Would a space vacuum jet produce thrust?

[Spacescifi]

For this scifi discussion, we have a scifi jet that only works in vacuum. It sucks up and compresses vacuum, mixes it with dark energy, and then expels it out the back.

Would that produce thrust for space propulsion?

I guess it would depend on exhaust speed. The higher the better.

[mikegarrison]

What does this babble

48 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

It sucks up and compresses vacuum, mixes it with dark energy, and then expels it out the back.

even mean?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

What does this babble

even mean?

XD it’s Sci-fi! Things >_<...

@Spacescifi

hmmm, what kind of answer are you looking for? What dark energy is and how it works is unknown. So no one could tell you anything about it >.<

but as for the space vacuum part I think I might be able to risk a guess @_@! 

Pulling in and then expelling spacetime out the rear should (I would think) have a similar effect to a traditional drive that expelled mass out the rear. Because I think you are basically simulating that. You are kinda moving some virtual mass out of your craft. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Guest

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, Dale Christopher said:

XD it’s Sci-fi! Things >_<...

@Spacescifi

hmmm, what kind of answer are you looking for? What dark energy is and how it works is unknown. So no one could tell you anything about it >.<

but as for the space vacuum part I think I might be able to risk a guess @_@! 

Pulling in and then expelling spacetime out the rear should (I would think) have a similar effect to a traditional drive that expelled mass out the rear. Because I think you are basically simulating that. You are kinda moving some virtual mass out of your craft. 

 

I suspected as much. How do you think it would look? Would it produce any visual effect in space?

 

What science has confirmed: Space is the closest thing to a void man knows of, and yet it is'nt a true void of absolutely nothing.

Researchers say they have detected what appear to be random fluctuations at the quantum scale (really small). To someone who has a working knowledge of how vacuum quantum fluctuations work (greater than current knowledge), the flutcuations would NOT be random.

They could explain how, why, and even reliablt predict what the 'void' would do in the future.

 

There arecq whole slew of seemingly crazy scifi things that at least on paper sound possible.

Like one thing vacuum is full of is photons. 

With direct energy to mass conversion (yes I am running over the human imposed conservation of energy understanding), one could simply fly close to a star and collect and transform photons into mass.

What good it would do given the heat I don't know? Unless one could replicate mass onboard like trek replicators, only with photons. Just have to get a scifi sun bath in the process and not die.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi

[razark]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Would that produce thrust for space propulsion?

If that's what it does in your sci-fi framework, then yes.  Otherwise, it's meaningless.

[Nightside]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It sucks up and compresses vacuum

But there is nothing to suck... That said, I guess you can compress a vacuum quite a lot, infinitely even.

 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, razark said:

If that's what it does in your sci-fi framework, then yes.  Otherwise, it's meaningless.

True. Really it dawned on me that the whole reason why scifi likes constant acceleration is because of space being so mind boggingly huge. Really... scifi does not need constant acceleration if FTL is good enough. A translative FTL drive could jump a spaceship to the same speed and orbital heading as the target, being only a kilometer away. With that, even modern rockets with their pathetic delta v (fuel hog usage basically) would be viable. Crossing a kilometer for rendezvous withim vacuum is well within our wheelhouse of capability. And running outta fuel would not be as big a concern either.

 

It's like take your pick:

Really precise translative FTL: The pros are that a kilometer from the target is not far for a rocket to travel. The con is that your rockets are limited fuel.

Somewhat unprecise FTL: Pros? Well it is FTL... even if it did'nt adjust your speed and heading, and the fact that you are a lightsecond away from your target. More pros? You have and in this case need a constant acceleration drive to reach the target in a reasonable amount of time. Constant acceleration can be used for lots of things BTW. Machines. Blowing stuff up etc.

 

1 hour ago, Nightside said:

But there is nothing to suck... That said, I guess you can compress a vacuum quite a lot, infinitely even.

 

 

Nothing that we can access with modern technology or current understanding anyway.

Scifi is all about make-believe and what-if. So I do not mind if if scifi doe not jive with we understand.

Yeah... infinite compression of vacuum sounds almost like an oxymoron.

However I would find it amusing to see a solid black beam issuing from behind a vacuum jet. Since once vacuum itself is expanded what do you have left?

I got nothing.

But I can and will make the scifi assumption that once space vacuum is expanded by the beam of pure void, that beam will be what nothing truly looks like. Pure void. No quantum fluctuations. No photons traveling through it. Just nothing. Actually the edges of the beam may glow white from light coalescing around the edges. Since light surely would'nt penetrate it.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi
Scifi assumption

[kerbiloid]

Yes. It will produce a zero thrust.

[Spacescifi]

18 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Yes. It will produce a zero thrust.

 

LOL.

A scientist tells you how the vacuum jet works. Yet you ask "Does it produce thrust?"

"No."

"What's the point of making it then?"

"We had a government surplus okay? You happy now?!"

"No?"

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi

[Shpaget]

It wouldn't be the first government project based on non-existing scientific principles. 
Stargate Project

What you are proposing sounds like technobable, but at its core is using vacuum which is too well known to sound plausible. 

In the last month and a half you've stared so many topics for your sf story, and expect us to pitch in, but you still haven't decided (or at least told us) what the story is about, time setting, tech capabilities, hardness of the sf, or anything else of substance.

Why don't you develop the background and worry about technicalities later?

[Spacescifi]

47 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

It wouldn't be the first government project based on non-existing scientific principles. 
Stargate Project

What you are proposing sounds like technobable, but at its core is using vacuum which is too well known to sound plausible. 

In the last month and a half you've stared so many topics for your sf story, and expect us to pitch in, but you still haven't decided (or at least told us) what the story is about, time setting, tech capabilities, hardness of the sf, or anything else of substance.

Why don't you develop the background and worry about technicalities later?

 

Kerbal really is not about stories

 It is about KSP. 

No I have not told details because I am still working them out, and I do not think it proper to do so anyway. Not here on KSP.

I mean this is not a fanfic site, nor am I writing that.

I have learned a few things here I did not know before though. Namely just enough to realize that rockets can be used... but need some truly awesome scifi assists to justify using them in a setting... given how limited they are in space.

I guess if you want a straight answer... is that I intended to utilize multiple types of FTL and sublight propulsion.

Not just one. Now it is easy to do this. But making them not too dangerous can be hard if one is not willing to be inventive and forces things and tech to be constrained to a single way.

By now I have my answer.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi

[KerikBalm]

9 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It sucks up and compresses vacuum, mixes it with dark energy, and then expels it out the back.

Would that produce thrust for space propulsion?

I guess it would depend on exhaust speed.

It would depend on exhaust speed and energy.

A true vacuum has nothing. No reaction mass-energy means no thrust. Now you mention "dark energy"... and this sounds just like technobabble... mixing vacuum and dark energy?

Aren't they already "mixed" given that to the best of our understanding, dark energy is uniformly distributed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Quote

The density of dark energy is very low (~ 7 × 10⁻³⁰ g/cm³) much less than the density of ordinary matter or dark matter within galaxies. However, it dominates the mass–energy of the universe because it is uniform across space

Now we don't know what it is, or if its related to "virtual particles", etc, but anywhere you have the "vacuum of space", you have "dark energy", so what the heck is this mixing you're talking about?

The best possible interpretation I could imagine to fix your non-sensical fictional science (fi-sci, not sci-fi), is that it uses dark energy as reaction mass-energy.

I imagine that this would be about equivalent to using a laser/flashlight for propulsion, given the extremely low mass-energy density that you are accelerating.

Or maybe you're talking about using virtual particles, and you're talking the EM drive, which is unlikely to really work, and if so would still be very very low thrust.

[Spacescifi]

36 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

It would depend on exhaust speed and energy.

A true vacuum has nothing. No reaction mass-energy means no thrust. Now you mention "dark energy"... and this sounds just like technobabble... mixing vacuum and dark energy?

Aren't they already "mixed" given that to the best of our understanding, dark energy is uniformly distributed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Now we don't know what it is, or if its related to "virtual particles", etc, but anywhere you have the "vacuum of space", you have "dark energy", so what the heck is this mixing you're talking about?

The best possible interpretation I could imagine to fix your non-sensical fictional science (fi-sci, not sci-fi), is that it uses dark energy as reaction mass-energy.

I imagine that this would be about equivalent to using a laser/flashlight for propulsion, given the extremely low mass-energy density that you are accelerating.

Or maybe you're talking about using virtual particles, and you're talking the EM drive, which is unlikely to really work, and if so would still be very very low thrust.

 

I really was just fetching. Dark energy is sonething we really do not understand well at all.

I thought it sounded better than mixing antimatter with vacuum to make a vacuum jet.

Since that sounds silly.

[Shpaget]

3 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Kerbal really is not about stories

 It is about KSP. 

What does KSP have to do with all this?

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It is about KSP.  

You can add a resource definition like

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = LiquidVacuum
  displayName = LiquidVacuum
  abbreviation = LVc
  density = ... (put your value here)
  unitCost = ... (put your value here)
  hsp = ... (put your value here)
  flowMode = NO_FLOW
  transfer = NONE
  isTweakable = true
  volume = ... (put your value here)
}

and define an engine using it with arbitrary ISP value:

PART
{

...............
        PROPELLANT
        {
            name = LiquidVacuum
            ratio = ... (put your value here)
        }

...............
    }
}

5 hours ago, Shpaget said:

In the last month and a half you've stared so many topics for your sf story, and expect us to pitch in, but you still haven't decided (or at least told us) what the story is about, time setting, tech capabilities, hardness of the sf, or anything else of substance.

I have a bad feeling, that's the next sequel of Prometheus...

Edited July 8, 2019 by kerbiloid

[KerikBalm]

3 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

I really was just fetching. Dark energy is sonething we really do not understand well at all.

I thought it sounded better than mixing antimatter with vacuum to make a vacuum jet.

Since that sounds silly.

Mixing anything with vacuum to make a vacuum jet sounds silly. Antimatter less so than dark energy.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

Mixing anything with vacuum to make a vacuum jet sounds silly. Antimatter less so than dark energy.

 

Not to me. We have a clue what antimatter does and what it is good for.

Does not seem to be at all related to the intricacies of how vacuum works. Dark matter on the other hand we barely grasp, and they have said it has something to do with vacuum. It was a logical choice.

Antimatter= Photon torps and warp drive (yet anyone who dives deep also knows they would need negative matter too).

Dark energy: So vaguely known that scifi can play with this more than antimatter.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi

[KerikBalm]

6 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Antimatter= Photon torps and warp drive (yet anyone who dives deep also knows they would need negative matter too).

Huh, what's antimatter got to do with warp drive?

Quote

Dark energy: So vaguely known that scifi can play with this more than antimatter.

you mean so fi-sci can play with it. That's not fiction based on science, that's fictional science.

[Spacescifi]

2 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Huh, what's antimatter got to do with warp drive?

you mean so fi-sci can play with it. That's not fiction based on science, that's fictional science.

Star Trek claims they fuel warp drives with antimatter. Yet tbe current research says we would need not only a ton of energy literally, but also negative matter... which is a thing that looks good on paper but is not observed in real life.

Sure. I am not strict about the wording.

People call SW scifi when it is really just the hero's journey with a space opera veneer.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Spacescifi
Observed

[KerikBalm]

6 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Star Trek claims they fuel warp drives with antimatter.

Who cares what star trek claims, that's not based on science.

Antimatter is great as an energy source. That doesn't mean you need it/ can't substitute another energy source.

8 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

People call SW scifi when it is really just the hero's journey with a space opera veneer.

I call it fantasy in space. Star wars is really bad sci fi (not that it can't be entertaining

[YNM]

16 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

It sucks up and compresses vacuum, mixes it with dark energy, and then expels it out the back.

So basically Alcubierre Drive ?

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

So basically Alcubierre Drive ?

Nope. Alcubierre does not accelerate you. It just moves the bubble of space tbe ship is within. Iy is useless for changing speed and orbital trajectories. It merely gets a vessel closer in space to the target. Course corrections from there are made with rockets if you have nothing better.

My idea literally compresses space vacuum like air and expels it out the back for forward acceleration.

[kerbiloid]

Define "compress" for the absence of particles producing pressure.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

My idea literally compresses space vacuum like air and expels it out the back for forward acceleration.

The “compressing” of spacetime would basically create a gravity well, I’d imagine. Expelling it out of the rear is probably a bad way of looking at it, since you are probably creating a gravitational pull at the point of compression and once space left whatever environment that was causing it to contract it would return to normal. The gravitational pull wouldn’t pull you in a certain direction though... it would only be like artificially changing your center of mass and then once out of the area of effect the gravitational effect would be gone. 

12 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

A true vacuum has nothing. No reaction mass-energy means no thrust. 

Pinching space at one end of a craft and moving that through/past the craft to the rear where it becomes unpinched, should be virtually the same as moving a mass from the front to the rear and expelling it. I’d imagine you’d get translational momentum in a similar way to how the rotation of a reaction wheel gives you rotational momentum.

If you looked at it like that you wouldn’t need a big pinch either. The gravity well of 1000kg is imperceptibly small however moving a mass that size from the front of a craft and out the rear would transfer a decent amount of momentum to the craft in the opposite direction. 

It wouldn’t be a jet engine, more a caterpillar drive like in The Hunt for Red October XD

Edited July 8, 2019 by Guest

[Cheif Operations Director]

15 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

LOL.

A scientist tells you how the vacuum jet works. Yet you ask "Does it produce thrust?"

"No."

"What's the point of making it then?"

"We had a government surplus okay? You happy now?!"

"No?"

Government Surplus? Haha keep dreaming! Give the government 1,000,000 for R&D and it will spend $999,999 on donuts

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Alcubierre does not accelerate you

Unless you are in Soviet Russia...