1.4.1 & Making History Really Buggy

[steve_v]

11 hours ago, s_powers said:

I'm actually pretty stunned and very disappointed in the amount of really obvious bugs in 1.4 and 1.4.1.

You and me both, buddy. It's SQUAD, there are always a slew of new and glaring bugs each release, but I anticipated they would put a bit more polish on this much-hyped "buy our DLC" launch.

11 hours ago, s_powers said:

the shambolic live stream launch

Uhhh... I don't usually watch this stuff, but I went and had a look at the recording. Wow. I could probably do better production quality (and framerate) from my garage, on 30minutes notice.
I couldn't get Scott in though, he'd have been the best bit if I could hear him through the blood dribbling out of my right ear...
Great first impression of MH right there.

 

4 hours ago, panzer1b said:

There is nothing wrong with bugs, but releasing a new game update without an open beta test period, and ofc release it with a good number of (yeah minor, but still) annoyances which do get noticed quite quickly isnt what id call professional.

This^.

4 hours ago, panzer1b said:

After TT took over, i at least expected some good money put into development, but it seems that not only did they neglect the community, add questionable content (EULA scandal and analytics/spyware anyone), and release something with this many bugs, only to meet some predetermined release date.

And this^

4 hours ago, panzer1b said:

id far prefer they delay a product release then push it out with lots of bugs and glitches

And I've been saying this for years. It actually seems to be getting worse.
 

1 hour ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Pretty much everyone is asking why they didn't do more testing and what kind of Q&A did they do, but I keep wondering who did it.

My guess is: "nobody at all".  Not sure how else to explain it.

1 hour ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

you give this to any serious player and they'll find these things within a day

I encountered 3 obvious (though not game-breaking) bugs in ten minutes of "smoke test" gameplay after I installed 1.4.1. Not even trying to push the thing, just loaded it up, looked around the facilities, and launched a 3-part rocket. Then quit in disgust, awaiting the next "hotfix".

@SQUAD: Too many new bugs, turd requires more polishing.

Ed. Oh, and one absolutely game-breaking bug: Joysticks and controllers do not work at all on GNU/Linux.
Flight Outcome: Catastrophic Failure.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by steve_v

[CattyNebulart]

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

And I've been saying this for years. It actually seems to be getting worse.

Honestly while 1.4.0 is full of glarign bugs that should have been caught  it's not nearly as bad as it was in the 1.0 days. But yes QA clearly clearly failed, and they need to release a few more patches to fix things, esspecialy the top row of icons still beign vut in half in 1.4.1. They fixed it on mac but not on linux? WTH?

[steve_v]

17 minutes ago, CattyNebulart said:

it's not nearly as bad as it was in the 1.0 days

Perhaps, though I don't recall much particularly serious besides the well-known memory leaks and new aero model shenanigans. I have been using x64 & FAR forever, so they didn't bother me much. The randomly-exploding thermal system sure did, but that was forgivably non-obvious.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

I was just joking...

So, 1.4.2 will be the thing.

 

[Mako]

It really feels to me as if it's exactly what @klgraham1013 said earlier in the thread, and what I've been saying for weeks: Take-Two's fiscal year ends in March and big, publicly-traded publishers like to push games out right before year end to show either a return on investment to stock holders, or show an operational loss to the tax man.

It's only speculation, since we'll never hear a confirmation or denial from anyone, but this is a business decision made by executives that are more interested in making investors happy than making customers happy.

KSP, for all of its unexpected popularity, is still a small, niche, "indie" game with limited recognition; it's hardly the household name that GTA is. KSP is the kind of title where you'll see this "shove it out before year end" behavior because they feel can get away with it without too much press coverage and with limited fuss from a small community.

I can't think of a more logical explanation for rushing it out. I'm pretty sure everyone would rather have a polished release that takes more time than a rushed release with issues. I'm sure the folks at Squad would have been happy to have more time as well.

As a self-published indie title there is almost never a need to rush anything -- unless production funds run out -- and all due care can be given to release a polished product. As soon as you have a big publisher calling the shots the focus is less on the game's quality and more on how it affects the bottom line; decisions will be made according to what the number crunchers want to see rather than what the designers/developers want to see. Sometimes improving release quality is perceived to be directly proportional to improving the bottom line and everyone benefits, but sometimes quality is perceived to be worth sacrificing for improving the bottom line.

I almost can't be mad about a business doing what it perceives to be in its best interest, and these days I'm only ever surprised (and almost always skeptical) when big video game companies make decisions that actually seem to favor the customers over themselves.

 

All that said, Squad usually does bang away on updates until they're actually in quite decent shape, so I'm looking forward to that. Hopefully now that it's out Take-Two will leave it alone again and let Squad patch it up to a point where most agree it's in good shape.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Mako

[MaximumThrust]

Glad I stayed in 1.3.1, and very happy to see many modders keeping compatibility for it in the recent updates.

I'm very happy with my install with around 120 mods, there are no parts or features that I want and don't have.

[s_powers]

Could you zoom in on vessels until the camera clips right into it in 1.3.1? I think there was some clipping but i think the camera stopped you clipping right into the middle of the vessel?

 

[steve_v]

37 minutes ago, s_powers said:

Could you zoom in on vessels until the camera clips right into it in 1.3.1?

Sure you can, that's how you get at stuff mounted inside the structural fuselage

N.B. this is pointless in the stock not-aero model, as fuselages don't occlude parts inside them.

[s_powers]

I see, its strange that i didn't notice that. I know there was some clipping but it seemed that there was more clipping in 1.4.1 . Maybe they even increase it for the reason you said, it would make sense. Would be nice to hear some clarity from them.

[Gorman]

ok so yall convinced me there maybe some qa issues going on here. I'm just theorizing here for a minute. Last year T2 bought KSP the product but not Squad the company. Was that cos Squad wanted to concentrate on its core business going forward? Squad's core business is not video games, but looks like it is exhibition services. So maybe they are not only doing the bare minimum of what T2 is asking them to do (I assume they have some sort of development/maintenance contract with T2 as part of the deal?). So may be the reason for lack of QA testing is that T2 didn't ask them to do it or are not paying them for it. Whats do you theorize on this bros?

[s_powers]

Well i don't really want to speculate as i don't know the details, i can only judge from what i have seen. From what i have seen so far the team now seems very disjointed. The main core of the Dev team (KSP is their baby) has left. There are 'take-two era' Devs now working together that are located in Vietnam, UK, Mexico, US and possibly more.

I can also believe there are remaining members of the squad team who i suspect have their jobs secured in negotiation during the take over of take-two that are way under-qualified for their roles. I'm not sure how this will affect their motivation and i can't speculate but judging by what was presented to me at the launch party I am very concerned. There also seemed to be a very muted atmosphere, no one wanted to declare anything that was going on, a real sign of insecurity of the situation. Again concerning.

I would clarify that I'm not a mind-reader and i'm not sure that they are insecure but the alternative is ignorant and that is probably worse. I feel someone really needed to at least say, well we messed (for want of better word) this podcast up because of xy or z and maybe it would help us understand and bring some depth to the launchcast. Instead they kinda tried to play it off and not say anything like they were hiding from it. Again not the sign a confident team, to me at least.

I was watching with concern and my concerns where realized when I played the updated game and noticed very, very obvious bugs left in.

I really would ask that people be brutally honest and realistic when it comes to deadlines and warn people ahead of time about any difficulties you are having, if you didn't notice the bugs, you need to hire someone that does because they were startlingly obvious, i have emphasized this point, but i am utterly amazed.

As a final message I would ask any developers at squad to blink quickly three times if you are being held against your will and/or pressured by take two to release thing that you know are unfit to release. This is a safe place.

 

 

 

[Gorman]

That sounds like insight. Another thing I thought about is, the game engine Unity. Unity is one of most popular dev platforms. Even I have made mobile app using Unity platform. Unity developers are common skill you can find in the marketplace. Maybe what is happening is that T2 are putting together a team who are just generic Unity developers but not rocket science enthusiasts. This will become more and more noticeable over time I think if this is true. Anyways just more theories with no basis on known facts.

[Laie]

19 hours ago, s_powers said:

I'm actually pretty stunned and very disappointed in the amount of really obvious bugs in 1.4 and 1.4.1. It is almost as if no one even tested the update at all. If they did then they really did the community a disservice by releasing it in this state.

[...]

KSP Player since late Alpha.

If you've been around so long, I'm surprised at your surprise. Until now, every major update had issues and required at least one set of hotfixes. That some of the issues seem pretty obvious (as in "how could they miss that") also isn't new.

I don't know why this is so, but I've got used to it. Until now they always provided a hotfix within a few weeks' time and that's good enough for me.

(Haven't even downloaded 1.4 yet)

[s_powers]

Ye, i have also used unity for a WebGl project. It's ease of use for beginners is one of the main reasons it was chosen for KSP.

I too share the concern that over time they could do irreversible harm to the game. I think that part of the magic formula was Felipe's passion for the genre, something lacking in the development of most modern games, of which i barely play any.

I would like to add that my constructive criticism of the launchcast in no way includes the mighty Scott Manley, who looked as bewildered as the rest of us.

 

 

 

[Sirad]

18 hours ago, Gargamel said:

But having to do the job again costs more than getting it right the first time. 

Like the console Port ?

Riskmanagement probably decided that 'Trying to get away half done' is worth a second try ?

[s_powers]

Laie, I would probably be more empathetic if it was still in the hands of  inexperienced devs making their first game. I take nothing away from their raw talent and doing an incredible job but experience takes time.

however i , and i think many others, expected a lot more polish to be brought to the game considering the major publishers and their new Dev team. The should have very refined project pipelines and management of personnel to stop things like this from happening. 

It all seems like a bit of an unorganized, rag-tag , add on crew.

[klgraham1013]

Reminder:  Take Two didn't buy Squad.  They bought KSP. 

[Laie]

@s_powers be careful what you wish for. Being taken over can change everything, but doesn't have to.

For the time being, squad still seems to be squad. I have an inkling that this is preferable to heavy meddling from the new overloards.

[TK421d]

i'm overall unimpressed with it, and EXTREMELY dissapointed with the steam version having DRM, it will only work in the stock steam directory, so i cannot play my modded installs.

 

i'm refunding it since the parts wont even load anyway.

[basic.syntax]

1 hour ago, TK421d said:

i'm overall unimpressed with it, and EXTREMELY dissapointed with the steam version having DRM, it will only work in the stock steam directory, so i cannot play my modded installs.

i'm refunding it since the parts wont even load anyway.

Something else may be going on with one of your mods expecting a certain directory/folder, because I'm able to run copies of KSP in other locations. (I run with very few mods.) This is a question best put in the tech support / modified installs forum category.

Every time a new version comes out, I make a copy on another drive. You would see entire threads about DRM in the forums, if KSP had added it. Some players have concerns that one of the code libraries KSP is using in 1.4.x may be "phoning home" some info, but that is not DRM.  

[Zeiss Ikon]

I realize it may be unpopular in this pessimistic thread, but here's the way I see it:

1.4.0 had a few bugs.  The only significant one I noticed was not seeing the Kerbal View for the new Mk. 1-3 command pod (which also directly affected EVA, in that the EVA button was in the Kerbal View).  That has definitely been fixed with 1.4.1/Making History (which I've now installed and tried).  The only mod I use, Better Burn Time, still works with 1.4.1 and Making History installed, and further the upgrade doesn't seem to have damaged my 1.3.0-originated career save.  Others were what I'd call cosmetic -- overdone reentry effects, engine sounds.

In fact, with the limited playing time I've had with it so far, the only problem I see with 1.4.1/Making History is something I should have expected: it's even harder on my laptop's thermal issues than 1.3.0 was.  The Unity upgrade has improved my yellow clock issues on my desktop machine, as long as I don't run full screen, none of the engines I use regularly (rocket engines only, I don't have many jet powered craft and only half the tech tree open in career) sound bad, and 1.4.1 seems to have improved the reentry effects (which were a little overblown in 1.4.0).

This seems odd to me, because I've been called a doomsayer many times in a number of different venues -- but I don't see the newest versions of KSP as indicative of the beginning of the end, I see them as approximately typical of software being maintained and upgraded by people who weren't involved in the creation of the system.  I believe things will improve as the development process moves into a steady state.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Zeiss Ikon
typo

[Wallygator]

Making History Bugs and Money

And great job at that.

Sadly, I agree with other folks.

I'm currently struggling with these damn-delicate-made-of-glass-stock fairings. Jeeze.

Oh, and the random "rocket won't ignite" feature.

And STILL there are very little interesting things to do and see once your precious little Kerbals are in space...

I am now reminded why I stepped away from KSP a number of months ago.

2 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

I believe things will improve as the development process moves into a steady state.

There are s few of us who have had this opinion since .25

 

[Delbrutis]

9 hours ago, TK421d said:

i'm overall unimpressed with it, and EXTREMELY dissapointed with the steam version having DRM, it will only work in the stock steam directory, so i cannot play my modded installs.

 

i'm refunding it since the parts wont even load anyway.

Yeah I play almost exclusively on Linux and there are some GL bugs with the new unity update. I tried the new DLC out on my win 10 laptop that I rarely ever play KSP on. And right off the bat when I installed the new Big brother DLC all my installs Including my Older versions stopped working. I made a KerbalBack directory under the same steam common folder as the base game and that seems to fool big brother just fine. Play as many installs as you can like that while it still works.  I'm not sure some of the problems Linux users are having with screen resolution and windowed games crashing might not be related to the DLC? Since about the version 1.1 release maybe longer "I cant remember" Unity has been writing Info to a separate system file. Its the .config file and this is normal on linux other program's use it. this used to screw up install outside of steam and not let you edit your graphics settings. It would not let you apply them. And you would never get a cfg file for your setting to save under your game folder.  The solution used to be delete the system file and write a blank or copy the cfg file or a copy of the file from a older game. This bug? has come and gone with different versions of KSP . When you run the game from a clean untouched steam copy you made it always starts without the Settings.cfg under the KSP directory. And the start screen would give you the option if you wanted to share system data with Squad. And that's when the game would bug out writing info to the Home/user/.cfg/unity3d/Squad file. I believe their is a script that expects to write back info under the Steam directory? And fails with a different copy on your machine. I use a custom .sh script "windows batch file" to launch my copies of KSP. So I started Keeping a copy of it and the settings cfg . I just copy them in to a new install and never have a problem or see the start up nag screen. Now if I screwed up  and launched clean from steam or a copy I made without the config. The new game would hang and not launch. But then ALL my other copies I run would default back to base resolution and settings until I go delete that system file.  Now since 1.4.0 launched I cant delete that file without it writing it back. So your not alone man and maybe it's not a big conspiracy. But it's at least extremely bad programming. Problem is if your running Windows 10 . I'm not sure that's not your bigger problem ! Good luck 

       

Edited March 18, 2018 by Delbrutis
spell check whats excrementsty mean?

[Warzouz]

The store was also released in a hurry. So hurry that I bought the wrong version of the expansion (the DL version was hidden below, and I didn't saw it).

Now the store is fixed, but the store support don't want to switch the product.

[Temeter]

15 hours ago, TK421d said:

i'm overall unimpressed with it, and EXTREMELY dissapointed with the steam version having DRM, it will only work in the stock steam directory, so i cannot play my modded installs.

 

i'm refunding it since the parts wont even load anyway.

Yeah, there are reasons to be disappointed about the Update/DLC's stage, but stop spreading that stupid misinformation. There is no DRM.

You probably got older mods installed that break with the update or so.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Temeter