Reduced science rewards question (transmitting vs. lugging it home)

[jpinard]

I'm trying to maximize my science and I don't quite understand this part of the game.  I'll use the temperature gauge and EVA as an example.  Say I'm in orbit around the moon.  If I take a temp reading and transmit it, I don't get as much science as if I lugged that science back home and landed with it.  Is the penalty for transmitting it - that science - gone forever?  Or can I re-do the test and re-transmit the stuff I lost by transmitting again?  If so, should I be able to do it right away, or do I need to do another orbit before I can again, or do I need a whole new trip?

 

Thanks for answering another dumb question by me

Edited July 2, 2019 by jpinard

[Geschosskopf]

2 hours ago, jpinard said:

I'm trying to maximize my science and I don't quite understand this part of the game.  I'll use the temperature gauge and EVA as an example.  Say I'm in orbit around the moon.  If I take a temp reading and transmit it, I don't get as much science as if I lugged that science back home and landed with it.  Is the penalty for transmitting it - that science - gone forever?  Or can I re-do the test and re-transmit the stuff I lost by transmitting again?  If so, should I be able to do it right away, or do I need to do another orbit before I can again, or do I need a whole new trip?

Most experiments cannot transmit all the science possible for a given location.  Even if you do them multiple times in the same place, you'll never get any more science by continued transmissions.  For these experiments, the only way to get all the science is to bring the data home.  And for a lot of these, you need multiple returns to get everything.  Goo and Science Jr need 3-4 returned reports to get every drop of science, although there's not usually enough to worry about after only 2.

A few things (crew and EVA reports, and the arm scans by the largest arms) transmit 100% value.  They'e one and done either way, no difference transmitted or returned.

There has been a long-standing gripe that all the small instruments (temperature, pressure, graviolis, and seismic) should be 100% transmittable because their data is simple numbers.  They're not like goo and the materials bay where there's some physical object to study.  But the game wants to force you to send crewed missions (which presumably return) and to do landings and/or multiple trips.  Thus, things are as they are.

[jpinard]

9 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

A few things (crew and EVA reports, and the arm scans by the largest arms) transmit 100% value.  They'e one and done either way, no difference transmitted or returned.

That is very important.  Did not realize that.

Also, thank you so much for going into detail.  It finally makes sense to me after all these years.

Cheers!

[bewing]

Just wanted to clarify:

for the science instruments that need multiple copies in order to get close to the theoretical maximum points -- if you transmit a copy, and then lug another copy home, you get more points faster than if you just lug a single copy home.

 

[Zhetaan]

In order:

4 hours ago, jpinard said:

Is the penalty for transmitting it - that science - gone forever?

No.  The idea is that there is a certain amount that you can transmit, but the rest must be returned for recovery at Kerbin.  I believe the temperature experiment transmits half; once you transmit the first half, you absolutely can bring another temperature measurement home from the same biome and get the other half.  The catch is that when you transmit the experiment, it uses up that experiment, so you have to collect another measurement to recover.  That's easy enough when you're in orbit, but if you, for example, landed on the Mun, collected a temperature reading from the midlands, returned to orbit where your orbiter (and antenna) waits, and transmitted from there, then you would have to land again in the midlands to get another temperature reading.  It's best to either take science containers to keep multiple copies of experiments or else to take an antenna and a lot of electrical power to transmit from wherever you are when you collect the science.

Although perhaps the Mun is not the best example.  If you are doing missions at Jool or some other place where it takes years to return, transmitting instead of just recovering in the first place makes a lot more sense.

4 hours ago, jpinard said:

Or can I re-do the test and re-transmit the stuff I lost by transmitting again?

No.  Whatever portion of the experiment is transmissible is a hard limit.  If your experiment is half transmissible, then transmitting again will not send the other half; you must return it to Kerbin to get the rest of its value, as @Geschosskopf indicated.

However, a lot of experiments are set up so that they do not return full value the first time.  Mystery Goo is like that, the Science Jr. is like that, surface samples are like that, and there are a few others.  Let's say that the Mystery Goo, for example, is set up so that the first return (from a particular location) is good for 80% of the full value.  The second time you return the experiment, you get 80% of what's left, or 16% of the full value.  The third time, you get 3.2%.  The fourth, you get .6%.  The transmissible science follows the same pattern:  let's say that the Mystery Goo only has 40% transmissible science.  The first transmission sends 32% of full value.  If you take a second Goo observation, you can transmit that for 6.4%.  There probably isn't much point to a third transmission.

Before you plug these numbers into spread sheets, please understand that I made them up; the point is to illustrate how it works, not give hard numbers that you can use to plan a mission.  I may have the mathematical progression off too, but again, the point is that there are diminishing returns.  It may be to your advantage to transmit one copy but recover two copies of a given experiment.  In that case, you need two science containers (not necessarily the actual science container part; a command pod is also a science container).  As @bewing wrote above, it gets more points faster to transmit right away and then bring a second copy home.

5 hours ago, jpinard said:

If so, should I be able to do it right away, or do I need to do another orbit before I can again, or do I need a whole new trip?

You can take another measurement right away; there is no 'cooldown' period.  There are some pseudo-exceptions:  if you are using a Goo or Science Jr., then you need to reset the experiments with a scientist before you can run them again.  On the other hand, there is nothing preventing you from taking multiple Goo and Jr. modules and using them one after another without bothering to reset them.

On the gripping hand, that can get fairly expensive and put you on the wrong side of the part count limit early on.

[Geschosskopf]

2 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

In that case, you need two science containers (not necessarily the actual science container part; a command pod is also a science container).  As @bewing wrote above, it gets more points faster to transmit right away and then bring a second copy home.

You can take another measurement right away; there is no 'cooldown' period.  There are some pseudo-exceptions:  if you are using a Goo or Science Jr., then you need to reset the experiments with a scientist before you can run them again.  On the other hand, there is nothing preventing you from taking multiple Goo and Jr. modules and using them one after another without bothering to reset them.

Now I have a question about data storage when it comes to returning multiple copies of the same data to get the most Science! points.....

It's always been the case before, and still seems to be the case today, that the only things with limits on storing multiple copies of the same data are crew pods, not the ship as a whole.  Thus, it has always been and still is possible to have, say, 4 Goos on your ship, run them all in the same place, leave the data inside them, and return them all to Kerbin to get all possible points.  But, if you remove all 4 data sets and try to put them in a crew pod, the pod will only accept 1 and you have to dump the other 3.   Thus, since Science! first became a thing, I've always returned multiple experiment parts with data inside along with the crew pod to avoid this problem.  I had never, prior to 1.7.1, ever used a Science Container even once.  After all, its description makes it sound like a mere re-entry pod to return data from a ship that otherwise won't be landing.

But then I heard that the containers count as a separate place to store data, so that you could bring back 2 copies in just 2 parts, 1 in the pod and 1 in the container, thus saving a lot of partcount and rocket costs.  Not only do you not have to lift multiple copies of experiments, you don't have to land them, either.  So I tried this in 1.7.1 and it did NOT work.  I had only 1 of each experiment part on the ship, plus a Science Container,  I landed, ran all the experiments, collected all their data, and stuffed them into the Science Container.  Then I ran the experiments again and attempted to stuff those data into the crew pod.  And I got the message that the ship already contained those data (even though in the Science Container, not the pod), so I had to dump the 2nd set of results.  As a result, I have gone back to NOT using Science Containers.

So, what's the story?  Am I doing something wrong, are Science Containers broken, or are they, as their description implies, merely re-entry pods?

[bewing]

26 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

bring back 2 copies in just 2 parts, 1 in the pod and 1 in the container

That is exactly correct. Additionally, the Miniscience container has an automated "Collect All" button on it, that will grab one copy of every experiment on the ship and store it in the container.

So you must have done something wrong. However, you do have to make sure that you either use a Kerbal or the "Collect All" button to get the experiments out of the pod before you try putting a second copy of the experiments into the pod.

[Zhetaan]

32 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

So, what's the story?  Am I doing something wrong, are Science Containers broken, or are they, as their description implies, merely re-entry pods?

That's odd.  I've never had a problem using both a crewed pod and an experiment storage unit on the same vessel to carry duplicates of an experiment.  It requires that the experiments be loaded into both, though, and while the 'Collect All' function of the storage unit is sometimes helpful, if I'm already on EVA, then I usually put two copies of everything on my Kerbal and visit both the container and the pod to store data.

Edit:  Ninja'd by @bewing

Edited July 3, 2019 by Zhetaan

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

That is exactly correct. Additionally, the Miniscience container has an automated "Collect All" button on it, that will grab one copy of every experiment on the ship and store it in the container.

So you must have done something wrong. However, you do have to make sure that you either use a Kerbal or the "Collect All" button to get the experiments out of the pod before you try putting a second copy of the experiments into the pod.

 

1 hour ago, Zhetaan said:

That's odd.  I've never had a problem using both a crewed pod and an experiment storage unit on the same vessel to carry duplicates of an experiment.  It requires that the experiments be loaded into both, though, and while the 'Collect All' function of the storage unit is sometimes helpful, if I'm already on EVA, then I usually put two copies of everything on my Kerbal and visit both the container and the pod to store data.

Edit:  Ninja'd by @bewing

Well, like I said, that was 1.7.1.  I haven't tried it in 1.7.2.

But yeah, I had a scientist go EVA, gather all the data, reset the Goo and Science Jr., and then transfer the data into the Science Container.  Then I repeated the process but this time the Scientist tried to board the pod, and I got the message that the ship/pod/whatever already had those data and I had to dump the 2nd copies.  I did not try the "Collect All" button because I did not know such a thing existed.

The Science Container was attached directly above the crew pod.  So it could be I mis-clicked, putting the data in the pod instead of the containter.  Even though I'm pretty sure the container was highlighted when I right-clicked on it to transfer the data.  This being my 1st use of a container, I was paying close attention.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Geschosskopf

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, like I said, that was 1.7.1.  I haven't tried it in 1.7.2.

Shouldn't matter. It's worked like that from when science containers were introduced.

[jpinard]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:55 PM, Zhetaan said:

In order:

No.  The idea is that there is a certain amount that you can transmit, but the rest must be returned for recovery at Kerbin.  I believe the temperature experiment transmits half; once you transmit the first half, you absolutely can bring another temperature measurement home from the same biome and get the other half.  The catch is that when you transmit the experiment, it uses up that experiment, so you have to collect another measurement to recover.  That's easy enough when you're in orbit, but if you, for example, landed on the Mun, collected a temperature reading from the midlands, returned to orbit where your orbiter (and antenna) waits, and transmitted from there, then you would have to land again in the midlands to get another temperature reading.  It's best to either take science containers to keep multiple copies of experiments or else to take an antenna and a lot of electrical power to transmit from wherever you are when you collect the science.

Although perhaps the Mun is not the best example.  If you are doing missions at Jool or some other place where it takes years to return, transmitting instead of just recovering in the first place makes a lot more sense.

No.  Whatever portion of the experiment is transmissible is a hard limit.  If your experiment is half transmissible, then transmitting again will not send the other half; you must return it to Kerbin to get the rest of its value, as @Geschosskopf indicated.

However, a lot of experiments are set up so that they do not return full value the first time.  Mystery Goo is like that, the Science Jr. is like that, surface samples are like that, and there are a few others.  Let's say that the Mystery Goo, for example, is set up so that the first return (from a particular location) is good for 80% of the full value.  The second time you return the experiment, you get 80% of what's left, or 16% of the full value.  The third time, you get 3.2%.  The fourth, you get .6%.  The transmissible science follows the same pattern:  let's say that the Mystery Goo only has 40% transmissible science.  The first transmission sends 32% of full value.  If you take a second Goo observation, you can transmit that for 6.4%.  There probably isn't much point to a third transmission.

Before you plug these numbers into spread sheets, please understand that I made them up; the point is to illustrate how it works, not give hard numbers that you can use to plan a mission.  I may have the mathematical progression off too, but again, the point is that there are diminishing returns.  It may be to your advantage to transmit one copy but recover two copies of a given experiment.  In that case, you need two science containers (not necessarily the actual science container part; a command pod is also a science container).  As @bewing wrote above, it gets more points faster to transmit right away and then bring a second copy home.

You can take another measurement right away; there is no 'cooldown' period.  There are some pseudo-exceptions:  if you are using a Goo or Science Jr., then you need to reset the experiments with a scientist before you can run them again.  On the other hand, there is nothing preventing you from taking multiple Goo and Jr. modules and using them one after another without bothering to reset them.

On the gripping hand, that can get fairly expensive and put you on the wrong side of the part count limit early on.

 

What communication device is strong enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun?  And can I do it if I haven't put any other communication satellites intro orbit?

On 7/2/2019 at 7:31 PM, bewing said:

Just wanted to clarify:

for the science instruments that need multiple copies in order to get close to the theoretical maximum points -- if you transmit a copy, and then lug another copy home, you get more points faster than if you just lug a single copy home.

 

Thank you.  I needed that clarification!

[Zhetaan]

1 hour ago, jpinard said:

What communication device is strong enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun?  And can I do it if I haven't put any other communication satellites intro orbit?

This is the wiki article about antenna ranges.

Antenna range is dependent on two things:  the antenna (or antennas) on the vessel, and the level of the Tracking Station (which serves as the primary Kerbin-based antenna).  The additional ground stations, if you enable them in the settings, only reduce your need to have a Kerbin-orbiting comsat network.

Essentially, if you have a Tracking Station at level two or more, then any antenna is good enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun.  If you have a Tracking Station at level one, then any antenna part that is more advanced than the built-in pod antennas is good enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun.

However, you will still need communication satellites in Mun orbit for vessels that have landed on the far side of the Mun.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Zhetaan said:

Essentially, if you have a Tracking Station at level two or more, then any antenna is good enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun.

Clarification: the built in antennas in probe cores and capsules will allow you a connection. They will not allow you to transmit science.

You MUST have at least one of the actual stick-it-on-your-ship antennas to transmit science.

Edited July 4, 2019 by 5thHorseman

[Snark]

On 7/2/2019 at 12:38 PM, jpinard said:

I'm trying to maximize my science and I don't quite understand this part of the game.  I'll use the temperature gauge and EVA as an example.  Say I'm in orbit around the moon.  If I take a temp reading and transmit it, I don't get as much science as if I lugged that science back home and landed with it.  Is the penalty for transmitting it - that science - gone forever?  Or can I re-do the test and re-transmit the stuff I lost by transmitting again?  If so, should I be able to do it right away, or do I need to do another orbit before I can again, or do I need a whole new trip?

Lots of good detailed advice above.  My own summary boils down to this:  Transmit science if you're on a one-way mission (e.g. disposable uncrewed probe), or if you  need some of your science urgently back home and don't want to wait until you return.  Otherwise, it neither hurts nor helps you in terms of total science available.  If there's an experiment somewhere that is worth a max of 100 science points, and let's say it's transmittable for 40... then any of the following scenarios can happen:

• You grab it, don't transmit, and bring it back.  You get 100 points upon returning home.
• You grab it and transmit it (getting 40 points), then grab another copy and bring that home with you.  You get 60 points upon returning home (i.e. 100 points, minus the 40 that you already transmitted).
• You grab it, transmit it for 40 points, and don't bother bringing anything home.

Multiple transmissions don't gain you anything, since you transmit everything transmittable the first time.

On 7/4/2019 at 8:51 AM, jpinard said:

What communication device is strong enough to transmit from the surface of the Mun?

Depends on what's trying to talk to it. The wiki article linked above does a pretty good job of summing it up, but the short answer is that as long as you have direct line of sight to KSC (or to other groundstations, if you have "enable extra groundstations" turned on), then even the most basic antenna (like the Communotron-16) will work fine from the Mun.

If you're trying to talk to something else (e.g. a relay satellite or something), then "what's big enough" depends on the power at both ends of the connection.