[WIP] Infernal Robotics - Next

[Temeter]

Question, I'm currently building a variable sweep aircraft for FAR, and it works pretty well for most of the part. However, I got problems with the wing bending; the old trouble with IR nodes not being tough enough to hold wings stable. Causes oscillations during maneuvers, which makes the aircraft sometimes a bit unpredictable and confuses SAS.

I'm using OPs linked version of KJR. Any other ideat what I could do here to fix the stability issue? I want to be able to change the wing angle directly during flight, so struts don't seem to work.

To put it into pictures; here some examples of how the wing flexes, even with extra struts to the pivot. Interstingly enough, the pivot seems perfectly firm and not move at all, it's just the wing mounted to it that displays the instability.

Spoiler

I worry that this will be worse for bigger planes; eg something like a B1 derivative.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Temeter

[kcs123]

I encountered with very similar issue in KSP 1.3.x and 1.4.x while I was having pretty strong crafts in KSP 1.1.x and 1.2.x. It would probably required more than one point to rotate/fold wings, like in this old album.

However, you may also consider using WIP InerLocker mod from @whale_2 and possible active struts (if it is still maintained) to lock/strengthen out wings after moving.

I assume that unity game engine version is culprit for new behaviour, due to changes how joints work in different version of unity game engine. I stoped testing of IR at some point due to temorary lack of free time.

[Rudolf Meier]

Joints and strengths of joints... old topic in Unity and the problems with them won't end soon...

First: A joint can never ever be made strong in a Unity based game. That's impossible. ... even with infinitly high strength values or stuff like that. If you exaggerate, the best you can get is that your crafts explode.

The solution? Well, the only solution is to use more joints. That's how KSP does it internally (they use 3 joints built with some distance of each other), that's how autostruts work (they build additional joints between objects and ancestor objects) and that's how KJR is working (this one modifies values of the existing joints, adds additional ones to ancestor objects and adds joints ... well, not randomly, but let's say it is random for the moment, because it's a little bit complicated... in the craft).

What you can try is to build multiple joints and still have a movement. Try to use non-controlled joints or things like that. The only other option here is, that we build some sort of special joint that internally builds multiple joints. (of which all but one would be non-controlled... maybe, if we form them correctly, it could be possible to achieve some strengthening). But it would require special solutions for special tasks. Maybe it could be done for one special part that then could be used for heavy loaded hinges or something. But it may require even it's own module. I don't think it would be a good idea to do this in normal IR joints. (allthough, the translational ones do something like that). But... let's get to the problems of those solutions:

The more joints (and especially the more non-parent-child-joints), the more computation power is used. Framerates could drop dramatically when using too many joints. That's what already is happening for large ships when you use KJR. There are simply way too many joints involved. And the complexity for the solver isn't linear. That's going up very quickly... so, in the end I think it's a huge problem and remains a huge problem. I think you'd have to rewrite the game engine and the game itself, if you really want a good solution (if there exists one... I haven't thought about this yet).

[Temeter]

4 hours ago, kcs123 said:

I encountered with very similar issue in KSP 1.3.x and 1.4.x while I was having pretty strong crafts in KSP 1.1.x and 1.2.x. It would probably required more than one point to rotate/fold wings, like in this old album.

However, you may also consider using WIP InerLocker mod from @whale_2 and possible active struts (if it is still maintained) to lock/strengthen out wings after moving.

I assume that unity game engine version is culprit for new behaviour, due to changes how joints work in different version of unity game engine. I stoped testing of IR at some point due to temorary lack of free time.

That's an interesting setup. Problem with those more complex systems is that I assume they also cause a lot of drag, which is obviously contrary to the purpose of a swing wing aircraft.

Looked a bit around with dynamics struts, but it seems like they are all rather fiddly to use during flight; particuarly with combat aircraft and BDA. Not yet looked at inerlocker or active struts.

3 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

Joints and strengths of joints... old topic in Unity and the problems with them won't end soon...

First: A joint can never ever be made strong in a Unity based game. That's impossible. ... even with infinitly high strength values or stuff like that. If you exaggerate, the best you can get is that your crafts explode.

The solution? Well, the only solution is to use more joints. That's how KSP does it internally (they use 3 joints built with some distance of each other), that's how autostruts work (they build additional joints between objects and ancestor objects) and that's how KJR is working (this one modifies values of the existing joints, adds additional ones to ancestor objects and adds joints ... well, not randomly, but let's say it is random for the moment, because it's a little bit complicated... in the craft).

What you can try is to build multiple joints and still have a movement. Try to use non-controlled joints or things like that. The only other option here is, that we build some sort of special joint that internally builds multiple joints. (of which all but one would be non-controlled... maybe, if we form them correctly, it could be possible to achieve some strengthening). But it would require special solutions for special tasks. Maybe it could be done for one special part that then could be used for heavy loaded hinges or something. But it may require even it's own module. I don't think it would be a good idea to do this in normal IR joints. (allthough, the translational ones do something like that). But... let's get to the problems of those solutions:

The more joints (and especially the more non-parent-child-joints), the more computation power is used. Framerates could drop dramatically when using too many joints. That's what already is happening for large ships when you use KJR. There are simply way too many joints involved. And the complexity for the solver isn't linear. That's going up very quickly... so, in the end I think it's a huge problem and remains a huge problem. I think you'd have to rewrite the game engine and the game itself, if you really want a good solution (if there exists one... I haven't thought about this yet).

Ah, I see, so it's a deeper problem. I still remember how dodgy the old KSP physics from 1.8 or so were, before all of those fixes were implemented.

 

 

EDIT, wait a sec:

Oh wow, the mod actually has exactly the simple solution I was going to suggest - basically, to allow me to lock the wing into place after I swivelled it into the right place, so it can just establish a connection like any solid part would do. I mean, I only need the flexibility while switching position.

Turns out the "engage lock" option does exactly that. Could be even more comfortable if it was automated - eg, you click "go next position", it unlocks, goes there, then autolocks there. I think that would solve a lot of the issues; but at least for my purposes, this is enough!

Also, on a sidenote, thanks a lot for maintaining and expanding this neat awesome mod! Now this ugly pig can finally fly like it should:

[kcs123]

4 hours ago, Temeter said:

Problem with those more complex systems is that I assume they also cause a lot of drag, which is obviously contrary to the purpose of a swing wing aircraft.

No, not at all, if you use FAR and hide mechanizm inside wings. Can't tell much about stock crafts though. When FAR is not available/updated for KSP and I need to use stock aero then I mostly do stuff in space.

[goblinsrus4]

hi does anyone have eta for update to 1.4.3

parts work fine in vab but if i try and use them outside of vab nothing really happens they just start jiggling then go crazy wild

heres hoping for a quick reply as this is a must have mod (baring mechjeb) it vastily enhances and improves on gameplay

[Rudolf Meier]

2 hours ago, goblinsrus4 said:

hi does anyone have eta for update to 1.4.3

parts work fine in vab but if i try and use them outside of vab nothing really happens they just start jiggling then go crazy wild

heres hoping for a quick reply as this is a must have mod (baring mechjeb) it vastily enhances and improves on gameplay

sounds like you have KJR installed, but an original version and not 3.4.1-p1 (see first page)

[Cdodders]

Tried the updated KJR but KSP keeps disabling it due it being outdated

[PrimoDev]

Just found an interesting bug, when you have a craft with IR part oriented in special direction (I mean not the default one when you pick the parts from the menu), you just have to F5 to quicksave and when you F9 to load it, all the IR parts are now orientated in the default position which can cause several aesthetic problems and I guess more (but haven't tried) if the collisions are enabled...

 

Just tell me if you need more infos !

[Rudolf Meier]

1 hour ago, PrimoDev said:

Just found an interesting bug, when you have a craft with IR part oriented in special direction (I mean not the default one when you pick the parts from the menu), you just have to F5 to quicksave and when you F9 to load it, all the IR parts are now orientated in the default position which can cause several aesthetic problems and I guess more (but haven't tried) if the collisions are enabled...

 

Just tell me if you need more infos !

this shouldn't happen... it should store/load the positions... and quicksave should do it the same way round, but I never explicitly tried it with quicksave...

I will go through all the reported bugs soon, when I've again some time to work on this project

2 hours ago, Cdodders said:

Tried the updated KJR but KSP keeps disabling it due it being outdated

that's because the original KJR is another KJR... the original KJR isn't updated (I don't know if they will ever)... you need to remove it and install my KJR (that's not on CKAN yet)... and then it's also not outdated, because I allow all 1.4.x versions from 1.4.0 to 1.4.99

[Cdodders]

7 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

this shouldn't happen... it should store/load the positions... and quicksave should do it the same way round, but I never explicitly tried it with quicksave...

I will go through all the reported bugs soon, when I've again some time to work on this project

that's because the original KJR is another KJR... the original KJR isn't updated (I don't know if they will ever)... you need to remove it and install my KJR (that's not on CKAN yet)... and then it's also not outdated, because I allow all 1.4.x versions from 1.4.0 to 1.4.99

Ah cheers

[Sahadara]

When using a few other mods, the game crashes on startup, apparently an access violation. Not sure which one is causing it, will post mods and logs.

I made sure to use the correct KJR, which makes this work when the other mods aren't installed.

error.log

Mods

Thanks for any help!

Edited May 16, 2018 by Sahadara

[Rudolf Meier]

One thing that is and remains very interesting is, that if you attach an IR part via a "Modular Girder Segment", then those elements are almost not connected. Like with a rubber band (especially if you down scale those segments. That's something I don't understand at the moment... could be that's something I need to fix, could be it is "just a KSP problem"... I'm not sure yet.

 

[aiden_mt]

I don't know if I did something wrong or if this is a bug, but whenever I try to control IR parts, it keeps getting a "whiplash" effect if I switch direction abruptly (e.g. opening and closing hinges). It would behave absolutely normal if I just wait for a bit before changing direction. I made a short clip to demonstrate that:

Here is the list of mods I used:

Spoiler

Action Groups Extended (AGExt 2.3.35)
Alternate Resource Panel (AlternateResourcePanel v2.9.3.0)
Astronomer's Visual Pack (AstronomersVisualPack 1:3.7.1.0)
Astronomer's Visual Pack-2k Textures (AVP-2kTextures v1.7)
Background Resources (BackgroundResources v0.13.9.0)
BDArmoryContinued (BDArmoryContinued 1:v1.2.1)
Chatterer (Chatterer 0.9.95)
Chatterer Extended (ChattererExtended 0.6.2)
Click Through Blocker (ClickThroughBlocker 0.1.6.3)
Community Category Kit (CommunityCategoryKit 3.0.0.0)
Community Resource Pack (CommunityResourcePack 0.10.0.0)
Distant Object Enhancement (DistantObject v1.9.1)
Distant Object Enhancement default config (DistantObject-default v1.9.1)
Docking Port Alignment Indicator (DockingPortAlignmentIndicator 6.8.2)
Docking Port Sound FX (DockingPortSoundFX v2.1.12)
Engine Lighting (EngineLighting 1.5.1)
Environmental Visual Enhancements (EnvironmentalVisualEnhancements 2:EVE-1.4.2-2)
IndicatorLights (IndicatorLights 1.3.1)
Interstellar Fuel Switch Core (InterstellarFuelSwitch-Core 3.4)
Kerbal Attachment System (KAS 0.6.4.0)
Kerbal Engineer Redux (KerbalEngineerRedux 1.1.4.11)
Kerbal Inventory System (KIS 1.12)
Kerbal Planetary Base Systems (KerbalPlanetaryBaseSystems v1.6.3)
Kerbal Simpit (KerbalSimpit 1.2.7.56)
Kopernicus Planetary System Modifier (Kopernicus 2:release-1.4.3-2)
kRPC: Remote Procedure Call Server (kRPC v0.4.5)
LoadingScreenManager (LoadingScreenManager 1.2.4.1)
MechJeb 2 (MechJeb2 2.7.3.0)
ModularFlightIntegrator (ModularFlightIntegrator 1.2.5.0)
Module Manager (ModuleManager 3.0.7)
Physics Range Extender  (PhysicsRangeExtender 1.6.0)
PlanetShine (PlanetShine 0.2.6.1)
PlanetShine - Default configuration (PlanetShine-Config-Default 0.2.6.1)
RasterPropMonitor (RasterPropMonitor 1:v0.30.2)
RasterPropMonitor Core (RasterPropMonitor-Core 1:v0.30.2)
Real Plume (RealPlume 2:v11.0.0)
Real Plume - Stock Configs (RealPlume-StockConfigs v1.2.0)
SCANsat (SCANsat v18.6)
scatterer (Scatterer 2:v0.0331b)
scatterer - default config (Scatterer-config 2:v0.0331b)
scatterer - sunflare (Scatterer-sunflare 2:v0.0331b)
SmokeScreen - Extended FX Plugin (SmokeScreen 2.8.0.0)
SpaceY Expanded (SpaceY-Expanded 1.4)
SpaceY Heavy Lifters (SpaceY-Lifters 1.17.2)
Surface Mounted Lights (surfacelights 1.7)
TAC Life Support (TACLS) (TACLS v0.13.9.0)
Toolbar (Toolbar 1.7.17.11)
TweakScale - Rescale Everything! (TweakScale v2.3.12)

along with IR 3.0.0p7 and KJR (yes, the version from the first page)

[Rudolf Meier]

28 minutes ago, aiden_mt said:

I don't know if I did something wrong or if this is a bug, but whenever I try to control IR parts, it keeps getting a "whiplash" effect if I switch direction abruptly (e.g. opening and closing hinges). It would behave absolutely normal if I just wait for a bit before changing direction. I made a short clip to demonstrate that:

nice :-) ... normally I would say "I don't like this game engine", but this one could be my bug...

I'm playing a new career currently and I'm now testing all those things in my own game... I should be able to fix a lot of them... because when I see those in my own game it's much easier to figure out what happend and what I did before it happend

[PrimoDev]

Okay so will resume you not the last but the previous bug it wasn't very clear when I posted it :

Put a "Hinge Pivotron - Flat" sized "small -" and run a few meters on the runway and it should invoke the kraken.

But the bug doesn't appear if the craft isn't touching the ground, neither if you change the size of the hinge.

 

I Would like to report another.. well not a bug, just a misspelled word in IR Sequencer : https://imgur.com/a/NitpPv0

Edited May 18, 2018 by PrimoDev
Misspelled word found in IR Sequencer

[_Virgil]

On 5/12/2018 at 1:16 AM, _Virgil said:

IR Sequencer isn't working for me. The robotic control unit is available as a part, but there is no GUI in the toolbar.

I have downloaded IR v3 beta3 patch7, and IR Sequencer v3.0.0 for 1.3.1.

Bump

[Rallyman03]

On 4/25/2018 at 10:47 AM, Rallyman03 said:

So I'm having an interesting bug. Admittedly I'm new to infernal robotics but I'm attempting to use the rotatortrons for a vtol craft. Everything works great in the VAB/SPH. But as soon as I launch the vehicle I get a weird texture glitch where parts I'm looking straight at go transparent or use the sky texture. All infernal robotic parts do not work either. If I attempt to use them, my viewpoint launches into the sky and my altimeter shows 000000m, I then need to revert flight because I can't do anything else. If I do not attempt to activate an infernal robotics part, then I can continue the flight as normal. Any ideas? Let me know what you need to help. 

 

PS. I removed infernal robotics from my game data and the problem is gone. So I'm pretty certain it involves this mod. 

So as a continuation as of the last IR update my arms and IR parts all work. However if I go into 4x physics acceleration it causes the altimeter to say 00000 and the image to change to just the space skybox. The only way to fix this is to completely reload the game. 

[RocketBlam]

On 5/20/2018 at 10:18 PM, Rallyman03 said:

So as a continuation as of the last IR update my arms and IR parts all work. However if I go into 4x physics acceleration it causes the altimeter to say 00000 and the image to change to just the space skybox. The only way to fix this is to completely reload the game. 

This happens to me also. I have a VTOL spacecraft, and when I'm re-entering, if I try to go to 4x physics... just like you said. Everything disappears and it instantly says you're at 0000 altitude.

I was able to re-enter by only going to 3x physics, though.

ETA: Also, sometimes in this craft, the IR window will show that I have two sets of bearing rototrons, even though I'm only using one. If I delete the real set, the phantom set is still there, and I have to exit and re-enter the SPH to get rid of it.

EATA: Sometimes, the "presets" function doesn't work right. I have both rototrons set to presets at 0, 45 and 90 degrees. But if I try to use them, only one rototron moves. However, if I first move them using normal mode (non-preset), thereafter, the presets will work normally.

Edited May 22, 2018 by RocketBlam

[Rudolf Meier]

Currently I don't have much time. But I will work on all those problems next week (when everything goes as planed)... I see them here too, so reproduction isn't a problem. Some bugs are obvious, some others not. That's why I will have to add some kind of "extreme logging" for all values to find out what happens. If you are dealing with normal software, it's easier to do... if you are dealing with stuff that's generating random values, then it's more difficult (because you cannot replay the crash-cases easily) ... anyway. I'll find it.

... and I will also build a new KJR that allows to see what's going on. Why it's slow, what joints it generates... things like that. We don't have enough information at the moment.

The debugging versions of both mods will get a lot of new functions... but that's the only way to find the problems.

4 hours ago, RocketBlam said:

...

I know those 3 problems. I think I have solved the phantom part bug already (not released), I know the presets problem and this should be solved in the next version (that's because the gui is using real positions instead of commanded positions) and the first one... that's the bit more difficult one. That's why I need the extreme logging ... (or "xtreme logging" ™).

[tarkhil]

As far as I've found, IR does not work with Kerbal Joint Reinforcement; does in mean that IR provides stronger joints by itself or I'll have to live with jogging rockets?

[Rudolf Meier]

2 hours ago, tarkhil said:

As far as I've found, IR does not work with Kerbal Joint Reinforcement; does in mean that IR provides stronger joints by itself or I'll have to live with jogging rockets?

Well... what do you mean with "does not work with KJR?" ... it does. There is even a special version for it.

Now, about the joint strength. Many seem to think that KJR is just modifying the joints and that's it. But that's not true. It's more complicated. KJR (and autostruts also) is creating a lot of additional joints. And with a lot I mean a lot... if your ship does have more than just some parts (let's say more than 20 to 30 parts), then you have more joints generated by KJR than you had in your unmodified craft (depending on the settings). I'm currently working on a version that can visualize this for debugging reasons. Now, those joints are conneting all kinds of parts. For example the top of your rocket with an engine of your first stage. Then a decoupler in the middle with your fairing... so, really a lot. That's how the stability is built (and that's also why it slows the game down... additional to just having a lot of joints we also have the problem that the joint-relations are pretty complicated for the solver, because it's not just a parent-child relation for all joints).

If you do now have a ship with let's say 30 parts on one side of an IR part and 30 parts on the other side. Then normally you would have ... maybe 40 joints accross this connection. If the IR part should remain functional, then you'd have to move all those joints at the same time. And since they don't have the same angle, rotation axis and anchor points, that would be a very difficult task... that's why KJR (and autostruts) is told not to build those joints accross an active IR part (those that are locked are allowed to be reinforced). And that's why those joints seem to be weak. But, of course IR does build them stronger than normal joints. Still, it cannot compete with those huge amounts of joints you would have in normal cases.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Rudolf Meier

[The Minmus Derp]

I’m totally making a folding-wing aircraft with this and Heisenberg airships.

[Boersgard]

Is there a FAQ for infernal robotics so I can read more about it?

Do you need to be a programmer to make everything work? I'm interested in creating very compact rovers that unfold themselves, but I've never used infernal robotics before and don't know what would be involved in getting to that point.

Additionally, would the current beta release be stable enough for basic tasks like this in 1.4.3?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Boersgard

[tarkhil]

9 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

Well... what do you mean with "does not work with KJR?" ... it does. There is even a special version for it.

Can you please give me a link?