a discussion on KSP, Mods and making money

[vvaris]

I have been modding for KSP a little while now and having a blast. So much in fact it's eaten all my free time.. I work as a freelancer doing simple 3d related work, although I love 3d modelling, modding for KSP is much more rewarding and fun. I wish I had more time to spend on modding KSP or other games I love.

Making money trough modding is next to impossible. Nevertheless I would like to hear your opinions about modder's who ask for donations or include adds in their posts. As far as I know is not allowed at KSP forums, and I'm interested if any game, or game forums allow this. I'm also interested in you opinions about anything related to monetizing mods.

[fnordianslip]

I'd be happy with modders inviting donations. I'm less keen on ads. Not that my opinion counts for much, other than that I have donated to open source projects in the past and so am likely to do so again in the future.

[sal_vager]

As you rightly assume vvaris, trying to monetize your add-ons on the KSP forums would be in breach of the rules, and I suspect a majority of members would be against charging or being charged for add-ons.

I'll just remind you of part of Rule 8

Section 8: Miscellaneous Issues

A user shall not: At any time advertise an off forum feature, service, or society- incentive does not matter.

Edited September 3, 2012 by sal_vager

[ledo1222]

Why should modelers get money for something that adds no value to the game?

(Not saying your work is bad)

By value i mean the End product of the game, KSP.

You making a Model is your way off adding to the game, and should not be profitable in no way.

But i do understand you put your Time and effort into the models and they do hold a special value to you.

Money should only be given to the Dev team and only them. they worked on KSP, why should some random Modeller get money for a Mod part and not them?!

But that's my Opinion.

[Dani-Sang]

Mod for free, the fact that you spending your free time on it is your problem and your problem only.

Hell, if I would charge my freelance prices on the time I spend on my mods, I would have asked now around the 6000 euros and rising.

Just in principle you shouldn't charge at all for your mods because mods were never meaned to be made off. Those who do are just money grabbers and greedy bastards.

[Capt'n Skunky]

This is my opinion only and not a statement from Squad.

I don't see anything wrong from someone making money of their work. The Section 8 forum rules do not forbid users from advertising anything on their own site, only here on the KSP forums. As long as the content is 100% your original work, there are no issues I can foresee.

The reason why some modding communities last so long is the wealth of free content they provide. While I don't see a problem with people asking for donations, outright selling of them probably won't succeed long.

Arrr!

Capt'n Skunky

This is my opinion only and not a statement from Squad.

[LaydeeDem]

If I enjoy modding, why should I expect pay? It's not like it's my job.

[vvaris]

Good points and good discussion! I don't approve selling mods either, unless they are total overhaul mods and developers and modder's can come to an agreement how the profits are divided. Mods should be free and easy to find and download. If one would seek to "profit" from mods, probably directing traffic to one's own site would be the best option. This is grey area since the rules forbid advertising, so giving a link to your own site where there would be donation button or adds is questionable. I suspect that the money you could make this way is next to zero anyway.

I have studied game development and I sometimes feel that some (not Squad afaik) developers can be a little overprotective of their games. To me it seems that there are games today that are bought in great quantities just to play certain mods. In my opinion these mods just advertise and sell games. For these reasons I don't understand developers that don't support their modding communities.

In my school there was saying that "modding for games is like shoveling money to developers pockets". While this is true the amount of money you are shoveling isn't that big unless your mod is something like Dayz. Modding also benefits you because it develops the skills you use to create the mods. I suspect that in future there will be a competition of modders between game companies. When companies start to reward to best of the best modders, that is going to attract more modders to the game.

[togfox]

I'd donate for a mod I use a lot. There are some mods in KSP I simply couldn't live without. No, seriously, without this nameless mod, I wouldn't play KSP until it was integrated.

I wouldn't pay a lot - I mean, I paid $15 for the whole game, the amount I'd donate to a mod that offers a fraction of that would be ... well ... a fraction of $15.

[Neomatt]

Selling is right-out (and really, people would just get it for free somewhere), but are donations really out?

I mean, if someone makes a big mod and says "hey, if you want to buy me a beverage, use the button below", just as a way to say thanks, would it go against the rules or not?

It's always nice to get a few bucks (not a living, mind you) as a reward for your hobby work.

[vvaris]

Selling is right-out (and really, people would just get it for free somewhere), but are donations really out?

I mean, if someone makes a big mod and says "hey, if you want to buy me a beverage, use the button below", just as a way to say thanks, would it go against the rules or not?

It's always nice to get a few bucks (not a living, mind you) as a reward for your hobby work.

I think that's a bit grey area but I suspect that it's not allowed. As sal_vager pointed out:

Section 8: Miscellaneous Issues

A user shall not: At any time advertise an off forum feature, service, or society- incentive does not matter.

[DYJ]

This is my opinion only and not a statement from Squad.

Morally I see no issue with asking for donations or using systems to generate ad revenue, because what we do as mod authors is more or less making content for Squads game for free. It should however be done in a non obtrusive way that doesn't scare people away.

In a perfect world a simple "Donate here" button would be enough to let modmakers quit their dayjobs and work on modding full time, but since that isn't the case I doubt that monetizing mods can be done well enough to be worth the trouble.

Everyones motivation for releasing mods vary, I personally do it to as an attempt benefit the game and it's community not myself nor Squad. And I feel the that the best way to do this is to refrain from monetization and do my best to encourage others to take up modding.

This is my opinion only and not a statement from Squad.

[papagoose]

The notion that all mods should be free is ridiculous. An ideal example is the third-party addon community for Microsoft Flight Simulator. Companies such as Precision Manuals (PMDG) create an aircraft that can only be used within the proprietary simulator, and they charge for it about as much as FSX itself costs, if not more! Of course, the quality of the addon matters a lot- and whether it would actually work financially here is a completely different issue. But the question is not whether all mods should be free, it is to what extent marketing and business should be done on the official KSP forum. It is not as though PMDG are able to advertise on the Microsoft website. The question is where the line should be drawn- is it banning a paypal donation link in the forum post? What about a link to your own page that has a donate button on it? What if the only way to download the mod is from your own website...should you then have your own forum to discuss your work? Does having a KSP forum thread about your paid mod constitute an advertisement for it? These are the real hard questions

[vvaris]

The notion that all mods should be free is ridiculous. An ideal example is the third-party addon community for Microsoft Flight Simulator. Companies such as Precision Manuals (PMDG) create an aircraft that can only be used within the proprietary simulator, and they charge for it about as much as FSX itself costs, if not more! Of course, the quality of the addon matters a lot- and whether it would actually work financially here is a completely different issue. But the question is not whether all mods should be free, it is to what extent marketing and business should be done on the official KSP forum. It is not as though PMDG are able to advertise on the Microsoft website. The question is where the line should be drawn- is it banning a paypal donation link in the forum post? What about a link to your own page that has a donate button on it? What if the only way to download the mod is from your own website...should you then have your own forum to discuss your work? Does having a KSP forum thread about your paid mod constitute an advertisement for it? These are the real hard questions

Well said and good example! I think these are really good questions every game developer has to ask from themselves. I wonder if there has been any research done in to how mods influence games success or how much money there is involved in modding nowadays.

[TheCardinal]

I fully disagree with ledo1222 that mods don't add value to a game. A mod adds something to a game. It might be something as simple as a different texture, it might also be as complex as several parts and plugins. They all have in common that the game becomes more pleasurable for the player, so it DOES add value to the game. That doesn't mean that every mod should have a price attached to it. I certainly wouldn't buy a mod unless it offered something extremely important (to me that is). Asking for a donation is an entirely different matter provided nobody is obliged to do so. There are a few mods i'm certainly willing to donate an amount for but not for the majority of mods.

[SkyHook]

I think that collecting money, however it is done, for mods makes sense, and is not shameful in any way. I know that some modders and modelers can easily put in time equal for one work week (40hrs) without charging a single dime. I think that intellectual property of any kind, and of good quality, is more that deserving of my money, especially if it is low-cost.

The same goes for KSP itself. The enjoyment and hours that I could conceivably get from some content is well over the 100-hour mark. Anything that can be used/enjoyed for well over 100 hours is worth what I might pay for it (in the sense of KSP, $15)! Should modders be compensated for their work? I would have ZERO problem with it if they did.

[dikkjo]

Hey everyone,

as a long term gamer / developer 4 fun / IT guy for profit and linux deviant for hobby I find this discussion very interesting.

From my experience making money with mods its totally not the way to go, this does not mean you will find noone willing to donate a few bucks, but you will never be able to refund any of your worked hours anyway.

Instead what i saw a lot is "modders" beeing able to find a good job because they have demonstrated their values in a random community and KSP is the living example...and believe me this is the only way you will see real bucks for your work.

Also I wouldn't take Microsoft Flight as an example of widely used economic model, Microsoft beeing the only "gaming" company who's needs a specialized company to produce playable mods at the cost of some exclusive benefits of low league IT.

The real question is what drives a community? Do you see any economic/material reason?

My advice is keep it fun or let it go.

[vvaris]

Hey everyone,

as a long term gamer / developer 4 fun / IT guy for profit and linux deviant for hobby I find this discussion very interesting.

From my experience making money with mods its totally not the way to go, this does not mean you will find noone willing to donate a few bucks, but you will never be able to refund any of your worked hours anyway.

Instead what i saw a lot is "modders" beeing able to find a good job because they have demonstrated their values in a random community and KSP is the living example...and believe me this is the only way you will see real bucks for your work.

Also I wouldn't take Microsoft Flight as an example of widely used economic model, Microsoft beeing the only "gaming" company who's needs a specialized company to produce playable mods at the cost of some exclusive benefits of low league IT.

The real question is what drives a community? Do you see any economic/material reason?

My advice is keep it fun or let it go.

Yes I don't expect to make living of modding, but few hours free time per month would be great achievement. Maybe Microsoft isn't a good example, but how about garry's mod?

[dikkjo]

Maybe Microsoft isn't a good example, but how about garry's mod?

Ahh LOL, every rule has an exception! well, at least in italian....

Anyway i dont see it as a mod, its a full "game modding engine" without 3d engine .... and it allows you to mod a set of games based on the same engine

[Vanamonde]

I'm puzzled that no one in this discussion has pointed out that a mod is a modification; a modification of someone else's code. You're taking someone else's intellectual property and modifying it. A nice company can see that this might make the game richer and allow or even encourage it, as long as it's done for free. But that doesn't mean they should like the idea of someone else accepting money for a product that is mostly the company's own work.

[Capt'n Skunky]

I'm puzzled that no one in this discussion has pointed out that a mod is a modification; a modification of someone else's code. You're taking someone else's intellectual property and modifying it. A nice company can see that this might make the game richer and allow or even encourage it, as long as it's done for free. But that doesn't mean they should like the idea of someone else accepting money for a product that is mostly the company's own work.

That's not quite true and the reason the forums refer to them as AddOns. There is no modifying of Squad's code going on. In fact, that would be against the EULA. People are creating 100% original code and adding it to the game. Yes, some may take vanilla parts and modify them, but anything beyond that is adding not modifying. It's these works that are 100% original that would be the focus of making money as you wouldn't have license to sell modified vanilla parts.

Cheers!

Capt'n Skunky

KSP Community Manager

[Vanamonde]

I see your point Captain, but I'm not clear about the specifics. It seems to me that even if you are writing all the code yourself, but the product still wouldn't run without being part of someone else's software, then you owe something to the originators of the parent software. For example, you couldn't take a KSP mod and run it as a self-contained game, nor insert it into World of Warcraft and have robotic spaceships fighting orcs. The resulting product may have been indepedently produced, but still requires and profits from the work the guys at Squad put into the original software, so wouldn't they have a right to compensation? Or, it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding how this works.

[Capt'n Skunky]

Okay, lets use the good old car analogy. Lots of companies make parts for cars that can be considered addon and/or mods, but the car manufacturers see no income from these products. Sure, I can't do much with that uber turbo charger without a car to put it on, but the turbo charger manufacturer doesn't owe Ford a dime on the sales of said parts.

Many inventions that people have made their fortunes on have been improvements on existing designs and products. In fact, that's the best way to make a fortune in the invention market, improve an existing product. It's a lot easier than trying to create a brand new product.

Cheers!

Capt'n Skunky

KSP Community Manager

[jonathan_92]

My understanding is that Nova Silisko was originally a modder. Is that correct? Perhaps if Squad gave the incintive of adding certain mods to future vanilla versions of the game, and possibly paying the modders for their work, that might stimulate a lot of very high quality works. You could very well expand your team pretty easily this way. As an indie game fan, I love the idea of a game created by a massive community of modders. I have friends that are actually looking for 3D modelling work/internships, and who would probably love to put this game on their resumes'. Just a thought

[LaydeeDem]

Payment or not, I'm still going to procrastinate on my mod projects.