[1.12.1] JNSQ [0.10.0] [23 Sept 2021]

[JadeOfMaar]

15 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I'm very sad! Now I won't be able to go back and finish GPPI have a whole new set of planets to explore and looks a very very interesting

Hahahaha! I know, right?

If it means anything, Everything is 2.7x bigger so the jump is bigger so you have a little more reason to stay in stock scale for a while. And what Galileo said: "Separate install."

[linuxgurugamer]

50 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Hahahaha! I know, right?

If it means anything, Everything is 2.7x bigger so the jump is bigger so you have a little more reason to stay in stock scale for a while. And what Galileo said: "Separate install."

Understood.  And I'll just have to clear some free space on my drive, about 30 installs there now

55 minutes ago, Galileo said:

Well, Make a separately install!

This gives me a reason to finally start using 1.7

[SpaceX]

GG's all around team!

Can't wait to dive into this...

- OzzyInSpace

[ssd21345]

how well does it work with star system packs(like Other World Reboot)?

[Miracle Magician]

Oh no I accidently clicked 4 star instead of 5... WHAT HAVE I DONE I WANT TO KICK MYSELF IN THE FACE

[Miracle Magician]

1 hour ago, ssd21345 said:

how well does it work with star system packs(like Other World Reboot)?

My guess is that it will be compatible, but since this is a 2.7X resized planet pack, so those planets from other planet packs will look disproportionly small; and if tho star is too close to Kerbol, maybe two systems will overlap with eath other.

And I ran this planet pack with principia just now. Guess what planet become unstable? It's Jool's moons again? It's newly added planets? No, it's Minmus.

Seems Minmus is too far away from Kerbin, it just casually drifts away and starts to wander around Kerbol. Suprisingly except minmus, all the other planets are stable.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Miracle Magician

[OhioBob]

1 hour ago, ssd21345 said:

how well does it work with star system packs(like Other World Reboot)?

JNSQ is designed to be a standalone system.  We do not recommended its use in combination with any other planet packs.

[Miracle Magician]

@Kopernicus:FINAL
{
	@Body[Minmus]
	{
		@Orbit
		{
			@semiMajorAxis *= 0.75
		}
	}
	@Body[Mun]
	{
		@Orbit
		{
			@semiMajorAxis *= 0.5
		}
	}
}

Well, I did this and the kerbin system is stable again. The cause of minmus drifting away is simply it is too far away from kerbin, because now mun is at the place where minmus was at before.

[OhioBob]

55 minutes ago, Miracle Magician said:

And I ran this planet pack with principia just now. Guess what planet become unstable? It's Jool's moons again? It's newly added planets? No, it's Minmus.

Seems Minmus is too far away from Kerbin, it just casually drifts away and starts to wander around Kerbol. Suprisingly except minmus, all the other planets are stable.

That's interesting.  Making JNSQ work stablly with Principia was a goal of mine.  Unfortunately I ran out of time and didn't get a chance to test it prior to release.  I had concerns about Minmus, but I feared that placing it too close to Mun would cause its orbit to become unstable.  It looks like maybe I overcompensated.

Is there anyway you can try decreasing Minmus' orbit until you find something that's stable?  If so, I'll change it for the net update.  Your help would be appreciated.

(edit)

Well, it looks like you did what I requested while I was writing that.  Unfortunately I don't want to change Mun's orbit.  I'd like to find a way to stabilize Minmus without changing Mun.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by OhioBob

[Miracle Magician]

43 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Well, it looks like you did what I requested while I was writing that.  Unfortunately I don't want to change Mun's orbit.  I'd like to find a way to stabilize Minmus without changing Mun.

I remember someone mentioned somewhere that retrograde/resonance orbit helps with stablizing planets. Actually I don't want to move mun either, because JNSQ is a 2.7X planet pack, which is meant to bring realistic difficulties to KSP, and Mun's distance to kerbin is proportional to real-life Earth to moon distance. Did I guess that right?

43 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Is there anyway you can try decreasing Minmus' orbit until you find something that's stable?  If so, I'll change it for the net update.  Your help would be appreciated.

Unfortunately I don't have my laptop in my hand right now. I'll try tweaking minmus's orbit a few hours later, lemme see whether I can get a non-weird looking stable orbit!

Edited May 31, 2019 by Miracle Magician
Muh English grammar not good...

[Yakvi]

Just want to reiterate how awesome this whole pack looks. Great job and congrats on release!

[OhioBob]

19 hours ago, Miracle Magician said:

I remember someone mentioned somewhere that retrograde/resonance orbit helps with stablizing planets. Acutually I don't want to move mun either, because JNSQ is a 2.7X planet pack, which is meant to bring realistic difficulties to KSP, and Mun's distance to kerbin is proportional to real-life Earth to moon distance. Did I guessed that right?

Mun's orbit is close to that of our real life moon (at 1/4 scale of course), but not exact.  Mun is a little smaller than Moon, so its a little closer.  Mun's distance was determine by simulating the tidal interaction between it and Kerbin.  Kerbin's rotation slows, Mun becomes tidally locked and slowly drifts away, and angular momentum is conserved.  I placed Mun at the distance it should be after about 4.5 billions years.  Of course that's assuming all the input variables are correct.  But generally Mun is about where it should be, and I'm not changing it or else I tamper with the realism of the system.  The problem is Minmus.  If a realistic and stable orbit cannot be found for Minmus with Mun in its current orbit, then I'll have to find some other solution.

One of my problems is that I've never used Principia and have no idea how it works.  I don't know how to test the stability of an orbit using Principia.

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by OhioBob

[Miracle Magician]

12 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

One of my problems is that I've never used Principia and have no idea how it works.  I don't know how to test the stability of an orbit.

Actually, I didn't do any test. I'm not good at computer at all! What I did is only installed principia, opened tracking station, used bettertimewarp to warp some 100 years and see whether all the planets are at the place where it should be.

Maybe you can ask for help from Principia's developers about how to do an actual test. After all Principia was originally an orbit stability testing tool!

Edited May 31, 2019 by Miracle Magician

[OhioBob]

5 minutes ago, Miracle Magician said:

Actually, I didn't do any test. I'm not good at computer at all! What I did is only installed principia, opened tracking station, used bettertimewarp to warp some 100 years and see whether all the planets are at the place where it should be.

OK, sounds like I just need to get bettertimewarp.  I installed Principia but I don't know if it's working; I don't see anything different.  What versions of KSP and Principia are you using?

 

[Miracle Magician]

6 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

OK, sounds like I just need to get bettertimewarp.  I installed Principia but I don't know if it's working; I don't see anything different.  What versions of KSP and Principia are you using?

 

I'm using fatou with 1.7.0 right now. But since Principia only publishes a new version every new moon this version only has source code released, not the binary, so I compiled it myself. Version fary has some glitches and is not compatible with 1.7.0 so I did that.

If you want, I can send a copy of my binary to you because the compile time of Principia is so long, and during that time CPU usage will reach 100% and the computer will almost freeze.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Miracle Magician

[Dr.Bucket]

Thank you very much for the amazing work you put to deliver a whole new and unique experience to the game, I'm gonna try it now, the visuals and concept look very promising. Merci beaucoup Galileo 

[Quoniam Kerman]

16 hours ago, Zorg said:

Congratulations to all the members of Team Galileo. I've only visited a few bodies but all I can say is that the mod is well named.... truly breathtaking stuff!! And a high quality native 1/4 scale system is something the community desperately needed. Thank you guys so much.

  Hide contents

Our little Mun, its all grown up now (by 2.7x ). Cant wait to check out the added bodies.

 

Are you sure it is the Mun? and not the Moon? Good looking surface we've got here.

 

If I understand correctly, this planet pack is somewhat halfway between Stock solar system and RSS in terms of scale. Interesting step for those who want to gradually progess towards the RSS/RO configuration.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Quoniam Kerman

[Zorg]

28 minutes ago, Quoniam Kerman said:

Are you sure it is the Mun? and not the Moon? Good looking surface we've got here.

 

If I understand correctly, this planet pack is somewhat halfway between Stock solar system and RSS in terms of scale. Interesting step for those who want to gradually progess towards the RSS/RO configuration.

Haha yes JNSQ has finally cured the RSS envy for me. A lot of my favourite mods lack full RO configs so quarter scale is the best choice; well balanced part mods behave pretty close to IRL counterparts at 2.5/2.7x without needing additional adjustments ( via SMURFF etc). Thats as important to me as much as the challenge factor.

[Barzon]

So, uh, do I install the JNSQ .zip and the JNSQ.exe? or just the zip file?

EDIT:
nvm, its fine. someone helped me.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Barzon Kerman

[Whirligig Girl]

9 hours ago, OhioBob said:

That's interesting.  Making JNSQ work stablly with Principia was a goal of mine.  Unfortunately I ran out of time and didn't get a chance to test it prior to release.  I had concerns about Minmus, but I feared that placing it too close to Mun would cause its orbit to become unstable.  It looks like maybe I overcompensated.

Is there anyway you can try decreasing Minmus' orbit until you find something that's stable?  If so, I'll change it for the net update.  Your help would be appreciated.

(edit)

Well, it looks like you did what I requested while I was writing that.  Unfortunately I don't want to change Mun's orbit.  I'd like to find a way to stabilize Minmus without changing Mun.

 

I would suggest making it a Trojan of Mun, but while that would work and it would be realistic in the real world, Principia makes it awfully hard to define a working trojan orbit because of how it handles conversion between keplerian orbital elements and the actual motion of bodies. In my experience with a similar setup, I couldn't get a trojan moon to work in principia without giving up and tilting the trojan at 30 degrees. The problem isn't that trojans are very fragile and any slight movement off center will destabilize them, it's more that the velocities are set up wrong in some way.

Perhaps some other 1:1 resonance could work, something like Cruithne's orbit around the Sun and its resonance with the Earth. But with Kerbin instead of Sun and Mun instead of Earth. Perhaps inspiration can be taken from spacecraft orbits like TESS, which is in an eccentric 2:1 resonance with the Moon.

The trouble is that the Earth/Moon system is all wrong for supporting multiple moons, at least without getting the second moon really close to the Earth. With close-in Mun there's no problem since there's plenty of stable space beyond the Mun to fit in Minmus, but unless you move Mun in (and presumably shrink it to make sure it eclipses the Sun, I imagine) it'll be difficult to find any conventional orbit that Minmus will fit in.

[OhioBob]

21 minutes ago, GregroxMun said:

Perhaps some other 1:1 resonance could work, something like Cruithne's orbit around the Sun and its resonance with the Earth. But with Kerbin instead of Sun and Mun instead of Earth. Perhaps inspiration can be taken from spacecraft orbits like TESS, which is in an eccentric 2:1 resonance with the Moon.

We actually experimented with that already, but moved Minmus back because we thought it made getting to Minmus too difficult.  But it is an option we may have to reconsider.

21 minutes ago, GregroxMun said:

The trouble is that the Earth/Moon system is all wrong for supporting multiple moons, at least without getting the second moon really close to the Earth. With close-in Mun there's no problem since there's plenty of stable space beyond the Mun to fit in Minmus, but unless you move Mun in (and presumably shrink it to make sure it eclipses the Sun, I imagine) it'll be difficult to find any conventional orbit that Minmus will fit in.

Yep, I suspected from the beginning that Minmus was going to be a problem.  It was one of the bodies I was most worried about it terms of orbital stability.

 

[Tyko]

Congrats on the public release!!! 

WRT to Minmus, I was really excited at the prospect of using a Cruithne orbit.

If I understand it correctly you could reach it any time you wanted, but there'd be certain times (once a year??) when it would be a lot easier to reach. This seems like an excellent step towards longer missions before you go entirely interplanetary. As long as TWP could handle the calculations I'd suggest going for it.

If you've already done the calculations could I suggest that you release the Cruithne orbit version as an optional patch and let people play around with it?

[theJesuit]

My two cents for Minmus...

Put it in orbit around Eeloo as a Charon equivalent.

[JadeOfMaar]

22 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

My two cents for Minmus...

Put it in orbit around Eeloo as a Charon equivalent.

Eeloo has two moons already. And it's going to be pretty lonely in near-Kerbin space if Minmus goes away like that, so it's quite unlikely that this will happen.

4 hours ago, Tyko said:

If you've already done the calculations could I suggest that you release the Cruithne orbit version as an optional patch and let people play around with it?

That config existed for a brief time. I didn't test with TWP but KAC would say "infinity" for the transfer window alarm (for obvious reasons... sharing Kerbin's orbital period), and somehow I couldn't get past needing 4km/s for the bulk of the major transfer burn...that's more than the dV map's projected 2900m/s average to get at Duna.

[Miracle Magician]

46 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I didn't test with TWP

BTW, this is TWP's readout for Cruithne orbit version of minmus (DeltaV should divide by 2 since I'm playing 4X resized version)

That's almost 6Km/s of ejection dV!!! Don't know whether it is accurate though since it's in such a special orbit...