Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[Derb]

15 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

DESCRIPTION OF ONLINE SERVICES

Subject to full compliance with this Agreement, the Company may offer to provide certain products, services, and websites accessed through internet-capable hardware platforms including gaming consoles, personal computers, mobile computers, or mobile devices, or in-game applications or software platforms including third-party hosts (collectively the "Online Services").

The company may offer you the use of third-party hosts. This would be if T2 entered into an agreement with say, Spacedock, to provide hosting for mods. If Spacedock became the official Squad licensed host of KSP mods, then yes Spacedock would be part of the Online Services. Spacedock and Github have no such agreements to my knowledge.

Edit: It can't be irrelevant where mods are hosted, because a non T2 website could claim ownership to what is posted there through their own terms of service - T2 can't exert the ownership control you are thinking of over websites they don't own or partner with.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Derb

[swjr-swis]

3 minutes ago, Derb said:

The company may offer you the use of third-party hosts. This would be if T2 entered into an agreement with say, Spacedock, to provide hosting for mods. If Spacedock became the official Squad licensed host of KSP mods, then yes Spacedock would be part of the Online Services. Spacedock and Github have no such agreements to my knowledge.

Curse(forge) probably falls under that interpretation though.

[Derb]

1 minute ago, swjr-swis said:

Curse(forge) probably falls under that interpretation though.

Do they have some special agreement? (I know I've heard that, but could you direct me to a statement I could find on this?)

[swjr-swis]

9 minutes ago, Derb said:

Do they have some special agreement? (I know I've heard that, but could you direct me to a statement I could find on this?)

I don't know, but they do link directly to it from the top of this forum (the 'Get Mods!' tab at the top).

[klgraham1013]

14 minutes ago, Derb said:

Do they have some special agreement? (I know I've heard that, but could you direct me to a statement I could find on this?)

I remember when it became the official mod repository, but I'm to lazy to search for an official statement.  To be honest I always forget it exists.  SpaceDock or bust.

[Derb]

2 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

I remember when it became the official mod repository, but I'm to lazy to search for an official statement.  To be honest I always forget it exists.  SpaceDock or bust.

 

7 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

I don't know, but they do link directly to it from the top of this forum (the 'Get Mods!' tab at the top).

 

Seems you'd have to ask Curseforge - Squad can recommend it all they want but I don't see it being enforceable unless Curseforge recognizes and makes the details of their partnership readily apparent.

[klgraham1013]

Just now, Derb said:

Seems you'd have to ask Curseforge - Squad can recommend it all they want but I don't see it being enforceable unless Curseforge recognizes and makes the details of their partnership readily apparent.

Asking Squad to communicate...  I chuckled a little.

[Derb]

Just now, klgraham1013 said:

Asking Squad to communicate...  I chuckled a little.

Ha, that's why I said Curseforge instead.

[Poodmund]

2 hours ago, Deddly said:

If you have concerns that someone will take your mods and make money from them, might I suggest a more restrictive license like GPL (which could force Squad to make KSP open source if they incorporated your mod into it) or CC BY-NC, which prevents commercial use? ARR works too, but it's very restrictive - it doesn't even allow a person to send a copy to a friend if the download link fails.

That's what the licenses that we apply against each and every one of the mods released on this forum say and go by, however, as stated in the EULA, releasing these mods on this forum, and maybe elsewhere, give SQUAD/T2 the ability/permission to bypass these license restrictions... I think that's what a lot of modders are concerned with.

[Derb]

1 minute ago, Poodmund said:

as stated in the EULA, releasing these mods on this forum, and maybe elsewhere, give SQUAD/T2 the ability/permission to bypass these license restrictions

People generally don't host their mods on the forum. T2 can't claim content on sites they don't own. Even if people hosted on the forum, what makes you think the EULA overrides the license, and not the other way around?

[severedsolo]

13 minutes ago, Derb said:

People generally don't host their mods on the forum. T2 can't claim content on sites they don't own. Even if people hosted on the forum, what makes you think the EULA overrides the license, and not the other way around?

"No purported reservation of rights incorporated in or accompanying any submission shall have any force or effect."

[Derb]

Just now, severedsolo said:

"No purported reservation of rights incorporated in or accompanying any submission shall have any force or effect."

And if my license says "no purported nullification of rights shall have any force or effect"?

[severedsolo]

1 minute ago, Derb said:

And if my license says "no purported nullification of rights shall have any force or effect"?

Well that's one of the things that we asked for clarification on. No clarification has been forthcoming

[Derb]

Just now, severedsolo said:

Well that's one of the things that we asked for clarification on. No clarification has been forthcoming

Why do we need clarification if mods aren't hosted on the forum? And that's more of a question of law, that only a court could answer.

[severedsolo]

4 minutes ago, Derb said:

Why do we need clarification if mods aren't hosted on the forum? And that's more of a question of law, that only a court could answer.

Because I shouldn't have to take them to court, or hire a lawyer half way around the world to deal with this in a new York Court for something I do for fun?

[swjr-swis]

4 minutes ago, Derb said:

And that's more of a question of law, that only a court could answer.

Which effectively means we lose, since very few of us can afford to even start a legal battle with a corporate law team. 'Losing' in this case meaning that they get to disregard our terms/rights, and freely do as they wish in accordance to their terms, regardless of whether it would stand up to scrutiny in court.

[Derb]

3 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Because I shouldn't have to take them to court, or hire a lawyer half way around the world to deal with this in a new York Court for something I do for fun?

But why do you think that would happen if your mods aren't hosted on the forum? How are the ToS at issue in that case, when it only applies to the forum and other Squad owned online services?

Edited March 5, 2018 by Derb

[Deddly]

34 minutes ago, Poodmund said:

That's what the licenses that we apply against each and every one of the mods released on this forum say and go by, however, as stated in the EULA, releasing these mods on this forum, and maybe elsewhere, give SQUAD/T2 the ability/permission to bypass these license restrictions... I think that's what a lot of modders are concerned with.

Yes I understand. I was merely pointing out that so far, Squad hasn't taken a bunch of MIT-licensed mods and started selling them, even though they are legally allowed to. I'm not sure why they would start doing that, and I'm also quite sure that any change to the EULA doesn't trump the license you choose for your mod.

[swjr-swis]

Just now, Derb said:

But why do you think that would happen if your mods aren't hosted on the forum?

You are comparing what you feel is the reasonable or expected interpretation with what is actually in words in the terms.

What is a reasonable interpretation or expected outcome if tried in court is irrelevant when most of us would not even be able to start said court case if they ever decided to apply what their terms say they feel entitled to do.

[Derb]

1 minute ago, swjr-swis said:

You are comparing what you feel is the reasonable or expected interpretation with what is actually in words in the terms.

What is a reasonable interpretation or expected outcome if tried in court is irrelevant when most of us would not even be able to start said court case if they ever decided to apply what their terms say they feel entitled to do.

What am I missing? Where do the terms extend outside Squad owned websites and services?

[theonegalen]

2 hours ago, Derb said:

What am I missing? Where do the terms extend outside Squad owned websites and services?

That goes back to "created through the Software." I use PartTools for every cockpit I make. I do configs and textures for individual gauges in Notepad++ and paint.net, but all the props are placed with PartTools. So the question I'm trying to get clarification on is whether or not that means that everything I make through hours and hours and days and weeks and months of work just belongs to TT now.

[Derb]

1 minute ago, theonegalen said:

That goes back to "created through the Software." I use PartTools for every cockpit I make. I do configs and textures for individual gauges in Notepad++ and paint.net, but all the props are placed with PartTools. So the question I'm trying to get clarification on is whether or not that means that everything I make through hours and hours and days and weeks and months of work just belongs to TT now.

My comment was in reference to the "online services" provision - I have people saying Squad can take your things posted on the forums and needing clarification about this, but can't explain why they need this clarification, when it doesn't matter because mods aren't even hosted on the forum in the first place.

 

As regards PartTools, what do you mean by using PartTools to place your props? Don't you use Unity to do this? From what I understand, the options PartTools affords simply allow what you've put together in Unity to work in KSP.

[theonegalen]

10 minutes ago, Derb said:

As regards PartTools, what do you mean by using PartTools to place your props? Don't you use Unity to do this? From what I understand, the options PartTools affords simply allow what you've put together in Unity to work in KSP.

No, part tools allows me to load the props I've created into Unity as well as save them into a configuration file. I'm not sure if the gizmos included are normal Unity gizmos or part tools gizmos.

The other thing is how there are multiple people here with multiple different concern all related to the updated TOS and EULA.

Edited March 5, 2018 by theonegalen

[Derb]

2 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

No, part tools allows me to load the props I've created into Unity as well as save them into a configuration file. I'm not sure if the gizmos included are normal Unity gizmos or part tools gizmos.

The other thing is how there are multiple people here with multiple different concern all related to the updated TOS and EULA.

I see what you mean - you use PT gizmos when you make your stuff in Unity and export it - is that about right? My understanding is that you could create the same final model in Unity without PT, it just wouldn't work with KSP. Regardless, you already own your models and textures before this part of the process, and unless PartTools is adding material that is copyrightable in its own right, you will retain the copyright to the output. A few pages back I've gone into greater detail about what constitutes derivative work according to the US Copyright Office.

[severedsolo]

Just now, Derb said:

My comment was in reference to the "online services" provision - I have people saying Squad can take your things posted on the forums and needing clarification about this, but can't explain why they need this clarification, when it doesn't matter because mods aren't even hosted on the forum in the first place.

Actually you asked why people thought that if the mods were hosted on the forum why we think the EULA would trump the license. That was the basis of my replies to you. Sorry if there were any crossed wires there.

I've already said a couple of times I agree with you on the 3rd Party Host stuff (which is why I backed off from the "Oh my god we are all doomed!" scenario back on page 4 or 5)