Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[Starwaster]

@Rudolf Meier @Tincan70 Re: Wheel bouncing when KJRN is installed: I'd suggest one of two things, given that ModuleWheelBase forces autostrutting on the wheels.

1. Exempt ModuleWheelBase from being reinforced by KJR
2. Override wheels from autostrutting. It only sets it once, in OnStart(). Override it any time any time after everything has started up in flight scene. (set part.autoStrutMode = Part.AutoStrutMode.Off

[Rudolf Meier]

9 hours ago, Starwaster said:

1. ...
2. ...

1. That is already in...

2. This could be interesting for Infernal Roboitcs only, but DLC robotics will have problems with that too. That's why I'm currently waiting to see how this develops. But for KJR Next I think there's nothing to do. Because this joint is already reinforced in a way that is strong enough.

11 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

If I recall correctly,  I think it first started when I installed Breaking Ground with the robotic parts, actually the first install none of the rotating parts would work until I re-installed.  I was wondering if it had something to do with the robotic parts in the stock game.

DLC or no DLC, that's not the question... 1.7.1 and 1.7.2, that's important. They modified parts of it, but I don't see problems with that at the moment. And... KJR Next in the latest versions works with both of them (but can do its job better and form stronger joints in 1.7.2... because of the new event 1.7.2 sends).

[Tincan70]

16 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

1. That is already in...

2. This could be interesting for Infernal Roboitcs only, but DLC robotics will have problems with that too. That's why I'm currently waiting to see how this develops. But for KJR Next I think there's nothing to do. Because this joint is already reinforced in a way that is strong enough.

DLC or no DLC, that's not the question... 1.7.1 and 1.7.2, that's important. They modified parts of it, but I don't see problems with that at the moment. And... KJR Next in the latest versions works with both of them (but can do its job better and form stronger joints in 1.7.2... because of the new event 1.7.2 sends).

1.7.2 is what I am using.  But yesterday I built another ship and the bouncing started up again without KJR next installed?  So not sure what is going on but now it seems KJR is not the problem.  Only way I could keep the ship from bouncing to Oblivion is hacking gravity down to about .35 and then it settled down.  So for now I guess I will have to hack gravity when landing if the bouncing occurs?  Is anyone else having this problem at all?

[Rudolf Meier]

5 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

1.7.2 is what I am using.  But yesterday I built another ship and the bouncing started up again without KJR next installed?  So not sure what is going on but now it seems KJR is not the problem.  Only way I could keep the ship from bouncing to Oblivion is hacking gravity down to about .35 and then it settled down.  So for now I guess I will have to hack gravity when landing if the bouncing occurs?  Is anyone else having this problem at all?

I often see it after comming back (loading scene) or after timewarp... but I didn't remark it directly after landing (I say "remark" because it may be there, but I didn't see it... but now I will pay more attention ). But wheels (and landing legs which are wheels) are a constant problem in ksp. That's why I rated this as normal.

[kcs123]

12 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

1.7.2 is what I am using.  But yesterday I built another ship and the bouncing started up again without KJR next installed?  So not sure what is going on but now it seems KJR is not the problem.  Only way I could keep the ship from bouncing to Oblivion is hacking gravity down to about .35 and then it settled down.  So for now I guess I will have to hack gravity when landing if the bouncing occurs?  Is anyone else having this problem at all?

Have you tried this:

Although, few last posts, there is also non-reproducible bug report with bouncing craft even with WS installed. Definetly something strange is going on with KSP. Neither mods like WS or KJRn can help in some situations, but regardless, it is much better playing experience if you use them rather than not.

[Jognt]

14 hours ago, Tincan70 said:

1.7.2 is what I am using.  But yesterday I built another ship and the bouncing started up again without KJR next installed?  So not sure what is going on but now it seems KJR is not the problem.  Only way I could keep the ship from bouncing to Oblivion is hacking gravity down to about .35 and then it settled down.  So for now I guess I will have to hack gravity when landing if the bouncing occurs?  Is anyone else having this problem at all?

Everyone is.

I usually 'fix' it by either adding/removing wheels/legs, or setting a custom strength for the spring/damper.

Edit: The reason you're not seeing bug reports all over the place is probably because people expect KSP legs/wheels to behave strangely. I wouldn't be surprised if people were to flood the forum asking "Which of my mods fixed the legs/wheels?" if squad were to somehow create functioning versions. (Or even "Help, my legs/wheels work as they should, now my KrakenKraft no longer works! How do I make them work as usual again?")

Edited July 1, 2019 by Jognt

[Rudolf Meier]

1 hour ago, Jognt said:

...or setting a custom strength for the spring/damper.

Right, now that you mention it I remember that my last rover did fell over all the time and I could stop him from doing it by modifying those values.

[Jognt]

19 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

Right, now that you mention it I remember that my last rover did fell over all the time and I could stop him from doing it by modifying those values.

Anything that goes on a bouncing frenzy usually settles down just by setting it to custom without even modifying any values. It'll probably find a reason to resume bouncing later on though (especially with planes, where the mass of the craft changes as fuel is spent) so it's probably that sweet Squad magic going on.

@Tincan70 Custom spring/damper is also a decent method to gauge whether you need 'moar' legs/wheels. Max spring should net you quite a visible difference to min spring if the current amount of legs/wheels can carry the load. To be able to set these values, be sure to enable "Advanced Tweakables" in the game menu.

ps. I cannot tell you how much time I've spent trying to figure out a way to get the legs/wheels to behave properly. It's truly something that vexes me.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Jognt

[Rudolf Meier]

6 minutes ago, Jognt said:

Anything that goes on a bouncing frenzy usually settles down just by setting it to custom without even modifying any values.

That's also my experience...

[Sijet]

On 6/25/2019 at 4:36 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

Well... it's not that I don't believe it... and I have it still on my list as "unresolved" (I'm never closing cases just because I didn't find out what it was). But I wasn't able to reproduce it currently... also not with the ships I got from users reporting this. That's why I cannot say anything about it currently... sorry... but, thanks for reporting it.

I could imagine, that it has to do with timing... maybe one version is quicker and does see an other situation... can you try to lock/unlock the servos and tell me if it still exists then? Or going to time warp for a short period and see if it happens also after that? ... those 2 actions would trigger a rebuild of the joints... maybe we can find out something when you play with those?

I finally created an account on this forum because of this issue. I don't have screenshots right now, but basically I attached a science module under the main body of a probe with a piston... The non-debug version of KJRn locked up the piston but the debug version fixed it. I will keep using the debug version for play... But... Before I installed the debug version, I did try to time warp and lock/unlock the joints but it didn't change anything... 

 

I can upload craft files via steam if you want but my current install has a lot of mods, I can create a stock install to test it later today if that will help you...anything to help... I appreciate you mod devs a lot! 

[linuxgurugamer]

@Rudolf Meier

I heard you were having problems trying to replicate an issue with KJR and hings/servos, etc.

I ran into this on my stream this evening, have a vessel for you to play with :

https://kerbalx.com/linuxgurugamer/KJRNext-test1

Hope it helps

Trying to move the hinges failed , somehow the wings were strutted to something. I switched to the dbg version from the Github and the problems went away.

[linuxgurugamer]

8 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

@Rudolf Meier

I heard you were having problems trying to replicate an issue with KJR and hings/servos, etc.

I ran into this on my stream this evening, have a vessel for you to play with :

https://kerbalx.com/linuxgurugamer/KJRNext-test1

Hope it helps

Trying to move the hinges failed , somehow the wings were strutted to something. I switched to the dbg version from the Github and the problems went away.

Just following up on this.  I'd be happy to test with any test code you'd like, if necessary

[Rudolf Meier]

9 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Just following up on this.  I'd be happy to test with any test code you'd like, if necessary

thanks, I'll come back on this. I haven't tested it now... had to help replacing servers and it took way longer than everyone expected

I think I will have a test system ready tomorrow

[Rudolf Meier]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:24 AM, linuxgurugamer said:

Trying to move the hinges failed , somehow the wings were strutted to something. I switched to the dbg version from the Github and the problems went away.

I didn't see this problem... on my machine it works.

Currently I'm trying an more extreme way of debugging. I got the full GameData folder from a computer showing those problems and... still it works. So either I need to do more (correct steps, correct environment like space around kerbin, duna, mun... whatever) or... I don't know... maybe it's never happening in the debug environment of unity... I don't know... I've currently still no idea what the problem is

but what I learned from the installation I got was, that a lot of mods are throwing a lot (really a lot) of errors and nullreferenceexceptions... in every frame! ... this doesn't make debugging easier and I'm not sure if this could contribute to the problem we see here

anyway... I'm continuing to try to get into this error situation

[Jognt]

2 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

maybe it's never happening in the debug environment of unity...

Considering the problem is gone with the debug version of KJRn, have you tried checking on a regular non-debug install?

[linuxgurugamer]

Whats the difference in the code between the debug version and the release version?

[Rudolf Meier]

10 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Whats the difference in the code between the debug version and the release version?

the difference is, that it's a debug compile

and from the code ... there is a class Analyzer... and this, together with all it's gui classes is removed via #if #endif, as well as about 4 calls from the main classes which are all 1 lines (something like Analyzer.OnModified) ... to re-read the vessels information

and, the debug version has about 3 if's additional to the default version (to allow the modification of the settings directly in the game). but... here also #if #endif around the if

but, if every option is activated, then it doesn't make a difference... or shouldn't

[linuxgurugamer]

I've had a few of these in the past, and they are real pains to track down.

One question, did you try the craftfile I provided using the CKAN installed version of KJR-N?  

If you did and it worked, then that might point to something different between our installs beyond mods.  If it didn't work, then at least you have something you can test with

[Rudolf Meier]

9 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I've had a few of these in the past, and they are real pains to track down.

One question, did you try the craftfile I provided using the CKAN installed version of KJR-N?  

If you did and it worked, then that might point to something different between our installs beyond mods.  If it didn't work, then at least you have something you can test with

yes, I tried and it worked

 

but, I have had a reproduction now... I had to install it via CKAN... when I installed the one I uploaded to github manually, then it worked... the question is why... did I forget a file? is it different? ... but from now it should be easier... now I will compare everything bit by bit... I will find it...

ok... now comes the funny part... the debug version works, the release not... so I have to debug the release version... that's always a fun

[Rudolf Meier]

I don't know everything at the moment, but if you copy the config.xml file from the debug version into the release version, then the release works... somehow those values seem to be the key... but, as I said, I don't understand this at the moment. But I think I can start debugging with the debug version now. Because we should see the same problems there too with the wrong initial config values...

ah, no... sorry... use the config that is written after using the debug version once... that's how it works  ... at least sometimes

Edited July 10, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[Jognt]

6 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

I don't know everything at the moment, but if you copy the config.xml file from the debug version into the release version, then the release works... somehow those values seem to be the key... but, as I said, I don't understand this at the moment. But I think I can start debugging with the debug version now. Because we should see the same problems there too with the wrong initial config values...

ah, no... sorry... use the config that is written after using the debug version once... that's how it works  ... at least sometimes

Debugception?

[Rudolf Meier]

I think we have 2 bugs...

first, when I write to the config file after loading it, all float-values are missing (that's a standard ksp class)... no idea if this could be something I do wrong... what else than calling "load" could I do? ... anyway, I will have to investigate this one

second, with those uninitialized values... why does the code then lock things it shouldn't lock up? what is it doing then... that's the other question

[falcoon]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:04 PM, Rudolf Meier said:

Because autostruts need to be activated by hand and autostruts are not very intelligent in their behavior. The overall experience can be better when using a mod instead of autostruts. And KJR Next tries to be that mod.

Should autostruts and your mod be used interchangeably?
Is there any point to use KJR and activate autostruts in the same time? Can it cause any problems when used together?

[Rudolf Meier]

1 hour ago, falcoon said:

Should autostruts and your mod be used interchangeably?
Is there any point to use KJR and activate autostruts in the same time? Can it cause any problems when used together?

Yes, KJR is replacing autostruts.

The only reason why you could use them together (in my opinion) might be, if you have one connection that is too weak even with KJR and want to add an additional strut to this specific joint. Then you can activate the autostrut for this joint. But I wouldn't put autostruts to all joints.

One of the problems I can see with autostruts and KJR is that they don't build the joints the same way and this can cause problems (mostly after locking/unlocking robotic parts). And then it does hurt your performance. And it could be that it's getting unrealisticly strong/stiff.

[Rudolf Meier]

12 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

I think we have 2 bugs...

first, when I write to the config file after loading it, all float-values are missing (that's a standard ksp class)... no idea if this could be something I do wrong... what else than calling "load" could I do? ... anyway, I will have to investigate this one

second, with those uninitialized values... why does the code then lock things it shouldn't lock up? what is it doing then... that's the other question

now I know we have 2 bugs... when I load the config to add a value, all float values are gone after this action... and the used class is "KSP.IO.PluginConfiguration" ...