Tweak for Navball Orientation

[XLjedi]

Anyone know if there's a simple way that I could maybe tweak a craft file so that the navball has the correct orientation for level flight?

Not looking for a full blown mod or anything...  Only need it for maybe 3 or 4 of my craft where the design includes a tilted cockpit for better ground visibility.  In which case the craft itself is flying straight & level but the navball gyro incorrectly reports that I'm in a 20° dive.  Wonder if there's a way the devs could fix that so the gyro orientation is in reference to the lateral line of the overall craft, as opposed to how the cockpit might be attached?

[Geonovast]

Eh?

This mod is a godsend for spaceplane re-entry, I can say that much.  It might help for what you want.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Geonovast

[XLjedi]

@Geonovast 

Edit:  Oh, I actually read what that mod does, and it's not what I want.  I have no problem controlling the pitch attitude and engineering the craft to fly straight and level.  The problem is, I'm flying straight and level and the gyro navball instrument says I'm in a 20° dive.  That's what I want to fix!

Edited July 19, 2019 by XLjedi

[Geonovast]

2 minutes ago, XLjedi said:

Yeah... as I said, not looking for a mod. 

Well, you did say "full blown mod", so I thought you might be ok with a pretty lightweight one.

 

You could always clip a jr docking port in somewhere, and use that for a control point.  I believe you can assign an action group to set it as the control point, and if it's the root part, I think it'll even default to it.

I don't think they'll ever do something for adjusting control point to the lateral line of a craft.  It seems pretty niche and I doubt it's worth the dev time.  Plus you'd have to consider all the times it would get it flat out wrong.

 

There may be a control point orientation hack you could do to a craft file in a similar way that the aforementioned mod does it on the fly, but that's above my pay grade.

[XLjedi]

3 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

There may be a control point orientation hack you could do to a craft file in a similar way that the aforementioned mod does it on the fly, but that's above my pay grade.

That's what I'm looking for...  I may interrogate a craft file that consists of nothing but a cockpit for a bit and see if there is any way to adjust that navball gyro.  I suspect probably not, but who knows.  It's coming more into play now that rotors and props might inspire folks to create things that may want to have a tilted cockpit for better ground visibility.

Edited July 19, 2019 by XLjedi

[Shadowmage]

7 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

You could always clip a jr docking port in somewhere, and use that for a control point.  I believe you can assign an action group to set it as the control point, and if it's the root part, I think it'll even default to it.

Pretty much this.

You can't fix it in the craft file, as a control point requires a reference to an object transform in a part, and that all needs to match whatever was specified in the control module for that part.  If things don't match up, bad things happen.

But you can add a -new- control point oriented in the proper direction, and use that as your 'control from here' part.

[XLjedi]

1 minute ago, Shadowmage said:

Pretty much this.

You can't fix it in the craft file, as a control point requires a reference to an object transform in a part, and that all needs to match whatever was specified in the control module for that part.  If things don't match up, bad things happen.

But you can add a -new- control point oriented in the proper direction, and use that as your 'control from here' part.

Not worth it then; but thanks...

[Ratwerke_Actual]

1 minute ago, Shadowmage said:

Pretty much this.

You can't fix it in the craft file, as a control point requires a reference to an object transform in a part, and that all needs to match whatever was specified in the control module for that part.  If things don't match up, bad things happen.

But you can add a -new- control point oriented in the proper direction, and use that as your 'control from here' part.

Agreed. This was an often used method on spaceplane re-entry, by mounting a probe core in a payload bay rotated to your preferred angle.

You could control from there and have it hold prograde relative to the angled probe, for re-entry. 

 

[Mahnarch]

Just put some tape over the navball.

 

Easy peasy!

[XLjedi]

6 minutes ago, Mahnarch said:

Just put some tape over the navball.

 

Easy peasy!

Hmmm...  that might work!  Maybe a dry-erase marker line where horizon should be?  Genius!

As it is now, I just have to watch my VSI to figure out if I'm flying S&L.  Not that big of a deal I s'pose.

Edited July 19, 2019 by XLjedi

[fourfa]

For this situation I always just have a probe core hidden somewhere in the correct orientation, and make it the root part. Problem solved

[MR L A]

can we see your craft please? I'm at 2000 hours and I've never found myself in this situation - not saying its your fault or anything btw - I'm just very curious to see what, exactly, you're doing  I realise 2000 hours is a lot, but when you look at what is possible in this game and how innovative and nuanced it can actually be... it isn't much time at all  and this is an example of exactly that - experienced player coming across something totally new  I love that about this game... rant over

Edited July 20, 2019 by MR L A

[Loskene]

21 hours ago, XLjedi said:

The problem is, I'm flying straight and level and the gyro navball instrument says I'm in a 20° dive.  That's what I want to fix!

What on Kerbin are you doing that would cause this, lol. The navball is aligned to your control point so is your cockpit/probe core angled 20 degrees down from the rest of the plane in level flight? I mean I've just never seen this particular problem come up before.

[XLjedi]

57 minutes ago, Loskene said:

What on Kerbin are you doing that would cause this, lol. The navball is aligned to your control point so is your cockpit/probe core angled 20 degrees down from the rest of the plane in level flight? I mean I've just never seen this particular problem come up before.

You haven't seen it because you don't build craft with sloping cockpits.  I've seen it on several jets, and now a helo. Here, you can try one...

https://kerbalx.com/XLjedi/AH-11-Dragonfly

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by XLjedi

[Loskene]

53 minutes ago, XLjedi said:

You haven't seen it because you don't build craft with sloping cockpits.  I've seen it on several jets, and now a helo. Here, you can try one...

https://kerbalx.com/XLjedi/AH-11-Dragonfly

 

Oh. How come you're building sloping cockpits without a separate control point aligned with the craft's propulsion axis to begin with? SAS will do funny things in level flight like that.

[XLjedi]

2 hours ago, Loskene said:

Oh. How come you're building sloping cockpits without a separate control point aligned with the craft's propulsion axis to begin with? SAS will do funny things in level flight like that.

Did you fly it?   SAS is just fine... as are my other craft with slanted cockpits.   I don't add another control point, cuz look at the craft.

Edit: actually a QBE core on the cabin would probably be fine.  I think I might like that.  Of course now the negative side is I takeoff too hastily and forget a kerbal!

Edited July 20, 2019 by XLjedi

[Beetlecat]

Loving the iteration of that 'copter, XL. It's really turning into a sports car! I haven't tracked down the mod interaction that's causing the Kal-1000 to lose tracks when switching scenes / launching / loading though. It's always something.  

Embedding the QBE was probably the simplest route to go (and doesn't involve a mod), but Attitude Adjuster actually works like a charm. I edited the mod's config to allow a negative value, and set the default attitude to -10 deg. which "zeroed-out" the downward deflected nose. I switched back "control from here" to the cockpit and the nav ball shows perfectly level, and the flight indicators aren't affected. 

You could then also set the U/D translate to trim the pitch angle for "cruise-level" or something like that.

Again, don't need it with the QBE control point, but I've discovered that AA is a surprisingly flexible mod.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Beetlecat

[XLjedi]

4 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

Loving the iteration of that 'copter, XL. It's really turning into a sports car! I haven't tracked down the mod interaction that's causing the Kal-1000 to lose tracks when switching scenes / launching / loading though. It's always something.  

Embedding the QBE was probably the simplest route to go (and doesn't involve a mod), but Attitude Adjuster actually works like a charm. I edited the mod's config to allow a negative value, and set the default attitude to -10 deg. which "zeroed-out" the downward deflected nose. I switched back "control from here" to the cockpit and the nav ball shows perfectly level, and the flight indicators aren't affected. 

You could then also set the U/D translate to trim the pitch angle for "cruise-level" or something like that.

Again, don't need it with the QBE control point, but I've discovered that AA is a surprisingly flexible mod.

Well that's pretty cool.  I was thinking it just pitches your  nose up/down.  The QBE solution actually did work perfectly.  Since I didn't install any antenna, I don't even have the problem of taking off without a kerbal.

The helo is a lot of fun for me.  I've been landing on all the mountains within 100km and planting "nav beacon" flags on various things.  I put one on top of the pyramid ruins last night.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by XLjedi

[cantab]

Yeah, the simple solution has always been to put a probe core in the correct orientation. (A docking port works too).

Now that we have robotics, a refinement is to put a probe core on a hinge so you can dynamically set the control direction in flight. People have been using this to make rocket autopilots - by rotating the probe core, SAS will tilt the whole rocket in order to keep the probe pointing straight up.

[DStaal]

Just to mention there's a recent mini-mod with a mini probe core designed exactly for this:

 

[XLjedi]

On 7/22/2019 at 10:54 AM, DStaal said:

Just to mention there's a recent mini-mod with a mini probe core designed exactly for this:

 

I don't use mods that would change, modify, or add to the craft file in any way. 

I'm actually very happy with the stock probe core addition.  ...and since there is no communications antenna on my helo, the craft still cannot depart the ground or be deployed without a kerbal assigned to the pilot seat.  So it works exactly the same as it did previously, and the probe core only serves to correct the avionics issue. 

So it works perfectly.