Beta of revival of B9 Shuttle Style Wings

[linuxgurugamer]

User @gilbr0ther made these a long time ago, and hasn't visited the forums in over a year.  This mod fell out of use when procedural wings were introduced.  I personally don't like the procedural wings, just because it's so complicated to make a wing.  So I'm in the process of reviving these parts.  The original thread is here: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/82857-090-

The beta is available from here:  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8rderdoiq8y5wy5/AACsiUyxxCMAKhR_VBdVXv48a?dl=0

I haven't yet decided whether to release these as a stand-alone, or as a part of the Mk2.5 SpacePlane Parts mod

The mod requires the B9 Part Switcher

Tweakscale is supported, although if it isn't there, then multiple parts of each type will be added to accommodate the different sizes

Current changes include:

• Updated parameters and added missing to bring parts up-to-date
• Moved all TweakScale lines into single script
• Removed the FSmeshSwitch, now uses the stock method using mirrorRefAxis 
• Replaced the FSairBrake with stock ModuleAeroSurface
• Added ModuleB9PartSwitch to the control surface to allow switching between surface attach and node attach
• Replaced old .mu files for the wing and control surface with a new one which only has a single model in it
• Added two incremental sizes
• DDSified all image files

 

[linuxgurugamer]

The current control surface is a single piece, even though it looks like two.  

I'm working on providing two smaller surfaces, based on the stock Shuttle Elvon 1 & 2.

They will be scalable, and will be both surface attachable and node attachable

 

[MaeharaProjekt]

@linuxgurugamer You, sir, are a titan of rescuing mods from the cold, life-draining tentacles of the Kraken of Entropy. 

[linuxgurugamer]

7 hours ago, MaeharaProjekt said:

@linuxgurugamer You, sir, are a titan of rescuing mods from the cold, life-draining tentacles of the Kraken of Entropy. 

Take your pick, the Kaken or Cthulhu

[4x4cheesecake]

If anyone else wants to try it and the parts don't appear in the mod list:

Rename the mod folder to "GilB9Shuttle_Wings", the capital letters are important

I've also noticed a few things though:

• there are two "Shuttle Tail Fin - X - Large" but they got different sizes. The bigger one should be named "Giant" like the wings, control surfaces, etc.#
• the relative wing area is the same for all parts (wings, elevons, tail fins). For reference: The "Shuttle Wing - Large" pretty much matches a combination of the stock "Big-S Delta Wing" + "Big-S Wing Strake". While the large shuttle wing got a relativ wing area of 5, the combination of the stock parts would be 5 + 1 = 6.
• same part combination as above got way less fuel capacities (400 units of LF), while the mod wing can carry 1012.5 units. Probably a scaling issue?
• the PAW of the Tail Fin is a mess Since the elevons of the tail fins can be split to be used as an airbreak, it is possible to set yaw, pitch and roll authority for a) the whole elevon, b) just the left side, c) just the right side. Also, the "Authority Limiter" is localted below the buttons for combined elevons but above for the left and right side. It is really confusing
• surface attached parts on the wings are crooked.
• elevons attached to the wings are crooked as well. Depending on the position where they are placed, you will get different results: in the middle or close to the inner edge.
• AFAIK, not connected attachment nodes still creates drag so it would be nice if the node on the wings (the one for the elevons) would be toggleable like the node on the elevons
• Mirror symmetry doesn't work for node attached elevons
• Mirror symmetry on surface attached elevons will mess up deploy directions. This happens during "pitch up", and this one during "roll left" (edit: apparently, this is just a visual issue. Even though the elevons are pointing in the wrong directions, I can control the test vehicle as usualy during a flight.)
• "Yaw" is inverted on the tail fins (also just visual)
• "roll" authority cannot be disabled on the tail fins

I guess that's everything for now

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by 4x4cheesecake
found another one

[linuxgurugamer]

7 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

If anyone else wants to try it and the parts don't appear in the mod list:

Rename the mod folder to "GilB9Shuttle_Wings", the capital letters are important

I've also noticed a few things though:

• there are two "Shuttle Tail Fin - X - Large" but they got different sizes. The bigger one should be named "Giant" like the wings, control surfaces, etc.#
• the relative wing area is the same for all parts (wings, elevons, tail fins). For reference: The "Shuttle Wing - Large" pretty much matches a combination of the stock "Big-S Delta Wing" + "Big-S Wing Strake". While the large shuttle wing got a relativ wing area of 5, the combination of the stock parts would be 5 + 1 = 6.
• same part combination as above got way less fuel capacities (400 units of LF), while the mod wing can carry 1012.5 units. Probably a scaling issue?
• the PAW of the Tail Fin is a mess Since the elevons of the tail fins can be split to be used as an airbreak, it is possible to set yaw, pitch and roll authority for a) the whole elevon, b) just the left side, c) just the right side. Also, the "Authority Limiter" is localted below the buttons for combined elevons but above for the left and right side. It is really confusing
• surface attached parts on the wings are crooked.
• elevons attached to the wings are crooked as well. Depending on the position where they are placed, you will get different results: in the middle or close to the inner edge.
• AFAIK, not connected attachment nodes still creates drag so it would be nice if the node on the wings (the one for the elevons) would be toggleable like the node on the elevons
• Mirror symmetry doesn't work for node attached elevons
• Mirror symmetry on surface attached elevons will mess up deploy directions. This happens during "pitch up", and this one during "roll left" (edit: apparently, this is just a visual issue. Even though the elevons are pointing in the wrong directions, I can control the test vehicle as usualy during a flight.)
• "Yaw" is inverted on the tail fins (also just visual)
• "roll" authority cannot be disabled on the tail fins

I guess that's everything for now

 

 

Thanks, I need to know if you were using Tweakscale or not

[4x4cheesecake]

2 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Thanks, I need to know if you were using Tweakscale or not

Nope, just the beta release + B9 PartSwitch

[linuxgurugamer]

3 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

• there are two "Shuttle Tail Fin - X - Large" but they got different sizes. The bigger one should be named "Giant" like the wings, control surfaces, etc.#

Fixed

4 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

the PAW of the Tail Fin is a mess Since the elevons of the tail fins can be split to be used as an airbreak, it is possible to set yaw, pitch and roll authority for a) the whole elevon, b) just the left side, c) just the right side. Also, the "Authority Limiter" is localted below the buttons for combined elevons but above for the left and right side. It is really confusing

Being worked on, not sure if anythinig can be done yet

5 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

AFAIK, not connected attachment nodes still creates drag so it would be nice if the node on the wings (the one for the elevons) would be toggleable like the node on the elevons

They are, in the PAW there should be an option called "Attachment", using that you can go from 0, 1 or 2 nodes

6 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Mirror symmetry doesn't work for node attached elevons

Stock bug, or limitation

7 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

• Mirror symmetry on surface attached elevons will mess up deploy directions. This happens during "pitch up", and this one during "roll left"  (edit: apparently, this is just a visual issue. Even though the elevons are pointing in the wrong directions, I can control the test vehicle as usualy during a flight.)

Same

7 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

• "Yaw" is inverted on the tail fins (also just visual)
• "roll" authority cannot be disabled on the tail fins

I'll have to look, I hadn't noticed that before.

[4x4cheesecake]

12 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

21 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

the PAW of the Tail Fin is a mess Since the elevons of the tail fins can be split to be used as an airbreak, it is possible to set yaw, pitch and roll authority for a) the whole elevon, b) just the left side, c) just the right side. Also, the "Authority Limiter" is localted below the buttons for combined elevons but above for the left and right side. It is really confusing

Being worked on, not sure if anythinig can be done yet 

Well, I wonder if it is actually necessary to configure the left and right side of the tailfin control surfaces or if you can just remove these entries. During a flight, they will only split while breaking, so what's the point of these settings anyway?

 

5 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

14 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

• Mirror symmetry on surface attached elevons will mess up deploy directions. This happens during "pitch up", and this one during "roll left"  (edit: apparently, this is just a visual issue. Even though the elevons are pointing in the wrong directions, I can control the test vehicle as usualy during a flight.)

Same 

I always put elevons in symmetry on my planes and shuttles but this is the first time I've seen a messed up deploy direction caused by symmetry. Hard to belive this is a stock bug/limitation.

 

11 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

They are, in the PAW there should be an option called "Attachment", using that you can go from 0, 1 or 2 nodes 

Ah, I see. Missed the option

[linuxgurugamer]

20 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Well, I wonder if it is actually necessary to configure the left and right side of the tailfin control surfaces or if you can just remove these entries. During a flight, they will only split while breaking, so what's the point of these settings anyway?

I agree, but I'm using the ModuleAeroSurface which is what the stock airbrake uses.  If I have to I'll go back to the FSairBrake, but I'm trying to not, because it doesn't show the drag properly.

 I've also been busy with KCT, which is why I wanted some other eyes on this.

26 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

I always put elevons in symmetry on my planes and shuttles but this is the first time I've seen a messed up deploy direction caused by symmetry. Hard to belive this is a stock bug/limitation.

Were they surface mount or node attach?  I'll guess you tried it using node attach, and that's what's the issue.  Surface attach works fine in my testing.

The node attachment is a work-in-progress, and you have to follow specific steps which I didn't list above.  Specifically, you can't use mirror symmetry with a node attach, parts have to be added individually

I just ran a few tests before I go to work.  I see that I didn't include the new elvons, which will make it a bit easier.  I put the wings on a plane, turned off all nodes, and put a Big-S Elvon 2 on in mirror symmetry mode. then launched it.  The elvon worked properly on both side,including the deploy direction.

I do see that the fin has a reversed deploy direction, and am very aware of the mess in the PAW for the vertical fin

 

[4x4cheesecake]

7 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Were they surface mount or node attach?  I'll guess you tried it using node attach, and that's what's the issue.  Surface attach works fine in my testing.

The node attachment is a work-in-progress, and you have to follow specific steps which I didn't list above.  Specifically, you can't use mirror symmetry with a node attach, parts have to be added individually 

I had them surface attached but maybe something messed up because I didn't remove the node from the wings. I'll try it again.

10 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

put a Big-S Elvon 2 on in mirror symmetry mode. then launched it.  The elvon worked properly on both side,including the deploy direction.

These are the stock elevons, aren't they?

I'll do some tests with different mod/stock combinations and share the results

[linuxgurugamer]

I may just write a small module which will inherit the ModuleAeroSurface, and disable the visibility of the unnecessary fields in the airbrakes.

The tailfin may need some work in the model, I'll have to go back to the original and see what changed.

3 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

I had them surface attached but maybe something messed up because I didn't remove the node from the wings. I'll try it again.

These are the stock elevons, aren't they?

 I'll do some tests with different mod/stock combinations and share the results

yes.  The stock parts shouldn't have nodes on them.

Thanks

[linuxgurugamer]

just an FYI, i just tested the original tail fin from the mod (unchanged) and the control surface is reversed in that as well :-(

At least I know it wasn't anything I did, but now I need to get it reversed.  Will work on this later

[4x4cheesecake]

Ok, so first of all: The wings don't provide an option to select the number of attachment nodes:

Adv. Tweakables are enabled, tried it while the wing is attached and on a ghost part.

Then, I've build a test craft with different combinations of mod and stock parts:

Spoiler

From top to bottom:

• Stock wing + stock elevon
• Mod wing + stock elevon
• Stock wing + mod elevon
• Mod wing + mod elevon

All parts are surface attached and in mirror symmetry.

Result:

The first two combinations work perfectly fine but the other two don't, so the issue is somewhere located in the mod elevons.

Spoiler

Pitch up:

Pitch down:

Roll left:

Roll right:

 

[linuxgurugamer]

6 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Ok, so first of all: The wings don't provide an option to select the number of attachment nodes

I must have made that beta before I added that, sorry.

Interesting that the mod elvon is also backwards, same as the rudder.  Might be a clue.

Thanks for the tests, I should be able to do something by tomorrow evening, if not sooner

[linuxgurugamer]

Grrr. Fix one thing, another breaks.  The fix for the elvons is ro remove the "mirrorRefAxis" line which I added to get the textures to properly mirror, but then the movemen of the surface get reversed on the mirrored side

@blackheart612 I think I need your help.

Look at the post above.  When I have these  lines:

//Either one of the following node_attach lines:
//node_attach = 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0
node_attach = 0, 0, 0, 1, 90, 0.0, 1

//and this:

mirrorRefAxis = 0, 0, 1

The textures get mirrored properly, but the movement of the control surface gets reversed in the mirror

If I don't have the mirrorRefAxis, then the textures are not mirrored, but the control surfaces work normally

In both cases, it was in surface attachment mode

Using the second node_attach reverses the direction of the movement on BOTH surfaces

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

[linuxgurugamer]

@blackheart612

I looked at AirplanePlus for inspiration, and saw that the only parts you had to use mirrorRefAxis were wheels and an engine prop.  I'm beginning to think that I'll have to make left and right parts because of the difference in textures

 

 

[blackheart612]

6 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Grrr. Fix one thing, another breaks.  The fix for the elvons is ro remove the "mirrorRefAxis" line which I added to get the textures to properly mirror, but then the movemen of the surface get reversed on the mirrored side

@blackheart612 I think I need your help.

Look at the post above.  When I have these  lines:

//Either one of the following node_attach lines:
//node_attach = 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0
node_attach = 0, 0, 0, 1, 90, 0.0, 1

//and this:

mirrorRefAxis = 0, 0, 1

The textures get mirrored properly, but the movement of the control surface gets reversed in the mirror

If I don't have the mirrorRefAxis, then the textures are not mirrored, but the control surfaces work normally

In both cases, it was in surface attachment mode

Using the second node_attach reverses the direction of the movement on BOTH surfaces

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

Yes, this is the case. You said you looked at AirplanePlus as inspiration, all the parts don't have any other moving modules but animation. Everything else will be flipped with mirrorRefAxis - light, lookconstraint, etc. So my parts are barebones - the gears don't have light, fancy suspension arms. So far I thought this made sense and might have no workaround (because Squad). I really tried digging around how much I could use on stock modules - but you might get some more, I'm not confident I'm that good at it.

Is your control surface asymmetrical aside from top and bottom? I believe you can make it face down without mirrorRefAxis. Our method basically mirrors all sides of the part - let's say we have an aircraft and the wing is asymmetrical. The leading edge of the wing is mirrored, the bottom of the wing is mirrored and the root is also mirrored. All axes. 

Here's a squad part without mirrorrefaxis but has a part that faces down:

Notice the stickers, with the root attachment point in mind, that suggests that the leading/trailing edge aren't mirrored but rather are just replicated as is to the other side. This only works if it's symmetrical, it'll be unnoticeable. I'm afraid if you want to mirror other modules with asymmetrical parts, you might need plug-ins as far as I know.

Edited April 6, 2019 by blackheart612

[4x4cheesecake]

@linuxgurugamer Well, I just noticed that this issue is not caused by mirroring the part but by the orientation. You probably knew this already but I thought I should share this anyway^^

Spoiler

 

[linuxgurugamer]

The problem comes down to whether or not the part is mirrored.  If mirrored, everything gets flipped, including the direction of movement.

I'm working on a solution, part of which will be proper instructions, because there are two modes of operation.  Works one way with node attach, a different way without.