Mining, ISRU and Resources

[Guest]

7 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

They seem to be focusing on how colonies do stuff for you. I'm starting to wonder if you'll plop a colony down and every x hours they make y units of raw material, based on the ores in their location, the size of the colony, perhaps what "parts" the colony has and maybe a tech level unlock or something.

Maybe the colonial VAB requires different resources to be able to produce different types of parts, which means you'd need to build various types of ISRUs to produce those resources.

If done well that could be a significant new gameplay dimension good for a lot of fun engineering challenges.

If done badly it would mean an endless grind of repetitive supply missions hauling the resources.

I do get the impression that the devs are well aware of the potential for grind and have ideas on how to avoid it, but I guess we'll see when we'll see.

[Xd the great]

35 minutes ago, Brikoleur said:

Maybe the colonial VAB requires different resources to be able to produce different types of parts, which means you'd need to build various types of ISRUs to produce those resources.

If done well that could be a significant new gameplay dimension good for a lot of fun engineering challenges.

If done badly it would mean an endless grind of repetitive supply missions hauling the resources.

I do get the impression that the devs are well aware of the potential for grind and have ideas on how to avoid it, but I guess we'll see when we'll see.

Maybe a system where all resources are available, but with various concentrations at various points? I.e. a spot rich in metals will be poor on fuel, and Dres with its share of Nuclear fuel does not have a lot of Snacks. Yet, you can always mine all 5 resources anywhere, they challenge is that some concentrations are low, prompting hardworking people to set up various colonies and transfer resources between, but lazy people can set up 1 and timewrap.

Then you can do whatever you want at a single colony, and not risk catastrophic failure.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Xd the great

[Superfluous J]

34 minutes ago, Brikoleur said:

Maybe the colonial VAB requires different resources to be able to produce different types of parts, which means you'd need to build various types of ISRUs to produce those resources.

If done well that could be a significant new gameplay dimension good for a lot of fun engineering challenges.

If done badly it would mean an endless grind of repetitive supply missions hauling the resources.

I do get the impression that the devs are well aware of the potential for grind and have ideas on how to avoid it, but I guess we'll see when we'll see.

I'm hoping all colonies on a planet share resources, maybe with some lag time or lowered amounts available for use depending on how far apart they are and how much of some currency you devote to some sort of nebulous "shipping infrastructure" value. Then similar can be done for automatic inter-satellite* and then (to a lesser degree) interplanetary resource transfers.

*There does not seem to be a word for "interplanetary transfers but between satellites." This both amazes and bothers me.

[Guest]

Just now, Xd the great said:

Maybe a system where all resources are available, but with various concentrations at varoous points? Then you can do whatever you want at a single colony, and not risk catastrophic failure.

IMO that would largely trivialise the entire system; all you need to do is install the appropriate ISRU modules and wait. If it's like that I don't really see the point of having it at all. It also leaves open the question of orbital colonies -- there aren't any resources up there at all, so how are they going to be supplied? Would you need to either fly supply missions or set up your colony on an asteroid it can mine, or something else?

I've played (and enjoyed) games where resource extraction is a big part of it, Dwarf Fortress for example. It's a tricky gameplay dimension to pull off well: to be meaningful it needs to make you work for it, but at the same time it needs to not be grindy. I think the best way to approach it would be a resource discovery mechanism -- you set up a colony, then you explore to find resource concentrations, then you install mining modules at the concentrations, then you perform a supply run and flag that supply run as a repeated resupply mission, and after that the ore is magically transported to the colony for refinement, with or without simulating the supply run. (Supply runs could have their own resource requirements as well of course, for example they might need to have a kerbal present and assigned to it, either as a pilot or a remote controller.)

The thing that worries me a little is that this would drastically shift KSP's focus away from building and flying spacecraft, especially toward the late game. There are entire games built around just this type of gameplay and given the time and resources available it's going to be a real challenge to pull off well. 

But, as stated, we'll see when we'll see.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

Maybe the colonial VAB requires different resources to be able to produce different types of parts, which means you'd need to build various types of ISRUs to produce those resources.

If done well that could be a significant new gameplay dimension good for a lot of fun engineering challenges.

If done badly it would mean an endless grind of repetitive supply missions hauling the resources.

I do get the impression that the devs are well aware of the potential for grind and have ideas on how to avoid it, but I guess we'll see when we'll see.

One point is that you might need some resource but not much of it. 
Say you need 14 ton of aluminium, 3 ton steel, 4 ton hydrocarbons for plastic. Then you need 200 kg copper and 2 kg silicon.
Might compact the last group into rare metals and exotic minerals, it might be found along other resources or they need their own mining however the quantity used is so low you are unlikely to mine for them twice if you extracted an medium tank. 
 

[kerbiloid]

Can't get and accept those people who can do without resources like Diethanolamine required to separate CarbonDioxide or LqdCO2 from Ammonia in their ISRU plants.
And of course, EthyleneOxide to produce the Diethanolamine.
They loose a whole half of KSP pleasure.

Also, UDMH and NTO ISRU production is a whole amazing adventure...

So, mineable resources should include at least 30 more minerals in brief case.

***

On more serious note.
Idk how it's implemented in KSP-2, but in KSP-1 there are solar panels which are more or less easily implemented as 2 (or 3, to be accurate) objects.
They rotate teh solar panel head following the local sun.

This is absolutely similar to the sunflowers.
So, say we have a greenhouse or (in normal atmosphere) an open plantation of sunflowers.
We can get SunflowerOil, Sunflowereed, GreenMulch.
We can ISRU these resources into Methanol, Methane, Diesel, Compost, and so on.
By adding some fishing resources we can add sources of nitrogen, and so on.

So, there can be a whole branch of Sunflower + Fishing resources with their own ISRU technology scheme.

Edited September 2, 2019 by kerbiloid

[shdwlrd]

After watching the DasValdez interview with Nate Simpson from star theory, I think KSP2 is well covered from a resource standpoint. There looks to be different raw and processed resources. How many different resources was asked and a "no comment" was the reply. But as for the logistics of moving resources around, that wasn't specifically asked. So that part is still up for speculation. The info is at about 15:11 in the video.

 

[Superfluous J]

9 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

How many different resources was asked and a "no comment" was the reply.

"No comment" does not mean "yes."

"No comment" on all the resource questions ONLY means they're not commenting on resources. There could be 3 resources. There could be 30. I suspect it's somewhere in between and closer to 3 but we don't KNOW and won't know until they say something other than "no comment" or release the game.

[shdwlrd]

7 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

"No comment" does not mean "yes."

"No comment" on all the resource questions ONLY means they're not commenting on resources. There could be 3 resources. There could be 30. I suspect it's somewhere in between and closer to 3 but we don't KNOW and won't know until they say something other than "no comment" or release the game.

I'm taking "no comment" as they don't want to talk about it for whatever reasons. Whether is in the design phase or still a WIP or it's finished and don't want to reveal any real info just yet.

It's my speculation that there will be a decent number of raw and manufactured resources based on what has been seen and identified so far. Just to be clear to what drives/fuels that as been ID'ed so far, fusion torch drives (Epstein drive), nuclear pulse detonation drive (Orion drive), metallic hydrogen fuels, magnetic constricted plasma drives (base technologies and types is unknown as of now), external fusion pellet drive. All of these will require different resources to power them.  

Since there won't be one magic ore to create all these different fuels types, there is going to be different base resources to manufacture the different fuel types. So I'm thinking ~12 different resources just for known fuel types. I'm not even including the possibility of having the resources for constructing colonies and craft or life support.

In all reality, I don't care too much about how many different resources there will be in the game and how you get them. What I care about is not having to manually move all the different resources to where they need to be. If I have to plop a colony down to get resources, so be it. If I have to make rovers or crafts to move resources around, so be it. I just don't want to manually move them around unless I want to.

[Lach_01298]

Well looking at all the different currently interview videos I've seen I think the system is going to be extensive. Specific things I've heard:

•  On a scale of 0 to 5. 0 being simplest resource (Ore to anything) to 5 being all out, where is KSP 2's resource system? Answer: closer to 5. Maybe between 3 and 4, but the scale is highly subjective.
• There are cesium doped metallic hydrogen magnetic nozzle engines
• Metallic hydrogen is not mined it is synthesized from other resources
• That resource gathering and colonies making things out of those resources is a big part of colonies (not stated how big)
• The game is still all about creating, flying and crashing things.

This to me sounds amazing! Possible more than I thought. In my opinion the system I came up with is about a 3.

Hope we find out more in the coming months. Because for me keeping the Hype train going is great (possibly not for my uni work).

 

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

In all reality, I don't care too much about how many different resources there will be in the game and how you get them. What I care about is not having to manually move all the different resources to where they need to be.

I care about that, and I also care about not needing 24 tanks per tank size, 12 each for the resource and "ore".

*shudder*.

Edited September 3, 2019 by 5thHorseman

[shdwlrd]

36 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I care about that, and I also care about not needing 24 tanks per tank size, 12 each for the resource and "ore".

*shudder*.

I wouldn't want dozens of different tanks for resources either. (nightmares of early MKS of the past.)

Looking at the released footage so far, most tanks look pretty standard for KSP1 even if they are using the new fuels/drives. (With the exception of the Orion drive, since that is a different beast on it's own.) It doesn't exclude the possibly of new tanks, but I think we may get a gift of stock resource switching to keep the parts catalog in check. It's been said and actually seen parts from KSP1 will also be in KSP2. Star theory will be adding an unknown number of larger parts for building these massive interstellar ships and colonies. Stock resource switching would keep the part count from growing exponentially.

I know this is complete conjecture, but from a practicality standpoint, it make sense. 

[Guest]

Yeah resource switching would be very welcome in KSP1 as well. It's kind of stupidly limiting to have such a small selection of pure Lf tanks when building NERV powered craft...

Edited September 3, 2019 by Guest

[Xd the great]

8 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

I wouldn't want dozens of different tanks for resources either. (nightmares of early MKS of the past.)

Looking at the released footage so far, most tanks look pretty standard for KSP1 even if they are using the new fuels/drives. (With the exception of the Orion drive, since that is a different beast on it's own.) It doesn't exclude the possibly of new tanks, but I think we may get a gift of stock resource switching to keep the parts catalog in check. It's been said and actually seen parts from KSP1 will also be in KSP2. Star theory will be adding an unknown number of larger parts for building these massive interstellar ships and colonies. Stock resource switching would keep the part count from growing exponentially.

I know this is complete conjecture, but from a practicality standpoint, it make sense. 

I agree. Sounds extremely good for reducing time search for proper tanks.

[Dr. Jet]

On 8/31/2019 at 11:22 AM, Xd the great said:

This looks very complicated for new players, or even for veteran players. Perhaps some should only be used for late game.

New players should not bother with ISRU in first place. Building self-sustaining colonies is a late game thing anyway.

[Xd the great]

2 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

New players should not bother with ISRU in first place. Building self-sustaining colonies is a late game thing anyway.

Yep, but I think they should add some type of tutorial.

[Guest]

If someone is planning to build an interstellar ship in Jool's orbit I think he's up to the task of having more than one type or resource to manage, the only problem I can possibly foresee it's the "milk run" problem but with the focus they're putting on colonies, extra fuels and extraplanetary launchpads I'm pretty confident that they already thought a solution to that.

 

[Terwin]

On 9/2/2019 at 2:07 AM, kerbiloid said:

Aether and Phlogiston.

Aether everywhere. To use chutes and electric propellers in space, and to drag and heat ships when they get too fast.

Phlogiston mined in hot places and stored in barrels. Say, to heat the interplanetary aether in vacuum jet engines.

Don't be silly, Phlogiston is between the crystal spheres, not near stars.  Just be careful about letting it mix with oxidizer and any sort of heat/spark as it is pretty explosive.

(on the plus side, a high-bypass jet engine piped for oxidizer instead of fuel would have great ISP for interstellar(inter-crystal) voyages, you just need some way to get to the edge of your crystal sphere and open a portal in it(unless you have some way to divine when and where a natural opening will occur))

[kerbiloid]

(A disclaimer, just in case. People not familiar with the mentioned substances should not take it seriously irl. Don't try to repeat this at home. They are not for home use.)

18 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Phlogiston is between the crystal spheres,

Nope. It's contained in warmed bodies (and chemical compunds). Though, a spherical phlogistank made of crystal is a good idea.

***

Another good theory of that golden age of true science is what's the famous Rumford's Soup based on.
According to it, all plants (and animals eating them) are fed by water, other substances just regulate this.
So, it perfectly explains how Kerbals get food without food factories, and allows to feed them with just a water tank.

Also, RumfordSoup is the best resource for any Life Support system.

Edited September 16, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Drakenred65]

On 9/15/2019 at 5:37 AM, Master39 said:

If someone is planning to build an interstellar ship in Jool's orbit I think he's up to the task of having more than one type or resource to manage, the only problem I can possibly foresee it's the "milk run" problem but with the focus they're putting on colonies, extra fuels and extraplanetary launchpads I'm pretty confident that they already thought a solution to that.

 

Well worst case there watching Rover dudes twitch channel and cribing notes from Wolf.

best case, he’s cribing Wolf from Ksp2

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Well worst case there watching Rover dudes twitch channel and cribing notes from Wolf.

best case, he’s cribing Wolf from Ksp2

Worst case scenario the functionality of MKS can be recreated with no parts, a bunch of MM configs a and a simple plugin because all the parts are already there.