Mods for consoles

[GrandProtectorDark]

13 hours ago, Lisias said:

There was NEVER a modding scene on console.

Actually 
There is user-content Workshop support for the Cities skylines.
And some rather recent news is that Games from Paradox Interactive get console workshop support where the content doesn't need pre-approval from the console maker.

[Lisias]

Just now, GrandProtectorDark said:

Actually 
There is user-content Workshop support for the Cities skylines.
And some rather recent news is that Games from Paradox Interactive get console workshop support where the content doesn't need pre-approval from the console maker.

I said "was".

and yet, you still need approval of the console maker, your mod can be kicked out at any time, by any reasons. 

and you conveniently are ignoring that Modding on Consoles is illegal on Japan, subject to jail time. 

Modding games is about doing what you want, not what they allow you - this latter option is Content Creation for free.

[StrandedonEarth]

Well, skins are a form of mods, available on MC for ages. And Workshop functions and products would be vetted to ensure that it can't possibly be used to exploit or hack the console.

[GrandProtectorDark]

1 minute ago, Lisias said:

conveniently are ignoring that Modding on Consoles is illegal on Japan, subject to jail time

Japan =/= the entire world
 

2 minutes ago, Lisias said:

you still need approval of the console maker

Not for Paradox games anymore 

[Lisias]

1 minute ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Well, skins are a form of mods, available on MC for ages. 

I prefer to call them User Customizations. If the feature needs to be supported by the game developers, and uploading a png surelly needs it, then is not a mod!

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-titles/custom-skins-minecraft-windows-10-edition

 

[GrandProtectorDark]

2 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I prefer to call them User Customizations. If the feature needs to be supported by the game developers, and uploading a png surelly needs it, then is not a mod!

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-titles/custom-skins-minecraft-windows-10-edition

 

So If you uploaded Restock to consoles, but It needed Approval by Microsoft to go Online there, using your logic, would it be a mod or a user customization?

Edited March 16, 2019 by GrandProtectorDark

[Deddly]

General modding practices for console sounds like a great topic for the Lounge, guys

[Lisias]

12 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Japan =/= the entire world 

Tell that to Sony. That guys from PlayStation, do you know them?

 

12 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Not for Paradox games anymore 

Yes. This includes Paradox. You need their authorisation first. It only happens such authorisation (or denial) is implicitly. 

Paradox is not always the owner of the intellectual property into a game which it publishes, and therefore, Paradox cannot unconditionally allow modding to all games published by us. If you are unsure of which games are affected, please email [email protected]"

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/mod-static-info-ca.html

 

6 minutes ago, Deddly said:

General modding practices for console sounds like a great topic for the Lounge, guys

Agreed. I will not further answer on this thread. 

WE ARE IN THE LOUNGE. Sorry!

Edited March 16, 2019 by Lisias
Duh.

[Deddly]

2 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Agreed. I will not further answer on this thread. 

Made a new thread for you

[Lisias]

8 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

So If you uploaded Restock to consoles, 

First you upload Restock to the Consoles. Then I will talk about - I can change my mind once this happens, but not before.

[Lisias]

31 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

And Workshop functions and products would be vetted to ensure that it can't possibly be used to exploit or hack the console.

I think you nailed it. They can't expose the game's guts and console API to us, in the same way we can do with KSP.

So, we are not MODifying the game. We are adding content using the features they choose.

Mind Module Manager. It needs unrestricted access to the hard disk (at least inside KSP folder). So it can be used to replace a core feature's code to one using a malicious DLL that then can exploit the console (it was this way they managed to Hack the PS3, but using tje Linux subsystems - that was a "game" from the console point of view).

Now think on TweakScale. It needs MM in order to inject itself on the existent parts, or it is plain useless.

So, without MM, Tweakscale would had do that job itself. But by being able to do that job, Tweakscale would be able to do the same harm, and so it would be banned too.

So... No real, effective MODing is possible on Consoles, at least for now. We are jailed inside a Walled Garden doing only the things they coded to allow us to do.

What's User Customizations with Steroids on my book.

MOD is modifing the game to accomplish what you want. If there's a user interface somewhere coded by the game developers to allow you to do so, you are not modifing the game. You are using it the way they wanted you to use. 

[GrandProtectorDark]

That's one odd way to see it.

But another point is that although modding technically comes from Modifying, the term "mod/modding" nowadays sorta has morphed into "user created add-ons of all kinds".

I see people call Feline Rovers a mod equally as they call Mechjeb a mod.

The notion that Official modding support Invalids the term modding is wrong In my opinion though.
You just don't require some 3rd party solution like "Forge" for Minecraft

[Lisias]

11 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

That's one odd way to see it.
 

This is a technical way of seeing it. Technicians don't care about buzzwords, we call things by what they are, not by what people doing it wants it to look like.

 

13 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

But another point is that although modding technically comes from Modifying, the term "mod/modding" nowadays sorta has morphed into "user created add-ons of all kinds".
 

A.k.a "User Created Content".

 

14 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

I see people call Feline Rovers a mod equally as they call Mechjeb a mod.

If you care to search more,  you will see that both are called "Add'Ons" around here.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/forum/4-add-ons/

It's a nice way to solve the dilema, I say. 

 

16 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

.The notion that Official modding support Invalids the term modding is wrong In my opinion though.
You just don't require some 3rd party solution like "Forge" for Minecraft

Your statement is contradictory. If you don't need a third party tool to "add" something to a game, you don't need to modify it. So you are adding content.

The need for the (ab)use of the term "Mod" appers to be more a vanity (I want to be called a "Modder", not a "User Content Creator") than an  epistemological discussion.

On the bottom line, you can call yourself whatever you think it's right. (but it doesn't means that everybody else will agree and do the same).

 

[GrandProtectorDark]

So this basically boils down to you nitpicking the use of the word "modding" and it being substituted for user-created content. 

Mod/Add-on/User Created Content.
The meaning of it, is what people decide it too be.

Edited March 16, 2019 by GrandProtectorDark

[Lisias]

19 hours ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

So this basically boils down to you nitpicking the use of the word "modding" and it being substituted for user-created content. 

Mod/Add-on/User Created Content.
The meaning of it, is what people decide it too be.

No, It's about to know what you are doing. There're legal consequences on modding Consoles (see Japan), but there're no legal consequences on Adding Content to it.

You go to Japan and yells "I'm a Console Modder", you are arrested.

You go to Japan and yells "I'm a Console Content Creator", you risk being hired.

Your life, pal. Your problem. You can do whatever you want - but cannot wave the responsibly from the consequences of such acts.

[GrandProtectorDark]

3 hours ago, Lisias said:

There're legal consequences on modding Consoles

Can we take this in a general direction.
This is not only about japan. 
Your whole argument sounds like "You can't call it modding  on console because it is illegal in one country".
Japan is not the world.
Microsoft , aka Xbox, is american for example.
So you have to consider that console as well.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Can we take this in a general direction.
This is not only about japan.
Your whole argument sounds like "You can't call it modding  on console because it is illegal in one country".
Japan is not the world.
So you have to consider that console as well.

Ok. How about California?

Quote

Modder arrest a reminder that most console hacks are illegal

A California student has been arrested for modding gaming consoles to run "

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/08/modder-arrest-a-reminder-that-most-console-hacks-are-illegal/

As far as I remember, both XBox and Playstation are sold on California, I'm right?

 

Now, I'm playing a bit hard. But life is what life is. You can sell medicines, and call yourself a "drug dealer" - what would be not incorrect, but yet you will not like how people would handle you if you say 'I'm a drug dealer'.

As I said before, you can call yourself the way you want. But you don't have how to control how people will handle you based on what you tell about yourself.

"Modding" can mean many things, but "Add'On" and "User Content Creator" narrow that to things that are near what you really are doing. But, again, your call - your life, your problem.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Lisias
Shrinking the text a bit

[GrandProtectorDark]

 

10 minutes ago, Lisias said:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/08/modder-arrest-a-reminder-that-most-console-hacks-are-illegal/

Now you're just nitpicking on the word modding itself. 
I am, always was and will be talking about mods(as in user-made-addons) for console games.

The article you linked?
Is about modding the console itself , as in tampering with the hardware and firmware of the device you are running on.
The article mentiones a case where someone modified the device itself. Which is a thing you aren't allowed to because it enables to play pirated games.

The article itself does not talk about user created addons for games.

Edited March 17, 2019 by GrandProtectorDark

[Lisias]

6 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Now you're just nitpicking on the word modding itself. 
I am, always was and will be talking about mods(as in user-made-addons) for console games.

No!  You are. I'm just playing your game. As you said before:

On 3/16/2019 at 4:19 PM, GrandProtectorDark said:

The meaning of it, is what people decide it too be.

These guys decided to call some illegal activities to "Modding", and that guy that was arrested is a "Modder". Complain to Ars Technica, not to me!  

Now, try to find something as "User Content Creator was arrested by illegal User Content Creating", or "Gamer was arrested by creating illegal Add-On". 

But, and again - your call. You are free to call yourself the way you want. Just don't expect anyone else to call you this way.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Lisias
tyop!

[Chel]

Heck I use cheat codes, am I illegally using mods?

[Lisias]

1 minute ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

Heck I use cheat codes, am I illegally using mods?

No. I played dirty.  Modding "can" be illegal (as, for example, creating a Mod to circumvent a DMCA lock). But creating User Content will never be, because you are doing just things you are expected to do.

My whole argument is that we must take some precautions about the way we label ourselves. If there's a way to call yourself something not associated (at least, yet) to something illegal, why insist on using a term associated to illegal activities on the press?

But, and again, it's always your call. I know, you know, @GrandProtectorDark knows that here, on this forum, "Modding" is about writing DLLs to change the games behaviour, but also creating image and data files that KSP interprets as Content.

But out there, in the real World, "Modding a Console" is heavily associated to Mod Chips and piracy. I think it's prudent to be aware of that. Squad surely was prudent, by using the term "Add On" here on Forum.

[GrandProtectorDark]

1 minute ago, Lisias said:

These guys decided to call some illegal activities to "Modding", and that guy that was arrested "a Modder".

Important here is the context. He was modding the hardware/firmware. He modified the device.
Your comment makes you sound like saying that tampering with the hardware/firmware is the same as installing Kerbal Engineer .

[Lisias]

3 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Important here is the context. He was modding the hardware/firmware. He modified the device.
Your comment makes you sound like saying that tampering with the hardware/firmware is the same as installing Kerbal Engineer .

No. You are.

[GrandProtectorDark]

Again, the meaning of things isn't fixed.
On PC, for games, "mods/modding" is often associated with user-created add-ons.
If Consoles start to allow usercreated add-ons too, then there ain't anyone stopping people from calling those addons also "mods" and the practice of making/installing them "modding".

Just because console modding right now means "illegally tampering with the device", doesn't meant that meaning can't change(like how laws and ToS can change to).
Also you are not a console modder, you are  a modder for the game you are making mods for. And it's only that the platform which the game is on, is a console

[Lisias]

@GrandProtectorDark, I'm not on the mood for spin-doctoring with you.

As I said before, you can call yourself the way you want. Just don't expect me (or anybody else) to jump suit with you. And don't be surprised to be mishandled by someone that are used to use that label in a unpleasant way.

Just know what you are doing, as you can't always wave the consequences.

And never, ever, go to Japan.  

— — — — — 

A side note:

14 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Just because console modding right now means "illegally tampering with the device", doesn't meant that meaning can't change(like how laws and ToS can change to).

"Console Modding" is heavily associated to "tampering with the device" since the Sega Saturn days, one of the first VideoGames to be "industrially" modded as far as I know. I'm talking 1994, it's something like 25 years. 

Every single time, from the past 25 years (or more, Sega Saturn is the first I'm aware to have a Mod Chip), you read about Modding and Console, you are talking about this.

When people talks about things that people creates legally themselves for Consoles, we are used to use the word Homebrew,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrew_(video_games)

Edited March 17, 2019 by Lisias
a side note.