Chernobyl (HBO)

[Shpaget]

A bit of a spoiler from the end of the s01e02.

Spoiler

The men going into the building to drain the water have two flashlights which turn off, presumably due to radiation.

What would be the mechanism of the failure. Why would radiation cause them to turn off? I suppose they were chemical battery powered, but radiation should not have such dramatic effect, right? Is this purely for TV drama or is there some science to it?

 

[tater]

21 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

A bit of a spoiler from the end of the s01e02.

  Reveal hidden contents

The men going into the building to drain the water have two flashlights which turn off, presumably due to radiation.

What would be the mechanism of the failure. Why would radiation cause them to turn off? I suppose they were chemical battery powered, but radiation should not have such dramatic effect, right? Is this purely for TV drama or is there some science to it?

 

Spoiler

Looks apocryphal. There are multiple versions. The one I read said 2/3 were military personnel, this link says all were plant workers.

https://www.businessinsider.com/chernobyl-volunteers-divers-nuclear-mission-2016-4

 

[kerbiloid]

As in s01e03 the are buzzing with the "bug flashlights", probably just depleted batteries.

Spoiler

 

[Shpaget]

I remember my grandmother had one very similar. She would always take it with her on an evening walk. It worked surprisingly well.

[tater]

Once again, another good episode. I'm sure there are problems someone who has never even visited, much less lived in the region would find, but the story, particularly the brave people willing to risk everything to save others is pretty awesome. The leader of the miners was great. "If these worked, you'd be wearing them."

[kerbiloid]

12 hours ago, tater said:

The leader of the miners was great. "If these worked, you'd be wearing them."

They didn't breath with the dust from beneath.

[Cydonian Monk]

20 hours ago, tater said:

The leader of the miners was great. "If these worked, you'd be wearing them."

Just confirms to me that coal miners are the same everywhere. From the whole "you don't have enough bullets" bit to the "we're still wearing the hats, what else do you want?" part. Working in tight and narrow hollows under a million tons of rock that can squish you like you didn't exist makes you not care at all about the petty BS that goes on up on the surface.

[sh1pman]

Q: What is very large, makes a lot of smoke and noise, takes down 20 liters of gas per hour, and cuts an apple into three pieces?

A: The Soviet machine built to cut apples into four pieces.

[kerbiloid]

"If these worked, you'd be wearing them."
("If these didn't, they'd stay white.")

[Pthigrivi]

Agreed on all counts. This series (especially the performances) is completely amazing. 

[lajoswinkler]

On 5/15/2019 at 4:39 PM, YNM said:

Hiroshima was a single instance of explosion, with all the radioactive material consumed near-instantly, while Chernobyl slowly emanated their radioactive material over the course of days by convection. The latter is larger when summed up as a whole, but not by the rate at which it was dispersing.

Nuclear bombs do not "consume radioactive material". They fission a tiny bit of uranium-235 (or fusion a tiny bit of hydrogen isotopes) and produce a lot of fission products with some transuranics. Before the explosion, radioactivity of the nuclear bombs is negligible in a sense that one could touch the material without any issues, provided that there is no ingestion.

 

Not even one gramme of mass has been consumed in these bombs that killed so many poor people. Basically all of the mass has been preserved, one small part transmuted and splashed into a ball of plasma, churned together with calcinated dirt, sucked into the mushroom cloud and then dispersed as fallout.

 

Chernobyl did not release fallout because there hasn't been any nuclear explosion and dirt calcination. Also no compounds of high transuranic elements.

Since it's not a sudden, violent fission with intensive neutron flux inside, fission reactor products don't go higher than fermium (and that one is produced in traces). Bulk of the fission products are much lighter nuclides of caesium, iodine, technetium, zirconium, samarium, europium, krypton, xenon, etc.

 

 

As for the series itself, it's has a remarkably high degree of historical accuracy, but there are some things that are plainly wrong and the producers didn't bother informing people about it or the reasons behind their decision to include misinformation.

• the helicopter accident didn't occur until months later, and its cause was not radioactivity, but pilot's error
• people on the railway bridge did not get acute radiation sickness. In fact, no one apart from the first responders and some powerplant workers got it. Not even beta burns.
• three, not two people went into the ruins of the reactor hall
• you don't get sudden skin bleeding from being exposed to fission products - no need for such sensationalism
• the scene with the burning core rubble should've contained plenty of blue glow from ionized air - workers described blue fire
• you can't see air ionization glow during daylight from a helicopter
• flashlight batteries don't die because of ionizing radiation
• that whole scene with Legasov and Khomyuk describing "between two and four megatonnes" thermal explosion with a 200 km shockwave "destroying other cores" is just plain BS. Nobody ever claimed that. It's pure fearmongering and sensationalist claim in an already grave situation.

 

I can tolerate artistic liberty, but with things such as historical event reenactments, where details are crucial, it's simply wrong. I could forgive design details being wrong (props, buildings, clothes style) but important facts about the event, no.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

And here in Russia only American spies drink strong alcohol without having a snack.
(The scene in the hotel bar).

 

[Shpaget]

12 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

I can tolerate artistic liberty, but with things such as historical event reenactments, where details are crucial, it's simply wrong. I could forgive design details being wrong (props, buildings, clothes style) but important facts about the event, no.

But what are important facts is a matter of opinion when it comes to entertainment. No one here would suggest that this is a training or educational video meant to be taken literary and as complete account of the events. This is entertainment piece based on a real event.

The helicopter crash is irrelevant for the general event, but here is used to further illustrate the danger of intense radiation.

People on the bridge looking at the fire and the pretty lights being covered in radioactive ashes is illustrative of the governments failure to inform the population of the dangers.

Two or three individuals going into reactor is beyond irrelevant.

Sudden skin bleeding you mention I assume you're talking about the firefighter that picked up a piece of graphite? Yeah, that's used to introduce foreboding. A standard storytelling device.

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable and prone to be misunderstood. Cherenkov radiation is shown as air glowing above the reactor, both in the night scene with people on the bridge and from the helicopter during the daylight (which is obviously exaggerated, but perfectly reasonable for a piece of entertainment.

Flashlight dieing due to radiation is something I brought up earlier in the topic and doesn't sit well with me either, but as a visual effect is just perfect. Again, this is entertainment.

Claiming that nobody ever suggested the possibility of an additional explosions is a bold move. I doubt we have access to everything that has been said behind the closed doors. 

[DDE]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

  Reveal hidden contents

And here in Russia only American spies drink strong alcohol without having a snack.
(The scene in the hotel bar).

 

Which is why they don't last very long - the cirrhosis gets them before the KGB can.

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, Shpaget said:

The helicopter crash is irrelevant for the general event, but here is used to further illustrate the danger of intense radiation.

But irl the radiation was not that intense to shoot down the helicopter crews, or cause immediate bleeding.

As well, the sunlight was never Fallout-3-green, the room lights do not use weak 15 W lamps (usually 60 W, sometimes 100 W).

The tech-noir is so tech-noir...

Edited May 25, 2019 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

14 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Chernobyl did not release fallout because there hasn't been any nuclear explosion and dirt calcination. 

But it did contaminate a lot of the downwind area, and to make things safe again they have to remove quite a lot of topsoil - this happened after Fukushima too.

Then again, the only time humanity ever detonated nuclear bombs to really kill people was over Nagasaki and Hiroshima... plus that one slip where we grossly underestimated a nuclear bomb's yield.

So yeah, a terrible core meltdown vs. a 1 Mt nuclear bomb is a far cry, but a 10 Kt bomb isn't that far off in the end - just one happens in shorter timescale, the other in longer timescale.

[kerbiloid]

13 minutes ago, YNM said:

Then again, the only time humanity ever detonated nuclear bombs to really kill people was over Nagasaki and Hiroshima... plus that one slip where we grossly underestimated a nuclear bomb's yield.

Actually, there were several more lethal accidents during the nuclear tests.

And in 1962 the French government commission unexpectedly got under fallout. Though, without casualties.
http://www.sonicbomb.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=112

Edited May 25, 2019 by kerbiloid

[lajoswinkler]

2 hours ago, Shpaget said:

But what are important facts is a matter of opinion when it comes to entertainment. No one here would suggest that this is a training or educational video meant to be taken literary and as complete account of the events. This is entertainment piece based on a real event.

You know that. But most people don't. They will see this as a historical reenactment, almost a documentary. Comments on Youtube, Twitter, etc. are clearly showing that majority of people really thinks this is a word to word reenactment. No entertainment. And the show itself has no disclaimer, at least I haven't seen one, not that anyone would bother to look for it in the end titles.

 

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The helicopter crash is irrelevant for the general event, but here is used to further illustrate the danger of intense radiation.

It's relevant because it basically mocks the deceased and their families. Helicopter pilots were not idiots who would fly into a direct gamma flux shrouded in a plume with fission products. They knew the dangers involved. Imagine if it was your father or grandfather who died in that accident and then some show portrays him as an idiot who carelessly flew into death due to stupidity.

 

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People on the bridge looking at the fire and the pretty lights being covered in radioactive ashes is illustrative of the governments failure to inform the population of the dangers.

Irrelevant. I didn't say this did not happen. It did. People did go to the railroad bridge and really watched the accident, but none of them got acute radiation syndrome as depicted later in the hospital where that guy with the baby has his facial skin flaking off. There is no reason to include such historical inaccuracy.

 

Quote

Two or three individuals going into reactor is beyond irrelevant.

Tell that to their families. Gennadiyevych, Kudryavtsev and Proskuryakov. Literally no reason not to do it properly and pay respect to all of them.

 

Quote

Sudden skin bleeding you mention I assume you're talking about the firefighter that picked up a piece of graphite? Yeah, that's used to introduce foreboding. A standard storytelling device.

No, I mean Yuvchenko, who held the reactor room doors opened. Completely fabricated and dishonest.

 

Quote

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable and prone to be misunderstood. Cherenkov radiation is shown as air glowing above the reactor, both in the night scene with people on the bridge and from the helicopter during the daylight (which is obviously exaggerated, but perfectly reasonable for a piece of entertainment.

No, that is not Cherenkov radiation. That is ionized air glow. Very different things. For air to glow with Cherenkov radiation, ionizing ray flux would have to be much higher, but by then it would already likely be plasma and its light would not allow you to see it.

And no, there is no reason to make this into entertainment. It's disgraceful and panders to people who think radioactive things glow like in the Simpsons. Not showing goofy stuff is actually good for suspense and the general principle that humans can not detect ionizing radiation which makes it even more ominous.

 

Quote

Claiming that nobody ever suggested the possibility of an additional explosions is a bold move. I doubt we have access to everything that has been said behind the closed doors. 

Since Khomyuk is an invented character, I can only comment on Legasov. I am pretty sure the guy was smart enough not to say such a stupid thing. Since he's also a hero and later commited suicide, it's also very disrespectful to portray him like this.

The only thing that could've happened is unstoppable, enormous release of steam contaminated mainly with radioiodine. It would be disastrous, but no "3-5 MT TNT" blast would occur.

42 minutes ago, YNM said:

But it did contaminate a lot of the downwind area, and to make things safe again they have to remove quite a lot of topsoil - this happened after Fukushima too.

Then again, the only time humanity ever detonated nuclear bombs to really kill people was over Nagasaki and Hiroshima... plus that one slip where we grossly underestimated a nuclear bomb's yield.

Fukushima's contamination is laughably negligible compared to what happened in Ukraine and Belarus and there is no need to destroy the topsoil there. I urge you to read this article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/03/11/it-sounds-crazy-but-fukushima-chernobyl-and-three-mile-island-show-why-nuclear-is-inherently-safe/

In 2017, while visiting Fukushima for the second time, I lost my cool over this issue. Jet-lagged and hungry, and witnessing the ridiculous and expensive bull-dozing of the region’s fertile topsoil into green plastic bags, I started grilling a scientist with the ministry of the environment.

Why were they destroying Fukushima’s precious topsoil in order to reduce radiation levels that were already at levels far lower than posed a danger? Why was the government spending billions trying to do the same thing with water near the plant itself? Was nobody in Japan familiar with mainstream radiation health science?

At first the government scientist responded by simply repeating the official line — they were remediating the top soil to remove the radiation from the accident.

I decided to force the issue. I repeated my question. My translator told me that the expert didn’t understand my question. I started arguing with my translator.

Then, at that moment, the government scientist started talking again. I could tell by the tone of his voice that he was saying something different.

“Every scientist and radiation expert in the world who comes here says the same thing,” he said. “We know we don’t need to reduce radiation levels for public health. We’re doing it because the people want us to.”

The truth of the matter had been acknowledged, and the tension that had hung between us had finally broken. “Arigato gozaimasu!” I said, genuinely grateful for the man’s honesty.

The man’s face was sad when he explained the situation, but he was also calmer. The mania behind his insistence that the “contaminated” topsoil had required “cleaning” had evaporated.

And I wasn’t mad anymore either, just relieved. I understood his dilemma. He had only been the repeating official dogma because his job, and the larger culture and politics, required him to.

 

Quote

So yeah, a terrible core meltdown vs. a 1 Mt nuclear bomb is a far cry, but a 10 Kt bomb isn't that far off in the end - just one happens in shorter timescale, the other in longer timescale.

Again, we're not speaking about radionuclide release, but the explosive force. It is literally impossible for that scenario to occur. It's equally ludicrous as the "China syndrome".

[YNM]

2 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

"Every scientist and radiation expert in the world who comes here says the same thing. We know we don’t need to reduce radiation levels for public health. We’re doing it because the people want us to.”

... which shows to us what really matters.

Let's be honest, Polonium in a smoker's lung probably has more radioactivity when combined over their lifetime consumption. But most of us cares very little about it.

Elected officials care about their public votes; Government workers cares with doing the least possible.

Edited May 25, 2019 by YNM

[tater]

I didn't get the idea that radiation was why the flashlights didn't work, since they blinked off for just a short while, and worked the rest of the time the guys were in the basement. They simply ended on those few seconds for a cliffhanger.

The helo thing bugged me, it reality it hit a crane, right?

 

[kerbiloid]

6 minutes ago, tater said:

it reality it hit a crane, right?

It hit a crane, but not because of radiation, just it was too close to the hole.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by kerbiloid

[tater]

7 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

It hit a crane, but not because of radiation, just it was too close to the hole.

That's what I meant, a "normal" accident.

[tater]

Fwiw, the author of Midnight in Chernobyl was on a podcast I just listened to and happened to say that there were Politburo transcripts of them discussing huge evacuation areas in the context of a large steam explosion.

It would be interesting to see what was actually said.

Ie: regardless of the actual risk of such an event it might be completely historical for them to discuss it as a risk, as in RL they did not have our hindsight.

[kerbiloid]

They were also discussing a Shuttle stealing Salyuts and a Shuttle diving with a hydrogen bomb.

Upd.
Some scans of relevant docs (in Russian, obviously)
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/rus/Perestroika/Chernobyl.html

Some explanations from Gorbachev
https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/2016/04/25/68372-konets-sveta-uzhe-byl

(The Government commission got to the place only on May, 02, used no respirators, lived in the hotel, and was drinking and eating same food.
They didn't have clear vision of what really happened, were underestimating significance, were told that this is just another similar incident, and were worrying mostly about Kiev next to the place, than about something of more wide range)

Edited May 26, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Cydonian Monk]

17 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

They were also discussing a Shuttle stealing Salyuts

Salyut 7 movie spoilerish:

Spoiler

I love the Salyut 7 movie, but the end of it with Challenger sitting there station keeping was just... LOLWUT? Sure, let's just dump SpaceLab in orbit to steal the station and squeeeeeeeze these Soviets in with the 8 people we already have onboard. At least they could give them a Coke or a Pepsi, since that flight had a soda fountain onboard.........

Though one must admit the peculiarities of STS-51F with its rush to launch then scrub then reschedule then launch then abort into weird orbit certainly would look odd based on the context.

The paranoia was real.