[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[DaMichel]

Then how is the wing mass computed? On a side note, even one piece is much heavier than the part description says. Not good!

The wing mass grows faster than linear with the span if i make a straight wing out of several rectangular pieces, but slower than quadratic. For instance. Start with 4.5t barrel tank. Then add wing pieces on each side symmetrically. The vehicle mass goes 5.6, 7.8, 11.1. So the last piece added over 3t, that is 1.5t per piece. It is hard to imagine that these wing assemblies would weight more than the tank full of kerosine IRL. Can this be?

Edit: With the dev version before 0.25 came i get: 4.5 (0 wings), 5.3, 6.1, 6.9

Edit2: Have there been other changes? Could it be that i need less wing area than before?

Edited October 10, 2014 by DaMichel

[Jovus]

This is happening to me too, if you find the culprit please let me know. I have to get well under 200 m/s to deploy without it ripping off.

This is caused by a mistake in Deadly Reentry v6.0. Update to 6.1 and it goes away.

[Gaugeforever]

This is caused by a mistake in Deadly Reentry v6.0. Update to 6.1 and it goes away.

Thanks mate!

[StainX]

Ok got that disamble on launch fixed... re-downloaded FAR... new savegame -> pod+srb-> launch now -> working!

Maybe just a stupid download error or something, sorry about my stupidity :'(

[Snaps2012]

Ever since I got the new FAR version for KSP .25 my wings don't produce any lift. When I turn on the the center of lift indicator in the SPH it shows the blue ball in the spot where it should be but no arrow. When I try to fly my VTOL it just falls out of the sky when I rotate my engines forward despite the fact that I am already moving forward at 50-100 m/s. This happens with both stock and B9 wings. Does anyone know how to fix this?

[Jovus]

Try a reinstall. I had the same problem with FAR in 0.24.2 and it turned out I had a bugged install due to an extraction glitch on my end.

[madadam]

When I turn on the the center of lift indicator in the SPH it shows the blue ball in the spot where it should be but no arrow

I believe this is a feature of the latest FAR version. Look in the changelog:

Removed vector from CoL indicator to reduce confusion

No idea about the no lift thing though.

[Maschinenbauer]

Ever since I got the new FAR version for KSP .25 my wings don't produce any lift. When I turn on the the center of lift indicator in the SPH it shows the blue ball in the spot where it should be but no arrow. When I try to fly my VTOL it just falls out of the sky when I rotate my engines forward despite the fact that I am already moving forward at 50-100 m/s. This happens with both stock and B9 wings. Does anyone know how to fix this?

Same here, and control surfaces don´t move. Winglets, too.

Suggestions?

Thx in advance guys!

[Senshi]

I would very much appreciate if there'd be a way to run FAR with KSP64. I've played 64bit in 24.2 and experienced the same amount of crashed as with 32bit (very little). I hope once the crazy release period settles, you'll reallow FAR in 64bit. I'm not really eager having to figure out how to compile the plugin myself, as the comp checker would be easy enough to disable in the souce code...

Aside that, I can only thank you once more on offering one of the few mods without which I no longer can play KSP. I tried with 0.25 64bit (which didn't crash once in the 2-3h of messing around), but I went back to KSP 0.242 until you allow 64bit-usage again .

[ss8913]

@wingnutspeed - I noticed that as well. However I can only get B9 + FAR to even load, on 64-bit, which causes FAR to disable itself. (64-bit windows, that is) - that might also be your issue(?) On 32-bit windows, I can't fit B9 into memory.

[wingnutspeed]

@wingnutspeed - I noticed that as well. However I can only get B9 + FAR to even load, on 64-bit, which causes FAR to disable itself. (64-bit windows, that is) - that might also be your issue(?) On 32-bit windows, I can't fit B9 into memory.

i managed to get it working latest b9 with feram 14.1.1a works fine on .25 version of game and 64bit windows game is warning me that feram is not compatable but everything works fine

[ss8913]

you're not using FAR then. FAR disables itself on 0.25 + Windows 64-bit. The plugin loads, but it does not do anything.

[Snaps2012]

So after reading some of other comments I realized that my problem was due to the fact that I was running the 64 bit version of KSP. Unfortunately the 32 bit version crashes every time I try to launch the game with mods installed but that's an issue for another thread.

[ferram4]

@DaMichel: Wing mass is computed using the "supported area" of the joint, which is calculated from that wing's area and the area of all wing parts that are children of it. This supported area is then multiplied by a constant (in FARAeroData.cfg) to calculate the wing mass. I picked a number that I calculated for the wing mass per unit area of a MD-83 for that, but perhaps it should be lower.

@Senshi: Not until the win64 build isn't a crash-prone nightmare that should never have seen the light of day. It shouldn't have even been released for 0.24, it was so unstable. Maybe once it's not a complete disaster, but that's not happening for a long, long time.

[undercoveryankee]

i managed to get it working latest b9 with feram 14.1.1a works fine on .25 version of game and 64bit windows game is warning me that feram is not compatable but everything works fine

you're not using FAR then. FAR disables itself on 0.25 + Windows 64-bit. The plugin loads, but it does not do anything.

To clarify: FAR 0.14.2 disables itself on 64-bit. FAR 0.14.1.1 does what @wingnutspeed says: attempts to run on 64-bit, warns about not being tested on 0.25, but tries to run anyway. Even if the results appear promising at the moment, running long-term under a compatibility warning means accepting the risk that a mod will eat your save at the worst possible time.

[Moistmonkey]

Thanks for the reply thought i could add some input great work btw, love spending all night designing one plane

[NathanKell]

Even if the results appear promising at the moment, running long-term under a compatibility warning means accepting the risk that a mod will eat your save at the worst possible time.

And, of course, gives up on any chance of support.

[blowfish]

So after reading some of other comments I realized that my problem was due to the fact that I was running the 64 bit version of KSP. Unfortunately the 32 bit version crashes every time I try to launch the game with mods installed but that's an issue for another thread.

Do you have ATM installed? Running out of memory is often the cause of 32 bit crashes.

[JackCY]

Landing with FAR is quite a challenge. That is with keyboard and no aids.

I really miss some aids to use with FAR.

The included, yaw, pitch, or angle of attack don't work well at all. AOA doesn't prevent stall which I hoped it could do. The dynamic sensitivity acts really weird, sometimes the plane can steer sharp but the control doesn't allow it, and vice versa sometimes it cannot and it allows it full power to the steering ==> quick stall.

Mechjeb, I have to install the FAR thingy for the dev version, the stock version is useless the SmartASS causes steering to oscillate out of control.

Stock SAS handles FAR no problem. But I really miss a control that would help me prevent stalling, some stalling is fine and it's easy but sometimes it just snaps and goes to endless spin.

Is there some interface or API or something in FAR so I could filter the steering input using a custom plugin if there is none present? It could tell me how bad the stalling is etc. so I would know when to limit the steering input.

So far, it seems like the only thing working in MechJeb is rocket flying, landing and maneuver nodes. Planes, no chance even with stock KSP let alone with FAR.

A thing I would like to see combined:

In editor when using FAR C&AS, when doing a sweep I have to update the CoL manually before hand, can you combine it that when one clicks sweep it updates what ever is necessary so it has the latest vessel info? Since Updating CoL has no visible output for user but when it's not updated before sweep the sweep is rendered for an older version of the vessel and not the actual one. Hence I have to click all the time two buttons and not just one.

Also when doing the different sweeps could it remember two different values? One for AoA and one for Mach sweep? When I change from AoA and do Mach I have to once again rewrite the values for the graph and every time I switch between the two sweep types. Gets painful when building craft.

Is there some database of example aircraft, well done & balanced, for FAR?

I'm only testing and learning now with FAR in 0.25 with stock plane parts. Waiting for B9 when it gets updated for 0.25.

Made a MK2 cargo plane and 20 Kerbals passenger plane. Takes off by itself from a flat surface, goes up to 5 mach but it loses lift above 4 mach, it's difficult to keep it flying high and fast. Could be the drag of engines mounted under wings making it pitch down at high speed :/ Has a safety realchute to recover from deadly stalls. Seriously miss better landing gear in KSP and wings with fuel. Nice that they have update wings to space plane parts but still no fuel in wings.

[wingnutspeed]

To clarify: FAR 0.14.2 disables itself on 64-bit. FAR 0.14.1.1 does what @wingnutspeed says: attempts to run on 64-bit, warns about not being tested on 0.25, but tries to run anyway. Even if the results appear promising at the moment, running long-term under a compatibility warning means accepting the risk that a mod will eat your save at the worst possible time.

since i dont want my 300+ hour save geting corupted i just stay on .24.2 for now and wait that everything works fine and is compatible

[Ralathon]

since i dont want my 300+ hour save geting corupted i just stay on .24.2 for now and wait that everything works fine and is compatible

Be prepared to wait for a long time then. x64 is unstable because of underlying Unity issues and sloppy programming from squad. You'll probably have to wait for Unity 5 to be released before you see a stable x64 KSP.

Edited October 10, 2014 by NathanKell
(profainty redacted)

[ferram4]

Landing with FAR is quite a challenge. That is with keyboard and no aids.

I know. Do it all the time.

I really miss some aids to use with FAR.

The included, yaw, pitch, or angle of attack don't work well at all.

Try setting the gains. It doesn't automatically do it for you, because tuning those values automatically will always go badly.

AOA doesn't prevent stall which I hoped it could do.

Try setting the AoA limit lower?

The dynamic sensitivity acts really weird, sometimes the plane can steer sharp but the control doesn't allow it, and vice versa sometimes it cannot and it allows it full power to the steering ==> quick stall.

It's to prevent you from overcontrolling the plane during high-dynamic pressure maneuvers. Maybe you should mess with the options.

Mechjeb, I have to install the FAR thingy for the dev version, the stock version is useless the SmartASS causes steering to oscillate out of control.

Well, yes. Did you not think that a control system needs an interface of some kind?

Stock SAS handles FAR no problem. But I really miss a control that would help me prevent stalling, some stalling is fine and it's easy but sometimes it just snaps and goes to endless spin.

...Apparently not. I'm quite amazed, most people complain about how badly SAS handles FAR, and even I think it's terrible at it. SAS has never been good with anything that has a lot of control authority.

Is there some interface or API or something in FAR so I could filter the steering input using a custom plugin if there is none present? It could tell me how bad the stalling is etc. so I would know when to limit the steering input.

Why yes, there is.

So far, it seems like the only thing working in MechJeb is rocket flying, landing and maneuver nodes. Planes, no chance even with stock KSP let alone with FAR.

Dunno what I can do. I code the forces, not autopilots.

A thing I would like to see combined:

In editor when using FAR C&AS, when doing a sweep I have to update the CoL manually before hand, can you combine it that when one clicks sweep it updates what ever is necessary so it has the latest vessel info? Since Updating CoL has no visible output for user but when it's not updated before sweep the sweep is rendered for an older version of the vessel and not the actual one. Hence I have to click all the time two buttons and not just one.

You only have to click one button. You don't need to update the CoL before the sweep; the button is there for if any errors occur for the indicator alone. I'll make sure to remove it to reduce confusion.

Also when doing the different sweeps could it remember two different values? One for AoA and one for Mach sweep? When I change from AoA and do Mach I have to once again rewrite the values for the graph and every time I switch between the two sweep types. Gets painful when building craft.

It actually remembers three different values, but I'm not sure what you want: another entire window for the settings for each sweep type?

Is there some database of example aircraft, well done & balanced, for FAR?

There was. Then Squad updated the plane parts and they were all broken.

[Wanderfound]

Having a play with the dev version.

The tweakable wing mass thing is brilliant: it adds a whole new level of depth to design. Strong trainers and aerobatics planes, ultralight fragile speedsters, middleweight cargo workhorses, etc. Either this was your secret plan all along, or you've just stumbled onto a very positive feature.

The only niggle is that the scale is set way too far to the right. I'm using wing strengths of 0.25 or so, so I'm trying to pick values from a tiny portion of the left of the bar. 0.25 is still too heavy, but 0.05 is a bit too weak. No options between those two. A numeric input and saveable default would be nice.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Wanderfound

[Voculus]

I've read through all of the last few pages, and there's something seriously wonky going on. I've got planes that used to fly like arrows, which are now uncontrollable. With SAS on or off, and using a full-on HOTAS + rudder pedal setup, I simply cannot get many of my old designs to fly reliably. I should be able to let go of the stick, and the plane should be flying mostly straight. Right? These things are oscillating up and down with no way to arrest it, snap rolling at mach 1.6, and wholly incapable of getting into space.

If nothing drastic has been done to the mod, is it possible that Squad has pulled some shenanigans to affect the mod in unforseen ways?

Edited to add: this is not intended as a whine fest or accusation of any kind! I'm just trying figure out what I'm missing here.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Voculus

[Wanderfound]

I've read through all of the last few pages, and there's something seriously wonky going on. I've got planes that used to fly like arrows, which are now uncontrollable. With SAS on or off, and using a full-on HOTAS + rudder pedal setup, I simply cannot get many of my old designs to fly reliably. I should be able to let go of the stick, and the plane should be flying mostly straight. Right? These things are oscillating up and down with no way to arrest it, snap rolling at mach 1.6, and wholly incapable of getting into space.

If nothing drastic has been done to the mod, is it possible that Squad has pulled some shenanigans to affect the mod in unforseen ways?

Edited to add: this is not intended as a whine fest or accusation of any kind! I'm just trying figure out what I'm missing here.

Wing strength and weight were both massively increased. Your planes are now all hugely overloaded. It appears that a fix is being sorted in the dev build.