science, the Jedi way is a dogma, Jedi way is not falsifiable.

1 hour ago, KSK said:

Through Power I gain Victory.

A little silly view. Victory over whom? Not "victory" but "achievement", "step of progression".
Why do we need to teach the Siths, was it too hard to understand this themselves?
(Also maybe just a bad translation from the FarGalaxian).

"Siths vs Jedis" = "Mages vs Clirics", not "Darkness vs Light".

Edited December 26, 2017 by kerbiloid

[KSK]

43 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

A little silly view. Victory over whom? Not "victory" but "achievement", "step of progression".

Precisely. As I said, 'victory' does not need to be a the victory of the conquering army.

[Superfluous J]

My big problem with the movie that just keeps coming back to haunt me is when they were racing straight forward at the big cannon on those salt-flat-kinda-pod-racer type ships, and were totally getting blown to bits so they decided to give up. Everybody gives up except Finn, who somehow then drives in a totally straight line directly at the gun for what appears to be 5 minutes WITHOUT BEING SHOT AT ONE SINGLE TIME.

And then, even though he's going at top speed and never let up, Rose - who turned around to go back to base - somehow catches up to him and is able to intercept him at the last second.

And the same thing (without the intervening) happened to her sister in the bomber at the start of the movie. It's like the Empire First Order has a blind spot when there's only one of any given ship type left on the battlefield. "Sir. There's only one bomber left. We should probably move on to other things now."

[kerbiloid]

Just two words more.
Starting Anakin's jedi career by a (forced) betrayal (of his mother), the jedi then outrage: what a shame, he has betrayed us.
They just got back what they did.

1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

It's like the Empire First Order has a blind spot when there's only one of any given ship type left on the battlefield.

They are evil characters and can neither just do something straight, nor just kill the last hero without a five minutes monologue.
In a Bollywood remake they would be dancing during this scene.

Edited December 26, 2017 by kerbiloid

[PakledHostage]

54 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

They are evil characters and can neither just do something straight, nor just kill the last hero without a five minutes monologue. In a Bollywood remake they would be dancing during this scene.

Exactly. It is Star Wars. And Disney. To borrow a line from another Disney movie: Let it go.

[Cheif Operations Director]

11 hours ago, KSK said:

Luke's death ties in well with Obi-Wan's 'strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine' line from Episode IV. More generally, Luke is now a legend to that new generation of Force users. He's the Last Jedi that saved the Rebellion through nothing but pure mastery of the Force. And because he's dead, he'll always be remembered for his strengths, his triumphs and what he was perceived to stand for. The weaknesses and failures will be conveniently forgotten. In other words Luke is a martyr, dying for what he believed in and all the more inspirational for it.

As for the Jedi and the Sith. Bear in mind that we've only ever seen the Jedi from their own point of view and very rarely from anybody else's. It's slightly trite but one person's Freedom Fighter is another person's Terrorist.  We don't ever find out how the Jedi came to be guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations, or what their version of peace and justice really entailed. Justice is another notoriously slippery concept. Even on Earth, concepts of justice vary quite widely - imagine extrapolating that to a Galaxy of thousands of star systems and hundreds of sentient species. Now I'm quite prepared to believe that the Jedi ideals didn't include outright rule by fear and blowing up planets with super-weapons but at the end of the day, being the arbiters of peace and justice in the Galaxy does mean that you're imposing your will on the Galaxy.  Likewise we only see the Sith in one light and we only really see one extreme example of the Sith. 

As Obi-Wan said, the truths we cling to depend very much on our point of view.

So, yes, the films present the Jedi as the Good Guys and the Sith as the Bad Guys but you don't have to think about that for very long to see that it's a simplistic generalisation at best, presented from one point of view.   Consider the Sith Code for example:

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain Strength.
Through Strength I gain Power.
Through Power I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.

Now those middle three lines are certainly consistent with the Sith ethos that we see in the films - personal power at the expense of everybody else. It's by no means the only one though. Through Passion, I gain Strength. This could equally well apply to the Rebel Alliance. They have their cause to fight for and it gives them strength. Through Strength I gain Power. A bit of a truism - and power to do what? Power doesn't necessarily mean power over others. It could be the power to inspire (as Luke became). It could be power over ignorance and fear. Through Power, I gain Victory - again victory doesn't have to be the victory of the conquering army.

And the last lines are really ambiguous. They imply an overcoming of personal limitations but without knowing what those limitations are or what a person does once they've overcome their limitations, it's hard to see those lines as unambiguously good or evil. In fact you could you could apply almost of all of that Code to Luke's personal journey in the Original Trilogy and latterly in Episode VIII. He certainly overcame his limitations as a Force user and in the end the Force did free him, as it did to Yoda, Qui-Gonn, Anakin and Obi-Wan. Luminous beings were they - not crude matter.

Now look at the Jedi Code

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

I see a couple of interesting points straightaway. The Sith Code is very personal - it's all about the individual. The Jedi code is not - its an absolutist statement of the way things are. Which is strange because according to Obi-Wan "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."  Not only that but their absolutist code is consistent with my earlier comment about the Jedi imposing their will on the Galaxy.  It's also not too difficult to put a sinister interpretation on the Jedi Code in the same way that you can put a sympathetic intepretation on the Sith Code. The peace of the Jedi is the peace of a droid army - emotionless, ruled by passionless logic, with every individual in their correct place.

TL: DR,  I think any characterisation of Jedi values as Peace and the Sith values as Murder, is a bit simplistic.  

 

Edit: Also most of this is just me thinking aloud. Its been quite interesting  and it was your comment ( @Cheif Operations Director) that got me started on it. So thanks for that!

 

 

 

Ok again but why did Luke want to become a Jedi and not a Sith. 

Let me put it too you this way would you rather have Anakin (Before evil) or Darth Sidious as a freind? 

Also again Why does Rey need no training.

It isn't a matter of anything but discipline and she never HAS to learn any, light or dark. Would wouldn't be better at a fight a Black Belt who just got to being a black belt or one who has been disciplined for years. Even if their exactly the same in STRENGHT. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Cheif Operations Director

[tater]

Finally saw it.

It was OK, better than TFA, but that's a pretty low bar, TFA was incredibly weak, IMHO.

It's not worth dwelling to much on anything in the SW franchise, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. My personal plot peeve was the jump to hyperspace weapon they just created. Seems like every small craft would be better used as a missile (it's not like they don't have droids that could be reduced in sentience to steer them). Needs to be massive? Throw a hyperdrive on a small asteroid.

Anyway, it was OK. Nothing about it was terribly memorable, and nothing about it had me excited to see what happened next. I was interested, but not really immersed.

[DAL59]

1 hour ago, tater said:

e jump to hyperspace weapon they just created. Seems like every small craft would be better used as a missile

and every clones armor should be made of the same stuff as Phasma's...

seriously, whats the point of the white armor if it can't stop the laser bolts?

12 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

"Sir. There's only one bomber left. We should probably move on to other things now."

There's only 1 escape pod.  Must be just a malfunction.

Edited December 27, 2017 by DAL59

[Superfluous J]

21 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

seriously, whats the point of the white armor if it can't stop the laser bolts?

How else will the good guys sneak around?

21 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

There's only 1 escape pod.  Must be just a malfunction.

 

[ProtoJeb21]

19 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Yes I get that but that is like asking a Kindergardener to do Geometry (Like real not the 2nd garden stuff) Even if he had a I.Q. Of 300 He would need to think about it for a LONG TIME or fair to complete it. He just simply would know HOW to do it. It isn't that you don't have potential it's that he just isn't their yet. For example Luke, Sidious, Vader, Yoda, Mace, Snoke, Kit Fisto, Shak Ti, Ashoka Tano, Bendu, Ezra, Kanan, Library Lady, and many more all needed someone to teach them.

In Star Wars the Clone Wars (I'll refere to it as ("SWCW")

We are shown Force Children can levitate their toys...

Fine that's great and all but they are NOT Standing Up to a Sith or Jedi. What's so special about Rey that She can do all this with two lessons from an actual force weilder. I'm just going to call Kylo Ren a Sith at this point. 

And why did Luke die again he might now have won in a straight duel but he won Mentally, Using he force, and with his lightsaber not just with a laser sword. That isn't all their is too being a Jedi or Sith. 

I feel Disney is missing the point of Star Wars.

The Jedi have always been the good guys and now their EQUAL to the Sith? 

The Sith are Murders and the Jedi are "Peacekeepers" 

I recognize bot ha done good and bad but in the end the VALUES of them are Murder and Peace respectively. 

I understand the interpretation of the Jedi Prophecy about bringing balence to the force being one Sith and one Jedi /or two Sith and two Jedi etc. If equal and getting along. 

This whole use evil and good makes no sense. 

The Jedi are wrong and so are the Sith BUT Their siding of light and dark are representative. 

If their called Kedi and Kith it doesn't matter it's the same battle!

My point is short is that Both Sides shouldn't be joining together, nor should Rey be this powerful.

The Force Weilder needs to learn Patience even the Sith understand that, just not in the same way. All Force Weilders until now have only gotten more powerful with time (generally speaking) 

Luke seems less powerful and Rey seems like she is way to powerful as stated. She maby can twirl a lightsaber but again the force is "the energy in all living things" and as Kanan said "she needs to open her minds to it" (not a direct quote) in reference to Sabine Wren. So if someone like Sabine needs to open here mind why doesn't Rey. What's so special about Rey. She (Rey) Has no Prophecy she is just some force sensitive child. So why doesn't she need training like everyone else. Oh right because of RAW STRENGHT! 

Or should I say Disney story STRENGHT and Money!

 

1.) I don’t think a moose god like Bendu would need any training. 

2.) Like Kanan says, the Force resides in all life, but you have to be open to it to actually use it. Based on what we’ve seen and heard throughout the new canon, it seems like it’s a random chance of someone being born with the potential to use the Force, and it’s likely also a potential chance for someone to be even MORE open to it, like Rey and Kylo. Although I’m wondering if maybe it’s somewhat influenced by genetics. If that’s the case, we’re Rey’s parents possibly related to a Force user? Or are her powers a result of a very rare Universal dice roll?

3.) The more I think about it, the more the Jedi and Sith appear to be quite similar. They are essentially the two unhealthy extremes of Force belief, and in the end they’re wrong for just about the same reasons. Plus, the Sith seem to have come from the Jedi after some members of the order came to dislike the strong teachings against showing emotion...and then Malachor happened. That entire event showed that having such extremes in practice of the Force is incredibly dangerous, even if the Jedi think they’re trying to do good for the Galaxy. They shouldn’t be joining together - they should both be destroyed and become some sort of neutral order so that history will not repeat itself. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

1 minute ago, ProtoJeb21 said:

1.) I don’t think a moose god like Bendu would need any training. 

2.) Like Kanan says, the Force resides in all life, but you have to be open to it to actually use it. Based on what we’ve seen and heard throughout the new canon, it seems like it’s a random chance of someone being born with the potential to use the Force, and it’s likely also a potential chance for someone to be even MORE open to it, like Rey and Kylo. Although I’m wondering if maybe it’s somewhat influenced by genetics. If that’s the case, we’re Rey’s parents possibly related to a Force user? Or are her powers a result of a very rare Universal dice roll?

3.) The more I think about it, the more the Jedi and Sith appear to be quite similar. They are essentially the two unhealthy extremes of Force belief, and in the end they’re wrong for just about the same reasons. Plus, the Sith seem to have come from the Jedi after some members of the order came to dislike the strong teachings against showing emotion...and then Malachor happened. That entire event showed that having such extremes in practice of the Force is incredibly dangerous, even if the Jedi think they’re trying to do good for the Galaxy. They shouldn’t be joining together - they should both be destroyed and become some sort of neutral order so that history will not repeat itself. 

Ok yes but again I say my analogy of the kindergartener. What's marked Rey So special that she can pull a Jedi Mind trick with no training. Anakin, Obi Wan, Ashoka, Ezra and many more had to make many attempts and practice it and she never did. She beat a man who destroyed Luke's academy with no training! Could a newbie fencer beat a Pro Fencer? No likely not impossible but I would never bet on it. Rey doesn't seem to be that special their is no reason in the force for her to exist. She has no prophecy the Dark Side is winning with Luke's death she has no special parents. She is as Luke stated a nobody on a no where planet. Balance doesn't need to be restored the Jedi and Sith are gone and Rey had NOTHING to do with it 

She could be that powerful as shown in 7 and 8 by episode 9 with training or do what she did in episode 7 by episode 8 with training. BUT DISNEY DIDNT DO IT! They failed to give us a reason other than raw power. And Raw Power just sound evil honestly. 

[tater]

7 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Ok yes but again I say my analogy of the kindergartener. What's marked Rey So special that she can pull a Jedi Mind trick with no training. Anakin, Obi Wan, Ashoka, Ezra and many more had to make many attempts and practice it and she never did. She beat a man who destroyed Luke's academy with no training! Could a newbie fencer beat a Pro Fencer? No likely not impossible but I would never bet on it. Rey doesn't seem to be that special their is no reason in the force for her to exist. She has no prophecy the Dark Side is winning with Luke's death she has no special parents. She is as Luke stated a nobody on a no where planet. Balance doesn't need to be restored the Jedi and Sith are gone and Rey had NOTHING to do with it 

She could be that powerful as shown in 7 and 8 by episode 9 with training or do what she did in episode 7 by episode 8 with training. BUT DISNEY DIDNT DO IT! They failed to give us a reason other than raw power. And Raw Power just sound evil honestly. 

I haven't ever seen 2 and 3 (no kidding), but isn't the Force in canon something that people either have, or don't? They can't unmake the prequels. If the Force varies in people, then the only thing separating good and evil rule is pretty much who is randomly born with more power. It's like hereditary monarchy. Sometimes you get a Aurelius, sometimes you get Commodus.

The very notion of a republic with jedi seems pretty bizarre. It;s not like the people every have real power when there is an oligarchy of what are effectively wizards around.

[DAL59]

I think IX will be a few years in the future, with more formerly young jedi like we saw at the end of the movie.

[DAL59]

49 minutes ago, tater said:

The very notion of a republic with jedi seems pretty bizarre. It;s not like the people every have real power when there is an oligarchy of what are effectively wizards around.

Here's a theory- part of the reason for Luke's self-imposed exile and wanting the jedi to end was just like you said- was that he was concerned with the "legend" and deification surrounded the jedi.  There's a book series called Eragon, which in my opinion is a ripoff "Inspired" by star wars(seriously the plot is exactly the same but set in middle earth), where they also have to deal with that issue I quoted.  The "Jedi" of that book(who were called Riders and were telepathic, telekinetic, and had unique swords of different colors with crystals in them(seriously its a ripoff(but still a good book(parenthesis overload)))) had to deal with that problem, and, spoiler alert, it ended with the remaining Rider moving far away, to not cause jealousy or conflicts. 

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, tater said:

isn't the Force in canon something that people either have, or don't?

As far as I can tell, a person has somewhere between 0 and infinity Force-Units. Most people have 0 or a very low number so as to effectively be 0, a small number of people (Anakin and Rey for sure) have way over the average, and all the Jedi and Sith we've seen have somewhere in between those extremes.

I take most of this from the Midichlorian discussion with Anakin. Whatever they are, they show some sort of affinity to the Force, and the way Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon talked, Anakin was soaking in it compared to them.

1 hour ago, tater said:

...the only thing separating good and evil rule is pretty much who is randomly born with more power.

From what I can tell (and based on the actual original trilogy and Luke's story), amount of force power and whether or not you are dark or light have nothing directly to do with each other.

Edited December 27, 2017 by 5thHorseman

[Cheif Operations Director]

52 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

As far as I can tell, a person has somewhere between 0 and infinity Force-Units. Most people have 0 or a very low number so as to effectively be 0, a small number of people (Anakin and Rey for sure) have way over the average, and all the Jedi and Sith we've seen have somewhere in between those extremes.

I take most of this from the Midichlorian discussion with Anakin. Whatever they are, they show some sort of affinity to the Force, and the way Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon talked, Anakin was soaking in it compared to them.

From what I can tell (and based on the actual original trilogy and Luke's story), amount of force power and whether or not you are dark or light have nothing directly to do with each other.

 

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

Here's a theory- part of the reason for Luke's self-imposed exile and wanting the jedi to end was just like you said- was that he was concerned with the "legend" and deification surrounded the jedi.  There's a book series called Eragon, which in my opinion is a ripoff "Inspired" by star wars(seriously the plot is exactly the same but set in middle earth), where they also have to deal with that issue I quoted.  The "Jedi" of that book(who were called Riders and were telepathic, telekinetic, and had unique swords of different colors with crystals in them(seriously its a ripoff(but still a good book(parenthesis overload)))) had to deal with that problem, and, spoiler alert, it ended with the remaining Rider moving far away, to not cause jealousy or conflicts. 

 

 

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

I think IX will be a few years in the future, with more formerly young jedi like we saw at the end of the movie.

 

2 hours ago, tater said:

I haven't ever seen 2 and 3 (no kidding), but isn't the Force in canon something that people either have, or don't? They can't unmake the prequels. If the Force varies in people, then the only thing separating good and evil rule is pretty much who is randomly born with more power. It's like hereditary monarchy. Sometimes you get a Aurelius, sometimes you get Commodus.

The very notion of a republic with jedi seems pretty bizarre. It;s not like the people every have real power when there is an oligarchy of what are effectively wizards around.

Everyone is connected to the force nobody has 0.

The force points you refer to are mitoclorians. Anakin had a Force prophecy and was not "just born like that" he was a special case. Rey is a nobody... No prophecy and no linage. Luke had no prophecy but a linage and your were correct about Jedi and Sith being in between. 

My biggest problem is ever single character until Rey has needed training... Rey needs none it makes no sense. 

It would make more sense if their was a prophecy linage or atleast a reason for her power but she is just powerful with no reason. For me it ruins the main problem for the heros in Star Wars until episode 7 I need more POWA! (Training) Its how Luke almost died to Vader is how Anakin Turned. It why the Sith are desperate for Power... because they don't feel they have enough power.

Luke thought he didn't need training Yoda even said "Complete your training you must hmm, hm hm hm hm" (Paraphrasing) 

Yoda also said "not read to face him are you"

Luke went through weeks of training to have his arm chopped off.

Rey had not a scratch with no training and powers far beyond Luke's, Yoda, Anakin, Mace, Sidious, Vader (Anakin), Leia. Kylo, Snoke, etc for no training 

She had less scratches that the Millenium Falcon after the Death Star II attack.

(Joke, Calrissian says not a scratch and loses a dish)

Do you get my point Luke got a lucky shot guided by luck and the force, he didn't get it into the exhaust port. Atleast not in my mind. He was guided by the force to release them at the right time. But he didn't use it that's my opinion. And Luke had a Linage. Anakin had a prophecy that the force itself wanted to happen as seen in the Mortis  ark in the clone wars series. The force thingy (Mortis or what ever) the force planet with the light (daughter) and dark (son) and equal (father) 

the father which held the two together without conflict could use both sides and Anakin was supposed to replace him as the chosen one... to restore balance to the force. This is a big deal Anakins purpose in life was soly to restore balance. HE WAS THAT SPECIAL AND STILL NEEDED TRAINING.

And Rey is a nobody on a nobody planet from a Nobody linage and is more powerful than all just because he is Rey.

Disney Logic.

Thats my opinion

Thoughts?

[PakledHostage]

13 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

And Rey is a nobody on a nobody planet from a Nobody linage and is more powerful than all just because he is Rey.

But we don't know if that is even true? Wasn't it Kylo who told her that? Wouldn't he have good reason to lie to her? To make up some BS in an attempt to undermine her confidence? We've seen that Kylo is a master of deception in the way he simultaneously positioned the light saber in his hand along with the one on Snoke's throne's arm rest to face both his enemies. Snoke could forsee that Kylo was about to turn on the lightsaber, but he was fatally wrong about which one Kylo was going to activate. Presumably Snoke was a powerful Sith, but Kylo's powers of deception made Snoke look like a fool. 

[Cheif Operations Director]

6 minutes ago, PakledHostage said:

But we don't know if that is even true? Wasn't it Kylo who told her that? Wouldn't he have good reason to lie to her? To make up some BS in an attempt to undermine her confidence? We've seen that Kylo is a master of deception in the way he simultaneously positioned the light saber in his hand along with the one on Snoke's throne's arm rest to face both his enemies. Snoke could forsee that Kylo was about to turn on the lightsaber, but he was fatally wrong about which one Kylo was going to activate. Presumably Snoke was a powerful Sith, but Kylo's powers of deception made Snoke look like a fool. 

Snoke isn't a Sith of he was Rey would be in a trash compacter. And Rey's reaction is fear/sadness that she understands it's true. If I say something that you know is too true but don't want to accept it. If I say it, your reaction would be similar too Rey's she is terrified. Plus we see that in Force Awakens in her vision that a ship drops her off and the chubby food guy grabs her. All evidence based on her reaction, Kylo, and the Vision point to it being true. Rey if I remember said yes when Kylo said that. 

So as far as we know Rey is a nobody. That's a Problem!