steve_v Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Terwin said: Have you ever had a real Heisen-bug? one that changes when you turn on logging? Ooh, me me me! I've seen these things more often than I like, in both software and hardware systems. Races that the additional cpu cycles consumed by logging processes break, noise voltages that vanish into the input impedance of your instruments, equipment that works flawlessly as soon as you remove the covers to get at test points... These things are not rare, and not the exclusive domain of PC-coders. 4 hours ago, Terwin said: Tell me, how many CNC systems have you seen that sell for less than $100 and will run on any custom computer you build for it, with no requirements more stringent than 'CPU at least as powerful as computers made at the start of this decade'? As much as I would love to continue this argument, digressing into SCADA systems running on commodity hardware, operators installing spotify on CNC control machines, IT minions swapping out hardware under automation networks without warning... I think it's time to get back to the topic at hand, and to point out the large grey pachyderm in the room: The bug that is attracting all the heat here is not some hard to reproduce end-user-configuration-dependent transient anomaly. It's quite the opposite - as far as I can glean from the forums, the majority of users here are experiencing it. The same may be said for my other favourite 1.4.x bug as well. Edited April 23, 2018 by steve_v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passinglurker Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Gargamel said: But this is just a game people. And it is for that reason it isn't too much to ask that the product ordered be delivered without obvious flaws, and with a pleasing level of polish, cause it not a big deal right? so it shouldn't be hard for salaried professionals right? "It's just a game" works when justifying how long development may take one can always play something else, but it does not excuse poor quality work upon delivery if they can't keep up they should dedicate more time and resources, if they don't have the resources then they should give up and end development before they break something that simple. Either way no one should be buying anything from a company where this is the new normal until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvinKosh Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 There are a lot of lines of code in one game. The reason why a game goes through testing and gets bug fixes is because mistakes are inevitably made. You know how you build and launch a rocket in KSP only to realise during re-entry 'whoops, forgot the parachutes' and have to revert back to vehicle assembly? That's how broken code can get sometimes. Except instead of missing parachutes, you've made a rookie mistakes like forgotting to invert some piece of logic somewhere. Games like KSP don't just get a 1.0 release and done these days, they're improved upon after release (it has to be the case with lots of other developers doing the same thing) so they are constantly changing. Sometimes... that process of change doesn't go so well. ;/ But lessons are learned, in much the same way that rocket engineers learn from failed missions. It can't all be good, but that doesn't mean it's all going to be bad either. With all that said, however, one of the criticisms I have about how 1.4 was handled is that there was no way for us to be involved in the process of testing it. Might not have changed the release date at all, but it would have meant that a lot of bugs would have gone on the bug tracker earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Thread summary so far: 1) update late 2) want update 3) squad bad 4) philosophical discussion on QA 5) go to 1 i love this thread. Edited April 23, 2018 by Wallygator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_v Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Wallygator said: 5) go to 1 Velociraptors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeronRocketry Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, steve_v said: Velociraptors! “Where did this bug come from? Let’s look at the security footage.” Velociraptor leaps onto the keyboard and dances around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, MarvinKosh said: Games like KSP don't just get a 1.0 release and done these days, they're improved upon after release (it has to be the case with lots of other developers doing the same thing) so they are constantly changing. Sometimes... that process of change doesn't go so well. ;/ But lessons are learned, in much the same way that rocket engineers learn from failed missions. It can't all be good, but that doesn't mean it's all going to be bad either. As I said before, KSP is like a vintage operating system (in size and complexity). Features as added as the current ones are stable, but now and then a new feature breaks a stable feature, and then we have a patch issued. The usual life-cycle of a nowadays game *DOES NOT APPLY* (and I wondering if someone at TTI's HQ is reading this and learning something). A main stream game usually are developed for years (two is usual, but some ones took 10 - I'm looking at you, Last Guardian) in closed quarters, being published only when someone decides it's time to go gold. It's essentially a Cascade Development Process from the user's point of view (internally, God knows what goes). Once it hits the Box Office, it's a product, with a product's life-cycle. KSP is like Windows on this point: it's a Featured Driven Development (anyone knows RUP?). There's no way anyone but the biggest players could deliver such complexity in a one shot development process, so the features are delivered as soon as they are implemented. However, this leads to a problem: cash flow. Once a customer buys a version, it had paid for the features the product already have, but who pays for the new features? New customers. If by some reason these new customers declines in number, it affects directly the cash flow and, then, the capability to finance the resources to keep the development! The efforts being (fiercely) applied in some non-critical features (as Mission Builder and Localization) appears to corroborate my thesis: these guys are fighting for cash flow. We, current customers, are out of the cash flow. We already had given them the money, and the money was already been spent. So, given the choice between fixing a bug that affects a loyal customer (but that already has paid), and one the potentially increase the user base (what means *incoming*), it's easy to understand why the Management (probably TTI's management) are taking such decisions. What can be done? Essentially, what's being done: understanding that sometimes "things" happens, but actively complaining when something stupid happens due absolute lack of attention of the development team to us, current user base (being such lack of attention a demand of the management or not). The best and only way to help Squad to deliver a good product (or service perhaps?) is voting with our money. Things goes fine (or the finest it can be), we buy the DLCs and/or whatever they sell to finance the development. Things goes to the tubes? So the cash flow - we stop spending money with them. This is the only argument that Squad can use to counter-argue a short vision decision from the management: "You will loose more money on the long run than you will win in the short". Mainly because this is the only argument that really matters to Management: money Edited April 23, 2018 by Lisias bad grammar. X-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarbian Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 On 21/04/2018 at 4:16 PM, Errol said: I stand corrected. However, that is just a small discrepancy in the chronology of my post. My points still stand. Also.....the mass exodus was more of a gradual trickle, if I remember correctly. "gradual". aka "8 of us left on the same day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLN Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 On 21/04/2018 at 3:17 AM, sh1pman said: It’s not the “Forum”, just a couple of impatient players. I, for instance, don’t give a damn about update release dates (or mod update dates). It's out when it’s done, and my questions or demands are certainly not going to affect its readiness. I don't either, except when the game is completely broken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klgraham1013 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 hours ago, MarvinKosh said: The reason why a game goes through testing and gets bug fixes is because mistakes are inevitably made. Mistakes like simple config file typos that somehow weren't noticed? The missing IVA and fairing size problem were so obvious and such simple fixes. Seeing scepticism about QA quality is completely justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 36 minutes ago, sarbian said: "gradual". aka "8 of us left on the same day" Obviously some of us are missing some of the major pieces of the story. Mind filling in some of the details? Why did 8 leave at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said: Mistakes like simple config file typos that somehow weren't noticed? The missing IVA and fairing size problem were so obvious and such simple fixes. Seeing scepticism about QA quality is completely justified. It is indeed strange times when we find ourselves gathered around the campfire discussing the quality of a quality assurance process. When I say campfire I mean forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 On 4/20/2018 at 10:17 PM, sh1pman said: It’s not the “Forum”, just a couple of impatient players. And this is a problem. Believe me. The number of customers that complain are small compared with the customers that just go away. The complaining ones are the ones willing to stay, and since they are facing some problems to get what they want (stay), they complain in the hope of get things fixed. Happy people don't bother others because they are happy. Unhappy people does. And unhappy customers are customers going away (with their money). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Errol said: Obviously some of us are missing some of the major pieces of the story. Mind filling in some of the details? Why did 8 leave at the same time? Opportunity? Grievance? A confluence of many individual issues? No one actually knows. And at this point it’s water under the bridge so to speak. Best left alone from my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Errol said: Why did 8 leave at the same time? Google for it. What happened at that time leaved a lot of scars around here, and it's probable that the moderation would intervene to prevent a flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyko Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Gargamel said: This is one of the dumbest analogies I've ever read. The onus is on you for buying a car without a windshield, not the manufacturer. Note, I'm not calling you dumb, just the analogy. Like as @Kerbart said, if it was some part that was bad that you never noticed before purchase, it'd be a different story. If the main menu didn't work, then I can buy the windshield analogy. But then the fault is still your own for buying a lemon and knowing it's a lemon beforehand. ummm...I think the more appropriate analogy, since 1.3.1 had a "windshield", is that you took your car in for service and 3 hours later they returned your car to you and the windshield was missing If I knew about the bugs in MH/1.4.x I wouldn't have bought MH or updated. Edited April 23, 2018 by Tyko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klgraham1013 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Errol said: Obviously some of us are missing some of the major pieces of the story. Mind filling in some of the details? Why did 8 leave at the same time? Probably NDA. We may never know. Edited April 23, 2018 by klgraham1013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Lisias said: Google for it. What happened at that time leaved a lot of scars around here, and it's probable that the moderation would intervene to prevent a flame war. https://www.pcgamesn.com/logitech/redefining-immersion-logitech-g-s-wild-new-g560-light-and-sound-system Still not much information. And it does look like the forums have at least at one point attempted to suppress information about this. Which is odd/telling... Does anyone know if there is a list of which devs left at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyko Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Terwin said: Sure but manufacturing processes always run on exactly the same environment(aka the real world where Iron is always harder and heavier than aluminum, but aluminum cools faster because it is a better conductor), for software that can only happen when you provide the hardware as well(and keep it in a locked box that the users are not allowed to tinker with). How well would those 'consistent' manufacturing processes work if you had to ship the same manufacturing line to all factories, even though in some of those factories Aluminum is heavier than lead and harder than diamonds, but high-carbon steel has the consistency of tapioca pudding? This defense would apply if the errors were occurring on only Linux, or only with a certain NVidia graphics card. That's not the case though. Many of these errors were just missed in QA - typos, parts who's top nodes aren't centered, etc... This isn't a "it's hard to code across many platforms". This is "nobody took the time to load the game and try the parts before it launched". Things like the Tank offset issues were blatantly obvious within 5 minutes of loading and looking at the new parts. I'm still going to keep playing the game and still wait expectantly for updates. I'm not going to just wave this off as "coding is complicated" though. Squad didn't QA their product thoroughly and then failed to follow through on 2 successive point releases...that's just shoddy process...I expect individual devs put their heart and soul into the project. Something about their process is broken though. Edited April 23, 2018 by Tyko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I saw the light, I mean, read again some PMI essays. :-D Developing KSP is a *PROGRAM*, not a *PROJECT*. Any attempt to handle KSP as a Project will fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoToH Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Gargamel said: This is one of the dumbest analogies I've ever read. The onus is on you for buying a car without a windshield, not the manufacturer. Sure. Blame the customer is always smarter. 7 hours ago, Gargamel said: if it was some part that was bad that you never noticed before purchase, it'd be a different story. So we need to detect bugs in a software BEFORE purchasing that software. Nice. Or detect bugs in 1.4 BEFORE the 1.4 update was released. Let me print this thread and get my DeLorean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfox101 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Well it could be worse, if your in the UK you could bank with TSB - https://news.sky.com/story/tsb-data-breach-sees-customer-credited-with-13k-11343578 That's how not to upgrade software Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarbian Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, Errol said: Obviously some of us are missing some of the major pieces of the story. Mind filling in some of the details? Why did 8 leave at the same time? This was debated ad nauseam in the past. I replied because you made 2 post about the old team that amounts to rewriting history. We left way before the T2 deal and not one by one. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfox101 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I don't think people leaving team KSP is anybody's business, people change jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I've just found some of the old "debate" threads about this. Sorry about the mistakes my chronology. I realize there may be NDAs out there and such, however I will end off by adding a message to @SQUAD; Maybe a little more transparency would help dispell incorrect guesses about an obviously coloured past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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