[WIP] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[RaiderMan]

no to RO, sadly.

[Rudolf Meier]

I have a new version now that should solve this DLC robotic problem... but it's simply stupid what I had to do...

maybe I need to split this up and bring a new version 4.0.x for all older ksps and 4.1.x for 1.7.3 and later... I will have to see what I do

for the moment it's out as pre-release or beta

[Casper_83]

Could i use this to prevent this:

I like the game as it is in stock, except for som parts. like the one above.

If i install this, can i choose only to use this on specific parts and have the other ones stock?

I like the challenge with the weak joints otherwise.

 

[Rudolf Meier]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 11:40 AM, Casper_83 said:

Could i use this to prevent this:

I like the game as it is in stock, except for som parts. like the one above.

If i install this, can i choose only to use this on specific parts and have the other ones stock?

I like the challenge with the weak joints otherwise.

 

KJRn doesn't have this option, because it tries to find weak joints that shouldn't be weak and builds additional joints. The idea is not to make everything unrealisticly strong, but only to fix the unrealisticly weak joints.

... in theory I could imagine a way to achieve what you want by modifying the configuration of KJRn and playing with the old and still available options. But the development of KJRn goes into an other direction. It's going more into a fully automatic way with more intelligent detection of weak joints.

The fact that you have a problem with a rotating part makes it even more complicated.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[linuxgurugamer]

On 7/24/2019 at 5:40 AM, Casper_83 said:

Could i use this to prevent this:

I like the game as it is in stock, except for som parts. like the one above.

If i install this, can i choose only to use this on specific parts and have the other ones stock?

I like the challenge with the weak joints otherwise.

Careful use of Autostruts and Rigid Attachment should be able to help you

[Rudolf Meier]

for all those who want to do experiments and find out which parts of the ship are unstable, there is a new option in the debug version of 4.x.15 that allows you to see what's unstable

I hope that with this new tool we can also find out if KJRn is working as expected and if not improve it... without seeing where it bends, it was always hard to tell if it behaves like we want it

[Rudolf Meier]

I have updated the mod to support KSP 1.12 ... v4.1.18 is online, it is marked as pre-release, because it has not been tested

it should support everything in KSP 1.12 (robotics, rotating docking ports...)

[Rudolf Meier]

does it work or did someone see problems with this version? ... in case it is working, I will remove the "pre-release" from it

[Rudolf Meier]

v4.1.19 is online

[darthgently]

On 5/16/2019 at 5:53 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

STOP

ok ok ok... I see now, that it does not work

I will try a new idea... we have so many bugs and incompatibilities and stupid behaviour in KSP! Modding is a constant "how can I work around this stupid behaviour"? ... especially if you try to build KJR or IR ... that's just a nightmare! ... or even "impossible" ... but I'm only interested in "impossible" project and I will find a solution... impossible... *pah*... it was also "impossible" to fly to the moon... the direct idea is death for KJR, now I try it with a LOR ... if you understand what I mean

I gave up on both IR and stock robotics because of apparent incremental positioning roundoff errors or whatever the current explanation is.  I've solved nearly all of my minor robotic needs using Dock Rotate and PicoPorts, which for some reason are completely immune to the issues that stock dock rotation has (which I disable)

[Rudolf Meier]

31 minutes ago, darthgently said:

I gave up on both IR and stock robotics because of apparent incremental positioning roundoff errors or whatever the current explanation is.  I've solved nearly all of my minor robotic needs using Dock Rotate and PicoPorts, which for some reason are completely immune to the issues that stock dock rotation has (which I disable)

that was annoying...

but in KJR Next and Infernal Robotics Next, I have tried to solve those problems and it shouldn't happen with those mods

[darthgently]

12 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

that was annoying...

but in KJR Next and Infernal Robotics Next, I have tried to solve those problems and it shouldn't happen with those mods

Sorry.  I guess my point was that whatever DockRotate is doing seems to work with regards to the underlying issue that affects affected both IR and stock dock rotation and stock robotics.  I'm not sure what that is though, but was hoping it might make more sense to you.  Also, I didn't realize IR was your baby;  I could have been less blunt for sure

Edited March 27, 2022 by darthgently

[Rudolf Meier]

25 minutes ago, darthgently said:

Also, I didn't realize IR was your baby;  I could have been less blunt for sure

no problem :-)

26 minutes ago, darthgently said:

Sorry.  I guess my point was that whatever DockRotate is doing seems to work with regards to the underlying issue that affects affected both IR and stock dock rotation and stock robotics.  I'm not sure what that is though, but was hoping it might make more sense to you. 

hmm... yes, it does make sense to me... and, I think, with stock "robotics" or  other movement parts (and if I remember correctly also with autostruts), you always have this drift problem... I did read about a fix tough... but, I have no idea how good it is, maybe I'm going to investigate this some day

[Rodger]

@Rudolf MeierHi, Is there currently,  or could there be, a blacklist for parts that KJR should ignore? Currently trying to get an LRV working in BDB with a stock robotic deplyment system, and some people are having issues with phantom forces being applied via KJR joints.

I've had it work sometimes, and sometimes not, possibly due to the differences between "physicsSignificance" and the newer implementation "physicalSignificance"? But if we could just blacklist any of the parts in question from being reinforced, that might be the best option.

[Rudolf Meier]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:14 AM, Rodger said:

@Rudolf MeierHi, Is there currently,  or could there be, a blacklist for parts that KJR should ignore? Currently trying to get an LRV working in BDB with a stock robotic deplyment system, and some people are having issues with phantom forces being applied via KJR joints.

I've had it work sometimes, and sometimes not, possibly due to the differences between "physicsSignificance" and the newer implementation "physicalSignificance"? But if we could just blacklist any of the parts in question from being reinforced, that might be the best option.

That's interesting... I thought, that such problems don't exist anymore. But never the less... there is a way to tell KJR to ignore specific parts by adding a module to the part.

See the description here: Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement/KJRExcluded.cs at master · meirumeiru/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement · GitHub

If this helps, could you then contact me so that I can investigate this further?

[Rodger]

Yeah it's weird - in my game, I don't get any phantom forces, but a couple of other people have had issues, and I've double checked they have this version of KJR installed. I'll try the KJRExcluded module, thanks for pointing it out!

[Rudolf Meier]

Just now, Rodger said:

Yeah it's weird - in my game, I don't get any phantom forces, but a couple of other people have had issues, and I've double checked they have this version of KJR installed. I'll try the KJRExcluded module, thanks for pointing it out!

are they using KJR Next? or an other version? ... I'm only responsible for the Next one ... and in this version should explicitly take care of phantom forces and elliminate them (as far as I know no other version or stock robotics does this)

[Rodger]

Yeah, and I've even checked the .version file they had to be sure it was Next. I'll let you know what happens once the people who had issues can test it with the exclusion module

[Rudolf Meier]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:45 PM, Rodger said:

Yeah it's weird - in my game, I don't get any phantom forces, but a couple of other people have had issues, and I've double checked they have this version of KJR installed. I'll try the KJRExcluded module, thanks for pointing it out!

I've investigated this a bit after suddendly having the same problems (I never had them before)...

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:50 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

I've investigated this a bit after suddendly having the same problems (I never had them before)...

I have found a bug and I am working on an update...

Edited March 20, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

I have built a new version... it's the first build of v4.2 and currently marked as pre-release

you can find it here https://github.com/meirumeiru/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement/releases/tag/v4.2.20

(like always: the dbg version contains a GUI to see what's going on)

 

What is new?

First I created a new algorithm to find the parts that need to get connected via additional joints (because the old algorithm didn't work correctly and predictable). But then I realized that the system may be building way too many joints and that's not what we want. We want to keep the game as much as it is as possible, but the problems with unstable joints should be resolved. That's why I developed a new algorithm that only selects the problematic joints for reinforcement. E.g. for the "Acapello" rocket it builds less than 30 joints. And those joints are built with the strengt you would expect (and not unrealisticly strong).

It should improve the overall performance and reduce phantom forces as much as possible.

 

What did not change?

The reinforcement of the original joints using the old algorithm that's in every KJR version since ever.

 

The config.xml contains the setting to use the new algorithm.

If you want to use the "old" (but still little bit improved) system to build joints, modify the config.xml and set multiPartAttachNodeReinforcement, reinforceDecouplersFurther, reinforceLaunchClampsFurther to 1 and reinforceInversions to 0.

 

I hope you like the new version. It would be great to get some feedback about the new version. Does it work? Is it stable?

Edited April 1, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

I didn't like the v4.2.20... I have thrown away everything and started from scratch with the algorithms used

you can download it here

Release Kerbal Joint Reinforcement "Next" v4.2.21 · meirumeiru/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement (github.com)

 

why all this?

KJR... the "Kerbal Joint Reinforcement" was not always a "Reinforcement". That's the first thing I wanted to solve. While I was working on this I found out, that rockets didn't behave normally anymore. It felt like cheating. Joints didn't break anymore. They became either very stiff or very rubbery. In short: unrealistic. I wanted to correct this. The new idea of KJR next is to fix the problems we have in the game because of the game engine but still provide a realistic strenght and behaviour of the joints. But for all those who want to have simply very rigid rockets it should provide an option as well.

in reality rockets bend and wobble to a given extent (you can see this here NASA - Saturn V Apollo Shake Test - YouTube)... and that's what I want to bring back into the game while solving the absolute unrealistic instabilities

I hope that after a while we have a good product.

 

there are some important settings you should know

in the config.xml, you can set

 

reinforceAttachNodes (realistic? yes)

this defines if the mod modifies joint strengths according to the area of the joint (it only increases the strenght, never lowers it) ... you can use this option, but you don't have to

reinforceInversions (realistic? yes)

if this option is set, the mod tries to fix weak Unity joints by adding additional joints to the ship... but not like what you knew from old KJR... often it only adds a few joints (because most of them work just fine)

this option is the most important one, you should always set reinforceInversions

addExtraStabilityJoints (realistic? depends on the extraLevel)

if you think, that your rocket is too wobbly, you can set this option... this option can be sort of a help if your ship wobbles and shouldn't (and wouldn't in reality) ... but you can also use this option to make the joints very rigid, even unrealistic

extraLevel

0 - adds just weak joints to stop wobbling... this can still be seen as fix for a problem in the game engine

1 - adds a lot of joints from endpoints to endpoints of your ship and makes it very rigid... even unrealistic rigid

2 - if you still want more joints, use this option... this adds also joints from parts to their grand parents

Edited April 10, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

version 4.2.22 is available (currently marked as pre-release and thus not on CKAN)

Release Kerbal Joint Reinforcement "Next" v4.2.22 · meirumeiru/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement (github.com)

 

Its a cleanup of the previous version. There is a version with gui and one without.

 

there are changes in the config.xml

addExtraStabilityJoints doesn't exist anymore, it is integrated into extraLevel

extraLevel

0 - don't build extra joints

1 - adds just weak joints to stop wobbling... this can still be seen as fix for a problem in the game engine / the strenght of the joint is configured via the "extraLinearForce0" and "extraAngularForce0" values that you can add to the xml file

2- adds a lot of joints from endpoints to endpoints of your ship and makes it very rigid... even unrealistic rigid

3 - if you still want more joints, use this option... this adds also joints from parts to their grand parents

 

there are also more options you can set via the "extra..." values... I will document them later, because I think they normaly don't need to be modified

[Rudolf Meier]

the first release version v4.2.23 of the new product is online

[Rudolf Meier]

I have created an update... some joints were too weak (in case of non ideal mass and break force relations of joints)

this is now fixed in version v4.2.24