Career mode: fixing what's broke

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

Big deal. This is really splitting hairs. Everything up to tier 4 is unlocked very quickly, as all cavemen can testify to. I've never had any problems because of the tech tree order.

27 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

But only on Eve, Kerbin, Tylo, and Laythe. And on all but Eve, you can usually jetpack jump so long as your lander's squat enough. And you're not landing on Eve (or Tylo or Laythe) with tier 4 parts or less you're good enough to figure out how to get by without the ladder

Both legit points for experienced players, but I do think its important to be inclusive with all this and think of everyone's experience, new players and old. Of course some of us can blast through half the tech tree in a few hours, but what's really the most sensible progression of parts? What provides the best slate of strategic avenues for repeat playability? Lights are really handy not just for night landings but right from getting into orbit to see what you're doing when you climb out and EVA report and reset experiments. Is there any harm in moving them up to level 45? Ladders are especially important for new players on those first few landings. We've all gotten used to Jet packs but I remember the internal pain after my first glorious mun landing knocking my lander over just trying to climb back into the cabin. We're not trying to frustrate people, moving the ladders up just seems sensible. 
 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[GeneCash]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:21 PM, Pthigrivi said:

These contracts could either be constantly available, or as I'd prefer, active automatically with their advances becoming available with sufficient reputation. In either case they should be constantly visible in Mission Control so players at least knew they are there

Oh heck yeah. Right now, in all the time I've played since career mode came out, I've gotten contracts to go to Duna TWICE, and NEVER anything beyond.

I just recently got a "Sentinel" contract and I was so surprised I didn't even know how to do it.

This would give you goals to shoot for - "oh yeah, you know... I've never gone to Tylo... let's do that" and the "deadline bonus" would make it even better.

I'm not a fan of the "tech tree paths" though, as I want to do it all, with planes, probes, and manned.

What drives me NUTS about the tech tree is IT IGNORES COMPLEXITY. Wheels are way far down the list, but you have rockets right off? And you're expected to tool around all the KSC biomes for cheap science, but you don't get wheels? You're supposed to land on things, but you don't get ladders & landing gear?

You should get small simple rockets like the Spark/Terrier/Flea/Reliant before the Swivel/Aerospike/Mainsail. Why do you get a complex gimballed Swivel before the simpler Reliant? And obviously, probes should come just before manned capsules.

Right now I play career by just hitting the "all technology" cheat button immediately, so you can see how much I hate it.

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Both legit points for experienced players, but I do think its important to be inclusive with all this and think of everyone's experience, new players and old. Of course some of us can blast through half the tech tree in a few hours, but what's really the most sensible progression of parts? What provides the best slate of strategic avenues for repeat playability? Lights are really handy not just for night landings but right from getting into orbit to see what you're doing when you climb out and EVA report and reset experiments. Is there any harm in moving them up to level 45? Ladders are especially important for new players on those first few landings. We've all gotten used to Jet packs but I remember the internal pain after my first glorious mun landing knocking my lander over just trying to climb back into the cabin. We're not trying to frustrate people, moving the ladders up just seems sensible. 
 

Sadly when I was new, all parts were available and there were no science points to be gotten so I have no idea how I'd have done.

And to be clear, I was responding to the idea that the tech tree isn't "fine", which I think it is. It does it's job of giving you a reason to go out and do stuff, while not being too much in your way to progressing. I never said it was perfect and don't think it even can be. There are so many things that so many people think need to move to lower tiers, that a quick drive around KSC would unlock most every part if we followed everybody's advice. That said, I can see moving the basic ladder, a lamp (which are sorely in need of a reskinning a la the Thumper), and some landing gear (but not those micro ones. The 2nd tier of legs that actually serve a purpose) a bit up the chain, perhaps swapping them for something else so you don't unlock 20 parts all at once and then have a tier with a single thing in it later on.

[Pthigrivi]

9 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Sadly when I was new, all parts were available and there were no science points to be gotten so I have no idea how I'd have done.

And to be clear, I was responding to the idea that the tech tree isn't "fine", which I think it is. It does it's job of giving you a reason to go out and do stuff, while not being too much in your way to progressing. I never said it was perfect and don't think it even can be. There are so many things that so many people think need to move to lower tiers, that a quick drive around KSC would unlock most every part if we followed everybody's advice. That said, I can see moving the basic ladder, a lamp (which are sorely in need of a reskinning a la the Thumper), and some landing gear (but not those micro ones. The 2nd tier of legs that actually serve a purpose) a bit up the chain, perhaps swapping them for something else so you don't unlock 20 parts all at once and then have a tier with a single thing in it later on.

Its true the Tech tree does function and all it just needs a little love. Im going through it in google sheets right now and its not totally without rhyme or reason. For instance we can move planes and probes up to level 20, but probably not level 5. Its important for players to learn about staging and antennae before they start using planes and probes I think.

If I wanted to mod my own tech tree to test it out, how would I go about that? anyone know?

Edited May 8, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[klgraham1013]

12 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

But only on Eve, Kerbin, Tylo, and Laythe. And on all but Eve, you can usually jetpack jump so long as your lander's squat enough. And you're not landing on Eve (or Tylo or Laythe) with tier 4 parts or less you're good enough to figure out how to get by without the ladder 

And regarding prices I've never, ever, ever shied away from putting any part on any ship because of price. Maybe on all-settings-hardest or something but even then, I'd just buy the part and make sure I could recover it.

It's okay that we haven't invented ladders.  We've got jetpacks! 

12 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

And regarding prices I've never, ever, ever shied away from putting any part on any ship because of price. Maybe on all-settings-hardest or something but even then, I'd just buy the part and make sure I could recover it.

Maybe that speaks about a bigger problem with the game as a whole.

13 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

Big deal. This is really splitting hairs. Everything up to tier 4 is unlocked very quickly, as all cavemen can testify to. I've never had any problems because of the tech tree order.

So...order doesn't matter because the game is to easy.  As with cost, maybe this speaks to a bigger problem with the game.

13 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

This is really splitting hairs.

If you can't get the simple things right...

Edited May 8, 2018 by klgraham1013

[Mr. Peabody]

9 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

 

So...order doesn't matter because the game is to easy.  As with cost, maybe this speaks to a bigger problem with the game.

*facepalm*  After tier 4 tech nodes cost many more science points, so that really balances out well. The game is not too easy. You do have to work hard with a good strategy to obtain the needed science points. I'm just saying that any player with a reasonable amount of career experience should knock out tier 4 in under a week. I have done so in only 5 total flights. (#1 sub-orbital, #2 HKO, KSC biome farming, #4 Mun flyby, #5 Minmus flyby or landing)

[Pthigrivi]

No need to be snarky, guys. I think we can all agree the tech tree is functional but not perfect.

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

It's okay that we haven't invented ladders.  We've got jetpacks! 

I understand the logic, but you understand that argument could be made of almost the entire tech tree? Does your ideal tech tree have all structural elements, batteries, landing gear, science stuff, antennas, etc in the very first node because we had them before space flight?

[pandaman]

IRL the whole 'Tech Tree' thing was pretty much unlocked before the Moon landings.  Since then, with a few exceptions of course, almost everything has been a development or refinement of existing tech.

Maybe the tech tree should start with the most basic of everything already available and you can then unlock new variants along each 'line'...

Eg.  Taking Fins ad a simple exsmple...

Start with the basic fin. And progress along it's branch to get bigger ones, then steerable ones etc.

 

 

[klgraham1013]

4 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I understand the logic, but you understand that argument could be made of almost the entire tech tree? Does your ideal tech tree have all structural elements, batteries, landing gear, science stuff, antennas, etc in the very first node because we had them before space flight?

I don't think so.  There would probably be several structural nodes ending in early mid game.

A basic ladder would be in tier 2 along with a basic wheel.

There's a lot that could be done to improve it.  The struggle I'm having is a sense of futility any time I post in the suggestions sub-forum.  This game really could have been so much more.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, klgraham1013 said:

The struggle I'm having is a sense of futility any time I post in the suggestions sub-forum.  This game really could have been so much more.

Like banging your head on a wall? I had that when career was first implemented, back when there was a chance it would be changed. Nobody listened to me either.

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know.

[linuxgurugamer]

10 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Its true the Tech tree does function and all it just needs a little love. Im going through it in google sheets right now and its not totally without rhyme or reason. For instance we can move planes and probes up to level 20, but probably not level 5. Its important for players to learn about staging and antennae before they start using planes and probes I think.

If I wanted to mod my own tech tree to test it out, how would I go about that? anyone know?

Take a look at Yongtech tech tree ....

I forget the full name, but it's designed to let you make your own tech trees

[klgraham1013]

16 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know.

We both are.

[Corona688]

Lots of good ideas here.  I agree that working with the system is the best way to get changes that actually happen.  Your suggestion for "milestones" I agree with completely - right now the game rewards you for random exploration but many playstyles aren't that random.

A few criticisms.

1. One reason the contracts are so sparse right now is the game tries not to give you contracts too far above your reach.  I remember the first game with contracts - after I landed on the moon it suddenly wanted Duna and only Duna, no matter my budget and tech limitations, and I'd lose reputation for not doing so.  Might integrating the milestones this way just be the same thing again?
2. Landscape and structure development seems to be extremely difficult after the departure of the core team.  I wouldn't hope for much there.
3. We already get biome info with KerbNet, it just never occurs to anyone to use it.
   1. Those "take readings at points X, Y, Z" contracts are pointless right now -- how about "find 3 biomes near X"?  Suddenly contracts help you earn science and kerbnet becomes essential.
4. Maneuver  nodes could use a little love, but a simple "make the current vector bigger" control would solve 90% of their fiddliness.  It could be shift-scrollwheel.  Without the shift, scrollwheel should do NOTHING to maneuver nodes, that conflicts with map view and ruins my intercepts all the time!
5. Delta-V read outs are Not.  Going.  To.  Happen.  Squad backed themselves into a corner - they won't ever give away for free what they used to sell (kerbaledu).  Plus, any features implemented in mods probably won't happen for the opposite reason - hard to sell anything you can get for free.

On 5/5/2018 at 2:21 PM, Pthigrivi said:

1) Make it so strategies are more than 1 time use so they can invest at one level, drop it, and come back to it later at a higher level if they wish.

You can?  I do.  It costs, but should.

On 5/5/2018 at 2:21 PM, Pthigrivi said:

1) Give Milestone contracts calendar based bonuses--ie, if you get to the Mun or to Duna before X date you receive World First bonus rewards. 

The deadlines in contracts right now are obvious placeholders.  Years, to rescue someone in orbit?  Putting anything better in there would go a long way to implementing this without even that new feature.

On 5/5/2018 at 2:21 PM, Pthigrivi said:

4) Add life-support with a toggle. With a simplified habitation mechanic I think USI-LS is basically ready for stock. 

I've always liked the simplification "kerbals eat and breathe RCS fuel".  That requires no new parts or new kinds of resources, making it simple enough to actually toggle.  It's also present in EVA and most existing ships already, making it possible to toggle without killing everyone.  It's also mineable.

[KSK]

19 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

We both are.

*Raises a weary hand.*

The Suggestions and Development Discussion subforum has long since outlived it’s original purpose. I don’t recall the last time I saw a developer on here, let alone the last time a suggestion was actually picked up.

Mind you, this is a fantastic subforum for rehashing the arguments for and against multiplayer every four months or so. So there’s that.

 

[Corona688]

5 minutes ago, KSK said:

The Suggestions and Development Discussion subforum has long since outlived it’s original purpose. I don’t recall the last time I saw a developer on here, let alone the last time a suggestion was actually picked up.

Control-from-here in action group.  Took several remindings but it got picked up.

"change everything" is not a useful suggestion unless it was already on their menu.  I doubt they'll ever take an entire, whole, far-reaching suggestion, not unless the person that made it becomes one of their devs.

I think there's real limits in what they're able to implement now that the old team is gone, also.

So if these big discussions boil down to simple things which can be implemented, that's their use I think.  If they just circle around "more of X", "multiplayer Darn it", "change everything" etc they're not useful.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Corona688

[Pthigrivi]

23 hours ago, Corona688 said:

1. One reason the contracts are so sparse right now is the game tries not to give you contracts too far above your reach.  I remember the first game with contracts - after I landed on the moon it suddenly wanted Duna and only Duna, no matter my budget and tech limitations, and I'd lose reputation for not doing so.  Might integrating the milestones this way just be the same thing again?

I think this is legit. I wouldn't want to break it up or linearize it too much though. Perhaps you start with a Kerbin tab that includes Minmus and the Mun and once you land on one of the moons or gain enough rep the other planets' tabs open up?
 

23 hours ago, Corona688 said:

3. We already get biome info with KerbNet, it just never occurs to anyone to use it.
           1. Those "take readings at points X, Y, Z" contracts are pointless right now -- how about "find 3 biomes near X"?  Suddenly contracts help you earn science and kerbnet becomes essential.

Love the second bullet point. And its great having biomes in Kerbnet for landing but man it would be helpful to see it in map-mode so you can swivel it around and see what the hell you're doing. The point is to be able to make global strategic decisions about landing sites, weighing the cost-benefit of landing where the best resources and rewards are and seeing the whole picture is critical to that.
 

23 hours ago, Corona688 said:

5. Delta-V read outs are Not.  Going.  To.  Happen.  Squad backed themselves into a corner - they won't ever give away for free what they used to sell (kerbaledu).  Plus, any features implemented in mods probably won't happen for the opposite reason - hard to sell anything you can get for free.

Here's the thing though, thus far the game has essentially been designed around getting to the moons and not farther. That's how the tech tree is scaled, that's what the flight-tools are tailored to, and surprise surprise 90% of players never go farther than that. If though we are really investing in helping players go interplanetary and exploring the Kerbol system they absolutely need access to dV and transfer window information within the UI. Guess and test is fine for getting to orbit, or to the surface of the Mun even, but asking players to land on Tylo and return by eyeballing is clearly inviting more frustration than most players are willing to endure. And the "there's a mod for that" argument doesn't hold much water for me. They implement stuff from mods all the time, including the most recent DLC, and console players don't have access to mods. Squad just needs to get over this and throw a bone the vast majority of players who don't feel like breaking immersion by opening up a browser to look up ejection angles and dV budgets and draining and refilling all their tanks stage by stage to do the manual math. This really should have happened a long time ago.
 

23 hours ago, Corona688 said:

You can?  I do.  It costs, but should.

Oh good! You couldn't before and I guess I hadn't noticed the change.
 

23 hours ago, Corona688 said:

I've always liked the simplification "kerbals eat and breathe RCS fuel".  That requires no new parts or new kinds of resources, making it simple enough to actually toggle.  It's also present in EVA and most existing ships already, making it possible to toggle without killing everyone.  It's also mineable.

Have you used USI-LS? Its pretty solid. You want it simple enough that players don't have to worry about it early on and complex enough that its a fun puzzle later. You also need to have the UI tools to see how your crews are doing so you don't send them off to starve. I think USI does accomplishes this pretty well at this point.
 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[Pthigrivi]

22 hours ago, Corona688 said:

"change everything" is not a useful suggestion unless it was already on their menu.  I doubt they'll ever take an entire, whole, far-reaching suggestion, not unless the person that made it becomes one of their devs.

I think there's real limits in what they're able to implement now that the old team is gone, also.

So if these big discussions boil down to simple things which can be implemented, that's their use I think.  If they just circle around "more of X", "multiplayer Darn it", "change everything" etc they're not useful.

I think its fair to say that we, not being employees, have very little knowledge of what Squad's future capabilities are. Time will tell, its just not something we can possibly know. I know they do check in on this forum from time to time (probably some bemusement and eyerolling), but I am under zero illusion they would just take this thread point-by-point and implement it. I just like games and game design and its fun to think about and if it all goes into a general sense of "hey these kinds of things could be cool" that's completely fine with me.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[Corona688]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

Guess and test is fine for getting to orbit, or to the surface of the Mun even, but asking players to land on Tylo and return by eyeballing is clearly inviting more frustration than most players are willing to endure.

I agree entirely, just don't think it's liable to happen.

Quote

And the "there's a mod for that" argument is bunk. They implement stuff from mods all the time, including the most recent DLC, and console players don't have access to mods.

They recently duplicated a mod feature by accident (improved ship naming), implemented in a way almost identical to the mod.  I don't think they'd have done that if they knew.  Theoretically the new EULA has them covered anyway - that's what I really think it's about, not spying - but nobody really wants to test that.  When they became aware of the duplication, they immediately apologized and got permission.

Historically when Squad hires developers their mods have been incorporated in-game, such as Nova's and Skunky's.  This is a friendlier approach than some - write a suggestion letter to Hasbro and they'll destroy it unread and make sure you know, so you can't ever sue them for accidentally using your idea.  But I think this means that getting a mod integrated means getting the modder hired.  Best hope our favorite modders are ready, willing, and have complete ownership of their own projects.  Stock KAC is the dream!

Quote

Squad just needs to get over this and throw a bone the vast majority of players who don't feel like breaking immersion by opening up a browser to look up ejection angles and dV budgets and draining and refilling all their tanks stage by stage to do the manual math. This really should have happened a long time ago.

I agree there's tons of reasons to include it.  I stopped doing trial-and-error a while ago myself.  But from a business standpoint it's pretty sticky to do so.

Quote

Have you used USI-LS? Its pretty solid.

Can I just install the LS part or do I need the entire thing?  What will happen to an existing save?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Corona688

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, Corona688 said:

Historically when Squad hires developers their mods have been incorporated in-game, such as Nova's and Skunky's.  This is a friendlier approach than some - write a suggestion letter to Hasbro and they'll destroy it unread and make sure you know, so you can't ever sue them for accidentally using your idea.  But I think this means that getting a mod integrated means getting the modder hired.  Best hope our favorite modders are ready, willing, and have complete ownership of their own projects.  Stock KAC is the dream!

Yeah so I guess it depends on the feature. All this legal rigamarole is bananas to me but I get why they need it. Trigger and Roverdude are already employees so maybe the transition would be smoother there? 
 

1 hour ago, Corona688 said:

Can I just install the LS part or do I need the entire thing?  What will happen to an existing save?

Yeah there's a stand alone LS mod, MKS is way more involved than I have time for (honestly I spend too much time kerballing as is). Obviously I would copy my save first. The way USI works you have a 15 day grace period before anything bad happens, after which the default consequence is they go on strike and wont eva, run experiments or fly the ship (essentially become tourists) until you dock with a vessel with supplies on it. If you have active flights more than 15 days out from Kerbin I would switch off all the consequences and just get used to the mechanics until your vessels are properly outfitted. And if you plan on using the Habitation component definitely grab SSPXR. God damn Nertea's work is pretty. 

(It says 1.3 but the latest release is for 1.4.1)

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Pthigrivi

[Corona688]

24 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Roverdude are already employees so maybe the transition would be smoother there? 

If Roverdude's an employee already, stock life support is probably just a matter of time :)

[nightingale]

44 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

If Roverdude's an employee already, stock life support is probably just a matter of time

But JPLRepo maintains TAC-LS...  so maybe we can get both in stock?  And the rest of the USI catalog?  Kerbal Alarm Clock?  Definitely going to need ResearchBodies too.

Although many modders were hired as part of buying their mods and integrating into stock, just as many were hired simply for their experience.  The business side of Squad/T2 is what's going to drive what features go into KSP/DLCs, so as much as those Squad developers might want to implement their passion projects into stock KSP, it's not something I'd ever hold my breath on as a player.

[Corona688]

10 minutes ago, nightingale said:

Although many modders were hired as part of buying their mods and integrating into stock, just as many were hired simply for their experience.

Not saying they were only hired for mods of course!  They didn't just happen to have mods, they had the knack and enthusiasm necessary for the job.

Quote

The business side of Squad/T2 is what's going to drive what features go into KSP/DLCs, so as much as those Squad developers might want to implement their passion projects into stock KSP, it's not something I'd ever hold my breath on as a player.

Rather the wrong way around.  That Squad hires someone indicates they may (not must, to be sure) be interested in said project.  And with KSP going to console, they've got a lot more reason to do so than before, they can't rely on mods to improve the player experience any more.

It would also be a waste of resources to have access to stuff and not use it.  They can't grab the KerbalEdu stuff since that already has a price tag, but something from the library of a coder they've already hired?  (And who knows whatever private agreement.)

Edited May 10, 2018 by Corona688

[Pthigrivi]

11 minutes ago, nightingale said:

But JPLRepo maintains TAC-LS...  so maybe we can get both in stock?  And the rest of the USI catalog?  Kerbal Alarm Clock?  Definitely going to need ResearchBodies too.

Although many modders were hired as part of buying their mods and integrating into stock, just as many were hired simply for their experience.  The business side of Squad/T2 is what's going to drive what features go into KSP/DLCs, so as much as those Squad developers might want to implement their passion projects into stock KSP, it's not something I'd ever hold my breath on as a player.

Nightingale why you gotta crush my spirit with your cold hard facts of life? 

[nightingale]

21 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

Rather the wrong way around.  That Squad hires someone indicates they may (not must, to be sure) be interested in said project.

Speaking from experience, it really is the exception with the ones that you mentioned (+ Arsonide) where they were compensated for their mods + hired to maintain and integrate said mods into stock.  Many others were brought in to help with crunch time (I was brought in pretty much via a referral from NathanKell, I don't know if Nestor initially even knew what the scope of my mods were).

21 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

And with KSP going to console, they've got a lot more reason to do so than before, they can't rely on mods to improve the player experience any more.

It's really more of a business strategy question.  Will adding features (from mods or otherwise) drive new sales (my opinion is no)?  If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say the sound strategy is to port in the 1.3.x updates for localisation (new markets, more customers) and 1.4.x + MH (monetizing existing customer base).  Given that it's a separate studio doing the actual work on the port, the only way they are getting stuff from modderstaff is if it comes in through PC releases - so that'll take a while of catch up.

21 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

It would also be a waste of resources to have access to stuff and not use it.

Hehe, is that not the definition of a corporation?  In all seriousness though we're at the stage in KSP where DLC is going to be the driver for future development - it'll start with a business plan and only then will they look at if there is external assets that could be utilized.  But I think we can both guess how the player base would react to being sold mods they already get for free as a stock DLC to be able to say we're unlikely to see another FinePrint situation.

21 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

They can't grab the KerbalEdu stuff since that already has a price tag, but something from the library of a coder they've already hired?  (And who knows whatever private agreement.)

Can't comment on KerbalEDU, but many of the staff's mods are licensed in such a way to make it non-trivial to pull it into a closed source application, especially where there are multiple contributors (forked projects, even a pull request).  It's the downside to Squad having a very open strategy around mods (and for any EULA fear-mongerers out there who want to challenge that comment, first go check out Paradox's mod licensing, it basically reads as "you can't release it under any license because we own any mods you want to have on our platforms").

41 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Nightingale why you gotta crush my spirit with your cold hard facts of life? 

Because I also once made a wish that career could be fixed.  Then I got jaded.