Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Kerbolitto]

1 minute ago, hoioh said:

Just returned home from a 3 week trip camping in France. Might return to this very soon, but right now I'm just tired from the 2 days worth of driving home

Cool where did you go =)

[hoioh]

Just now, Kerbolitto said:

Cool where did you go =)

Rocamadour, and a bunch of other places in the midi pireneés and finished off in the vicinty of Cognac (yes we brought a couple bottles) and finally had a hotel night near Arras.

I love the midi pireneés area as well as the area between Nice and Lyon, which is where we started our exploration of France 7 years ago.

Mostly I love the way the French are still proud of their craft, the artesonal ones, I've visited smiths that still hand forge knives from old ww1 steel agricultural machines, the way every (proper) bakery bakes their own bread every day, the arts of saussige making, wine making, cheese making, the shops at the farms, the lot of it. That's something we don't really have in Holland and I love it! And the results of all that craftmanship, most of which you really can only get locally and nowhere else.

[Death Engineering]

21 hours ago, hoioh said:

Just returned home from a 3 week trip camping in France. Might return to this very soon, but right now I'm just tired from the 2 days worth of driving home

Three weeks? Sounds like some serious camping! I think we're still waiting for the first completed mission, anyways.    

My own attempt has stalled due to problems with my installation. I'll start having more time for KSP'ing next week so looking forward to re-engaging this challenge with a current KSP version and better selection of mods.

In other news.. I've started frameworks for two new challenges in the "Doing it [alternate-reality] Style" genre. Soon^tm .

 

[hoioh]

Maybe this has already been asked, but am I allowed to launch life support supplies separately, outside of NPM? For example along with a crew shuttle?

It would make a couple tons of difference.

 

I'm asking because:

A: I can launch crew separately, but they don't have mass, so who cares?

B: We're allowed to refill LS on a round trip shuttle, which could be done using an LKO base supplied from the surface by a separate shuttle service that wouldn't count towards NPM?

C: However, when using the ore analog it cannot be mined for and would count towards NPM, so there's that...

[sturmhauke]

7 hours ago, hoioh said:

Maybe this has already been asked, but am I allowed to launch life support supplies separately, outside of NPM? For example along with a crew shuttle?

Nope. Seems to me the point is to send up your crew right before a transfer window rather than have them live in orbit for years, so as to save on life support. But the life support stuff has to be sent up with the regularly scheduled launches.

On 7/8/2018 at 7:24 PM, Death Engineering said:

Rules

Launch Vehicle

• Any type of shuttle can be used to deliver crew to LKO and there is no limit on how many crew shuttle missions can be launched, however only crew may be launched on these missions; no fuel or any other supplies may be transferred on crew launches. 

[hoioh]

On 9/23/2018 at 7:38 PM, sturmhauke said:

Nope. Seems to me the point is to send up your crew right before a transfer window rather than have them live in orbit for years, so as to save on life support. But the life support stuff has to be sent up with the regularly scheduled launches.

Thanks for that, made it clear I needed to bring some LS supplies on the SLV and count them towards NPM, but only bring the supplies, no parts, that would be wasteful.
And with that and the decission to go nuclear I've managed to complete my planning phase and can now proceed to the actualy flying something for a change phase!

Here's a link to an Imgur album that contains a ton of KVV-screenshots and some accompanying shots of my excel: https://imgur.com/a/9YJBnxW

The excel is also freely available for download here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/udp9kss028884u7/Duna planning - 2.xlsx?dl=0
I recommend not to mess with the formula's, just input the desired NPM in the green box at the top of the Launching sheet to see the rollout schedule and some other numbers change. Also the big modular parts field works by multiplying the amount of each part you've selected by the weight you've put in the field on the left, use at your own pleasure. The other pages of the sheet contain a load of info about LS parts and other parts. The score page I've used to detail some of my mission goals and some other handy to have info. If there is interest for such a thing I can spend some time to make it more user friendly and available as a Google-Doc.

And now for a screenshot of the parts that will travel on my first SLV (more in the Imgur album):

[Death Engineering]

Duna Space Station and Interplanetary Transport

Well, I managed to repair the KSP build enough to continue my challenge entry! Had to go back a few saves to find an unbroken save, but better than starting over.

In game date is Year 5 Day 16 and all safety requirements ("Backup plan", "Duna Space Station", "Duna Space Bus", and "Positive uplink") have been achieved. Out of the initial five crew landed on Duna, two remain on the surface along with three new crew. Next Duna transit window will bring another surface module (Science rover), another supply drop and an ISRU upgrade for the Duna Space Station.

A Minmus mining rig is also in place for refueling Kerbin orbit spacecraft with an upgraded model being prepared for Ike mining on a future launch. Long term plans include a Duna surface hydroponic life support module, Kerbin space station and a Duna research drone. 

Always welcoming new participants or mission updates. See you on Duna!  

 

[Kerbolitto]

I know I should continue this challenge, but I'm being quite lazy now :p

I'm still at the point of sending a food-rescue mission to Duna before hohmann transfer.. Would be cool to see what others are up to !

[hoioh]

So, I was going to type up a whole stroy line surrounding this, but then I got back into a 40hr work schedule and that, I think, is permanently out the window now.

Giving that up did allow me to launch my first craft for this mission though:

 

I've made a separate playlist for these, but I'll simply post each video here as I publish them.

The playlist link can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLlQala-o_1MSiviuu26Fg/playlists

[Death Engineering]

On 10/21/2018 at 11:33 AM, hoioh said:

Giving that up did allow me to launch my first craft for this mission though:

Cool! Far out once-around to landing approach. 

[Death Engineering]

Surface Science Rover

It is Year 6 Day 291 and the 'Elcano' stage of the mission is underway! With four crew in the science rover plus twenty more in habitat landers the Mission Value points are racking up. Next launches will include surface greenhouse modules, supplies and more habitat landers. 

Expanding the Duna space station with ISRU upgrade

The ISRU upgrade was included on the surface supply module launch and transferred by the fourth deep space tug in operation. Once the ISRU operation around Duna is ready, the tugs will refuel and return to Kerbin to pick up more cargo. Minmus/Kerbin orbit ISRU will facilitate refueling the space tugs allowing for rapid expansion of the Duna outpost after Year 10 or nearly self-sustaining outpost operation requiring only occasion life support launches.

Deep Space Taxi returning home

On the return leg from Duna, the DST comes home under remote control. In Kerbin orbit, the DST is refueled and will be used to carry cargo out to Duna where it will await the first of the post-challenge Duna return windows. 

Four crew ascending to Duna station

Emergency evac! Due to an error in habitat life support, the water splitter left the outpost dangerously low on water! Four crew returned to the Duna station leaving one crew remaining at the outpost. While awaiting supplies, there were only five crew on Duna but that was only for 165 days. Two supply modules and three habitat modules soon joined the outpost.

Ike's your buddy, Ike's your pal

Using Ike to enter Duna orbit and lower the Ap whenever possible keeps fuel reserves plentiful but takes more time. Considering the ban on aerobraking nuclear modules and the relatively low delta-v needs to push between Kerbin and Duna, conventional propulsion modules might actually make more sense. 

Another mission profile to be attempted will be using the space tugs to 'lob' cargo from Kerbin to Duna. Once at Duna, the cargo will either use conventional propulsion/aerobraking to enter Duna orbit or will aerocapture and land directly. Once 'lobbed', the space tug will about-face and return to Kerbin orbit for refueling.

Ten crew and supply module

Using the habitat modules on opposite ends of a supply module, all three can be transported train-style over short distances. This method of moving about the Duna surface will allow easy transit to the Duna ascent taxi and meeting up with the Elcano science rover later.

More pics here:

https://imgur.com/a/dAq554k

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Death Engineering
album

[jinnantonix]

I have been wanting to do a challenge involving life support, and have been playing around with TAC-LS.  This challenge looks like a great vehicle for this.  However I am not a big fan of part mods or config editing.  I am wondering, would it be feasible to do this challenge stock only parts , just adding life support?

[hoioh]

16 minutes ago, jinnantonix said:

I have been wanting to do a challenge involving life support, and have been playing around with TAC-LS.  This challenge looks like a great vehicle for this.  However I am not a big fan of part mods or config editing.  I am wondering, would it be feasible to do this challenge stock only parts , just adding life support?

It absolutely is! A stock install with only TAC-LS would serve you just fine for this challenge. It may make it a little bit harder, but all the parts you need are in the stock libraries in principle.

I don't, but I like playing around with a pile of mods. That's my choice though. You do you

I do belive Kerbolito does his mostly if not completely stock

Edited November 21, 2018 by hoioh

[Death Engineering]

8 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

I am wondering, would it be feasible to do this challenge stock only parts , just adding life support?

As @hoioh mentioned adding just LS mod only adds the life support containers/recyclers which would work fine.   I actually restarted an attempt using just USI LS and it seemed viable, but I did miss the larger crew quarter parts.

BTW installing mods is relatively easy and shouldn't require any config file editing. LS mods were the first mods I tried and rarely play without it even just for touring around the planets. 

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions!

[jinnantonix]

Thanks @Death Engineering, and @hoioh which parts mods would you recommend/approve?

Edited November 22, 2018 by jinnantonix

[hoioh]

@jinnantonix

Apart from TAC-LS, I would recommend getting kerbal engineer redux or Mechjeb to make it easier to plan your DV requirements. These mods provide readouts that show you exact numbers instantly without the need to calculate them for yourself. This makes planning this kind of mission a lot faster.

Personally I like the "near future" suite of mods (without the magic engines from the propulsion set of the suite) mostly the solar panels wih higher capacities to reduce part count, the larger nuclear engines and the nuclear reactors are good.

And on top of that I use "space-y" including the heavy lifters pack a lot for the larger tanks and engines, again to reduce part count with similar performance.

I'm also a great fan of "tweakscale" which allows you to resize a lot of parts. This doesn't make them better for the most part, but more usefull. An example would be a scaled up version of the medium landing gear to allow a stable position on the runway using extra large gear in the back while maintaining the ability to steer the nose where you want it to go.

 

On top of those I use a whole bunch of mods that provide different crew quarters and different/larger tanks. Such as "cryo engines" and "cryo tanks". I use RCS balancer to help in placement of RCS ports and there's just so much I don't even realize off the top of my head after playing modded for at least the past 4 years.

There's a nice spreadsheet in one of the pinned threads of the mods and add-on releases topic to help you find the finest of mods and the right versions for your installation.

Before you install anything into the gamedata folder though: make a copy of the KSP folder and do it there, play from there too! Automatic updates can severely screw over your install just at the moment you've got it working just right

[Death Engineering]

11 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

Thanks [...] which parts mods would you recommend/approve?

I also like the Nertea near-future parts but currently using only the Stockalike Station Parts Expansion Redux pack. It has a great suite of parts for crew habitats and command pods including some inflatable/deployable parts for high-crew accommodation.

Mechjeb and others never caught my eye. I guess I've been playing long enough that I can build without hard data for delta-v capabilities but that's probably not the best (read: time-saving) way to play. I think the not-being-totally-sure about a mission adds some challenge and sometimes makes me have to adjust a mission plan when a burn comes in a little short. One little gem I've really learned to love is Kerbal Flight Data. It adds several HUD readouts that make flight a lot easier and prevents have to toggle map/flight mode constantly. 

Sorry, Squad, but stock KSP is fugly. I've tried most of the common visual packs but recommend Spectra for its mix of beauty and performance. However, in my current DOMA challenge attempt, I'm using the Stock Visual Enhancements/Stock Visual Terrain from Galileo which is also great. At the very least, add Scatterer. 

As far as the "approve" part, the only mods that are explicitly banned are Extraplanetary Launchpads, Ground Contruction/Global Construction. This challenge is based on a nearly 6 year old challenge which included a rule banning these types of mods and I've tried to adhere to the original challenge as close as possible.

I'm done working for the year as of this weekend so I'll have loads of time for KSP'ing again so if you have any questions or updates on your attempt drop a post anytime!

A little over a third of the way around Duna and only 60km from the main outpost! Once there, one crew will move over to the science rover and continue to an anomaly in the north west... something on the surface has been reported by the Duna space station crew that resembles a very familiar face..

 

 

[dire]

Very interesting challenge. Am starting my first trial runs of my SLV, am thinking about rating it for 62 tons but honestly it's much easier to take a rocket built for 62 tons and downrate it to 31 tons than it is to try to take a 31-ton design and scale it up to 62 tons xD Currently rocket masses 340 tons plus payload, and 195 tons of it is designed for soft landing. With 62 tons rated (plus a little bit to simulate a fairing) it's got 3900 dv, which should let me do some interesting things in LKO if I am careful with my ascent profile.

I did have some questions @Death Engineering, although I think you've already answered most of them.

* If I want to integrate part of my SLV into a Duna stage I have to count the mass of that part as tankage, right? So if I pull a dry, big orange rockomax 36 off my SLV, I have to deduct 4 tons from my payload for that launch? Or I simply can't do that at all?

* If I have a reusable SLV, do I have to recover it right away or can I leave it in LKO for a bit?

* If I leave a SLV in orbit, it can do transfer burns as long as it never passes the 180 km altitude mark? So for example I could leave a SLV in orbit, refuel it, use it as the transfer stage of a Duna rocket, and then turn it around before it leaves LKO, deorbit and recover it.

* Snacks is OK for life support right? I tried installing MKS Kolonization but I don't think it installed quite right on 1.5, it looks like I've got some parts but I don't think it's really working. Snacks allows me to convert ore directly to life support using a greenhouse or science lab. Also looking at Near Future Electrical and propulsion. Would definitely be worth it for me to figure out the VASIMIR drives for efficient Duna transfer. The Colossus in particular is a promising replacement for nukes, although it does require 3000 electrical power per second to produce 240 kN thrust.

 

[Thor Wotansen]

Are there any regulations in this challenge prohibiting the use of a SSTO spaceplane as my launch vehicle?

[hoioh]

3 hours ago, dire said:

* If I leave a SLV in orbit, it can do transfer burns as long as it never passes the 180 km altitude mark? So for example I could leave a SLV in orbit, refuel it, use it as the transfer stage of a Duna rocket, and then turn it around before it leaves LKO, deorbit and recover it.

That one is a no, the SLV can't have AP above 180km, so there's no way it could boost a payload to Duna. Basically the SLV cannot contribute to anything above 180km, it can only park the payload up to that altitude

 

3 hours ago, dire said:

* Snacks is OK for life support right?

Anything goes, even stock can be modelled. According to the OP :

On 7/9/2018 at 4:24 AM, Death Engineering said:

Alternately, any mainstream life support mod can be used to manage life support/EVA limits and electrical needs.

 

That' what I could answer off the top of my head, ultimately it's up to D-E- to make a final decission. The other questions I wouldn't dare answer, but as a simple rule fo thumb: If you have to ask, consider if it's neccesary. If not, solve it a different way.

 

2 hours ago, Thor Wotansen said:

Are there any regulations in this challenge prohibiting the use of a SSTO spaceplane as my launch vehicle?

It can be any vehicle of your choice, so SSTO is one of many options! In fact, my rocket is an SSTO, which is just short for "Single Stage To Orbit" so it doesn't need to be plane shaped to be an SSTO

[dire]

Does this count as a "Demonstrated successful return"? Was doing fine and actually splashed down OK, but panicked and went full throttle for a second, which launched me back into the air and confused my parachutes so my second splashdown was a bit harder.

[Thor Wotansen]

That looks suspiciously like a RUD event.  May I suggest using the KER suicide burn readout in the future?

[dire]

On touchdown, I had 500 dv which would have taken me just under 4 seconds to burn at maximum  throttle. With parachutes, I was going about 16 m/s at 100 meters altitude. This rocket is not about doing a suicide burn, it's about just barely touching the engines to kill off that last 10 m/s for a safe touchdown. Since I have probe comms enabled and need LOS to either a relay or a ground station to even throttle up in the first place, I more or less set my throttle (at 0.66 m/s), my parachutes and my airbrakes  when I hit 60 km and shouldn't have touched it until splashdown. I was worried I was going too fast, though, and fat-fingered the controls since my payload happened to be relaying control to the SLV.

[jinnantonix]

@Death Engineering

Thanks for running this fascinatng challenge.  I have decided to add visual effect mods (improve the video submission quality) and MechJeb to automate the SLV launching, plus TACLS for life support but otherwise no other part mods.  I like the challenge of using only stock parts and crafting them into unique designs.

My plan is to create about a dozen modular craft and habitation components purely from stock, from which I build transit vehicles, Duna outpost and space station, all can be docked  in numerous configurations.  Resource modules using TACLS containers of various sizes will be added in accordance with the mission profile, but I will use just balanced resource containers (food, oxygen and water) to keep it simple. I intend to complete the full design and document in Imgur prior to launching anything, then will create a video of the actual mission for submission.

Just verifying I have understood the challenge:

“In order to qualify as "reusable", recovered launch stages must have comprised of at least 50% of the vehicles original lift-off mass (including payload).  Recovery of spent stages can be passive or active but must be demonstrated successfully at least once.”

So I have a 30 ton payload and a 50 ton recoverable SLV.    I can add two expendable boosters of <10 ton each?

“Duna space bus: Deliver a fully reusable shuttle service to Duna that can ferry at least four crew between Duna's surface and Ike's surface (refueling permitted). (+2) *Provided missions do not exceed 10 days, 'Habitation space' rule does not apply. 

Deep space transit: Implement a fully reusable crew transfer vehicle that can complete a Kerbin <-> Duna round trip without refueling (either direction). Must be capable of carrying a minimum of 4 crew. (+3)”

After the second transit window, I will have a Duna Ascent Vehicle (DAV) and a large NERVA tug (LNT) in orbit around Duna.  Each can dock to a CC8 - crew cabin craft with 8 seats - but only one CC8 module is available in the space station.  I can create either a Duna Space Bus (dock DAV + CC8)  or Deep Space Transit Vehicle (dock LNT + CC8)  at any time, but not both at the same time.  Do I need a second crew cabin to allow me to have both simultaneously?  I assume I only need to add another crew cabin module with 2 seats to create an advanced deep space transit vehicle (LNT + CC8 + CC2)?

 

[Death Engineering]

11 hours ago, dire said:

* If I want to integrate part of my SLV into a Duna stage I have to count the mass of that part as tankage, right? So if I pull a dry, big orange rockomax 36 off my SLV, I have to deduct 4 tons from my payload for that launch? Or I simply can't do that at all?

* If I have a reusable SLV, do I have to recover it right away or can I leave it in LKO for a bit?

* If I leave a SLV in orbit, it can do transfer burns as long as it never passes the 180 km altitude mark? So for example I could leave a SLV in orbit, refuel it, use it as the transfer stage of a Duna rocket, and then turn it around before it leaves LKO, deorbit and recover it.

* Snacks is OK for life support right? I tried installing MKS Kolonization but I don't think it installed quite right on 1.5, it looks like I've got some parts but I don't think it's really working. Snacks allows me to convert ore directly to life support using a greenhouse or science lab. Also looking at Near Future Electrical and propulsion. Would definitely be worth it for me to figure out the VASIMIR drives for efficient Duna transfer. The Colossus in particular is a promising replacement for nukes, although it does require 3000 electrical power per second to produce 240 kN thrust.

Welcome to the challenge and if I missed a question or have more questions LMK. Thanks to @hoioh for helping out. Sometimes my ideas don't leak out of my fingers right.  

* Any part that goes achieves Ap >180km Kerbin orbit is part of the payload mass and must be counted as such.

* The only important part is getting the payload to orbit. Provided the SLV can prove that it meets the 'reusable' rule, it can be assumed done for each launch and other than the proving-mission does not even really need to be done. The challenge isn't about the SLV.

* As hoioh said, that is a 'no'. Effectively, consider the NPM/payload as being an inert module delivered to orbit by FedEX. Where you take it is up to you. 

* All those mods are fine.

 

58 minutes ago, dire said:

Does this count as a "Demonstrated successful return"?

Ehm, no.    As noted above, as long as you can prove it can be successfully landed once, don't stress doing it perfectly for every launch. Another option is to use a mod like Stage Recovery which simulates both propulsive and aerodynamic recovery. Works great for SRB's as well. 

 

10 hours ago, Thor Wotansen said:

Are there any regulations in this challenge prohibiting the use of a SSTO spaceplane as my launch vehicle?

Welcome! Nope none whatsoever, other than it cannot leave LKO and any payload it deploys (including consumables) is counted in your stated NPM. 

____________________

Year 6 Day 297: "Hey Jeb, it looks like you!"

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