[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[xxjetterxx]

Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to read the graphs included in the editors? I'd like to use them but can't wrap my head around them.

[Crzyrndm]

Try wanderfounds guide to spaceplanes

[fatcargo]

@Kolago : I'm not sure how helpful this is, but i've stumbled on forum on something along these lines : try to recreate a bug and directly quit KSP by closing window. Then look at end of log for anything suspicious. Good luck.

[xxjetterxx]

Try wanderfounds guide to spaceplanes

Perfect. Thank you.

[ferram4]

@Kolago: There is no way for there to be a MM collision with code, that's not the way MM works at all. Provide full reproduction steps and a copy of your log, all using minimal mods. I have not been able to reproduce this issue on my build.

[Wanderfound]

Always an option but one I'd rather not resort to, Vernors utterly kill fuel reserves, even with just a few. For such a tiny engine their ISP is terrible.

Not really a problem if you keep them off unless required; it only takes a few seconds of vectored thrust to correct a spin.

[Kolago]

@Kolago: There is no way for there to be a MM collision with code, that's not the way MM works at all. Provide full reproduction steps and a copy of your log, all using minimal mods. I have not been able to reproduce this issue on my build.

MM can't interact with code directly. My thought was that the aerodynamic parameters that end up in the parts config after MM is done generating the error in Kerbal/FAR. I will try to do recreate the error with minimal mods installed.

[kcs123]

Is there a tutorial somewhere on how to read the graphs included in the editors? I'd like to use them but can't wrap my head around them.

As addition on wanderfounds guide, you can also check links in my signature.

[Kolago]

MM can't interact with code directly. My thought was that the aerodynamic parameters that end up in the parts config after MM is done generating the error in Kerbal/FAR. I will try to do recreate the error with minimal mods installed.

So, here are my results:

Stock Game Win x86 0.90 with:

Ferram_Aerospace_Research-v0.14.5.1

Mark_IV_Spaceplane_System-1.1.2

TweakScale_-_Rescale_Everything-v1.49_2014-12-18_1103_UTC

ModuleManager.2.5.6.dll

DDSLoader-1.8.0.0

output_log.zip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ou8kks1jp9vtdz4/output_log.zip?dl=0

VAB Ship: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z152lut84tesgqj/Untitled%20Space%20Craft.zip?dl=0

Start Ship. Revert to launch. Ship Broken.

Error is only there with TweakScale installed!

Edited December 23, 2014 by Kolago

[Black-Talon]

Hey Ferram, can you tell me more about how to configure a FARBasicDragModel Module? The readme shows this:

Other Drag (not normally needed; only for very strange objects)---------------------------
```
MODULE  
{  
    name = FARBasicDragModel  
    S = 1                //Surface Area  
    CdCurve                //Drag coefficient at various angles  
    {  
        key = -1 0        //backwards  
        key = 0 0.3        //sideways  
        key = 1.0 0        //forwards  
    }  
    ClPotentialCurve  
    {  
        key = -1 0        //Lift coefficient, decreases with Mach number  
        key = -0.5 -0.03  
        key = 0 0  
        key = 0.5 0.03  
        key = 1 0  
    }  
    ClViscuousCurve  
    {  
        key = -1 0        //Lift coefficient, remains nearly constant with Mach number  
        key = -0.5 -0.2  
        key = 0 0  
        key = 0.5 0.2  
        key = 1 0  
    }  
    CmCurve                //Moment coefficient  
    {  
        key = -1 0  
        key = -0.5 -0.01    //keeping angle and moment signs the same results in pitch instability; it will try to flip over  
        key = 0 0        //making them opposite signs results in pitch stability; it will try to angle fully forward  
        key = 0.5 0.01  
        key = 1 0  
    }  
    localUpVector = 0,1,0        //a unit vector defining "up" for this part; 0,1,0 is standard for most stock-compliant parts  
    localForwardVector = 1,0,0    //a unti vector defining "forward" for this part; 1,0,0 is standard for most stock-compliant parts  
    majorMinorAxisRatio = 1        //the ratio of the part's "forward" length to its "side" length, used for drag and lift calculations  
    cosCutoffAngle = 0        //cosine of the angle used to determine which side of the part is tapering for hypersonic drag calculations.  Use sign to specify which side  
    taperCrossSectionAreaRatio = 0;    //the part's tapered area projected on a plane normal to the "up" vector, divided by surface area; used to handle changes in drag at hypersonic speeds  
    CenterOfDrag = 0,0,0        //a vector defining the part's CoD  
}  
```


For both of these, set MaxDrag and MinDrag to 0

Specifically I'm trying to add drag to this part of Sounding Rockets which is a Nose Cone, Command Module, AND a Parachute. The result of which is that this often flown solo part has no drag applied to it causing it to accelerate under gravity to speeds no one wants to open a parachute at!

I copied this block from FerramAerospaceResearch.cfg and applied it to the PART[sR_NoseCone] via config and it's working I think...but what would be the RIGHT way to apply drag with the right values? I suppose this will muck up the drag when the parachute is deployed?

@PART[SR_NoseCone]:BEFORE[FerramAerospaceResearch]:NEEDS[FerramAerospaceResearch|NEAR]{
    MODULE
    {
        name = FARBasicDragModel
        S = 0.254
        CdCurve                //Drag coefficient at various angles
        {
            key = -1 0        //backwards
            key = 1.0 0        //forwards
        }
        ClCurve
        {
            key = -1 0        //Lift coefficient
            key = 1 0
        }
        CmCurve                //Moment coefficient
        {
            key = -1 0
            key = 1 0
        }
    }
}

[Black-Talon]

So, here are my results:

Stock Game Win x86 0.90 with:

Ferram_Aerospace_Research-v0.14.5.1

Mark_IV_Spaceplane_System-1.1.2

TweakScale_-_Rescale_Everything-v1.49_2014-12-18_1103_UTC

ModuleManager.2.5.6.dll

DDSLoader-1.8.0.0

output_log.zip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ou8kks1jp9vtdz4/output_log.zip?dl=0

VAB Ship: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z152lut84tesgqj/Untitled%20Space%20Craft.zip?dl=0

Start Ship. Revert to launch. Ship Broken.

Error is only there with TweakScale installed!

- I think I was experiencing something similar last night Kolago and I didn't get a chance to find out if it was more than a fluke. Happened right after I updated to ModuleManager.2.5.6 as well so that's my suspicion. I was going to try a clean slate and see if it's reproducible and fixable by reverting to ModuleManager 2.5.4 or not.

[Hodo]

I have been having Nullrefs pop up at an alarming rate, not sure what it is now....

Output.log

[Black-Talon]

- I think I was experiencing something similar last night Kolago and I didn't get a chance to find out if it was more than a fluke. Happened right after I updated to ModuleManager.2.5.6 as well so that's my suspicion. I was going to try a clean slate and see if it's reproducible and fixable by reverting to ModuleManager 2.5.4 or not.

After some controlled testing I have not been able to reproduced - at least in the case of my issue I'm considering it a fluke. And if it happens again I'll have a new angle to test and report in then.

[Kitspace]

Is the lift of the stock wings system in the new version actually considered correct?

[KerbMav]

Is the lift of the stock wings system in the new version actually considered correct?

I always assumed FAR throws that out of the window and calculates lift from the actual form of the craft.

[Streetwind]

So, a bout of idle curiosity just gripped me.

In stock KSP, when you add more intakes to your craft, you can fly higher without the jets flaming out, and you can push this to ridiculous extremes. But I distinctly remember reading in multiple places that "you can't airhog under FAR". Now I want to know: How do intakes work under FAR, and how do I intelligently choose intake types/size for my plane?

If one of the regulars could humor me with a brief compairson, it would be greatly appreciated

[taniwha]

I believe the intakes are pretty much the same, it's the engines that differ: FAR severely chops the engine power down to something much more reasonable (and the curves, too?) such that you just simply cannot go fast enough for air-hogging to matter.

If you want true elimination of air-hogging, look into AJE (advanced jet engines?), and if anybody uses that without FAR... masochist, I tell ya, masochist!!!

[Hodo]

I believe the intakes are pretty much the same, it's the engines that differ: FAR severely chops the engine power down to something much more reasonable (and the curves, too?) such that you just simply cannot go fast enough for air-hogging to matter.

If you want true elimination of air-hogging, look into AJE (advanced jet engines?), and if anybody uses that without FAR... masochist, I tell ya, masochist!!!

I love AJE, it made life so much harder with jets and so much more realistic. But in the stock sized Kerbin it didn't make much sense. So I only run them in my RO install.. which I should get around to reinstalling sooner or later.

But first I need to track down what is throwing those Nullref errors in my game.

[kcs123]

I'm not absolute sure, but it seems that new struts make a mess with FAR. I have tried to make wider wing with several SP+ swept wings. First I attached SP+ structural wing type A on craft hull.

And to that wing I have attached two SP+ type B wings next to each other. Now I need to attach some struts between those two B type wings, becouse each of them is attached only to first structural wing type A.

Problem is that when I put one part of strut on one wing, I cant make connection by placing other end of strut to second swept wing. I'm not sure if that is related to FAR or not, still need to make few more test re-install of mods to be sure that is not stock bug and have anything at all with FAR.

I reporting this for others to pay attention, until I will be able to provide more info about it.

[tetryds]

I'm not absolute sure, but it seems that new struts make a mess with FAR. I have tried to make wider wing with several SP+ swept wings. First I attached SP+ structural wing type A on craft hull.

And to that wing I have attached two SP+ type B wings next to each other. Now I need to attach some struts between those two B type wings, becouse each of them is attached only to first structural wing type A.

Problem is that when I put one part of strut on one wing, I cant make connection by placing other end of strut to second swept wing. I'm not sure if that is related to FAR or not, still need to make few more test re-install of mods to be sure that is not stock bug and have anything at all with FAR.

I reporting this for others to pay attention, until I will be able to provide more info about it.

FAR doesn't really touch the editing methods (just adds one harmless GUI), so I can say it's not FAR at all.

@KerbMav: Not yet, but ferram4 is working on a project to do that, called PanelFAR.

[ferram4]

@Kolago: It looks like Tweakscale is trying to call something before it's loaded. Just don't use Tweakscale with FAR for now.

@Black-Talon: Load it up in-game without the parachute module on, then dump the drag configs. That's why I added that feature. In any case, why is it being detached from the lower booster anyway?

@Hodo: Me neither, it gives me a 403. Providing reports of NREs without reproduction steps or even any explanation of the problem leaves we with nothing to go on.

@Kitspace: ... no. Why would you think that?

@Streetwind: You'll find that the extra drag from the intakes makes moving in the lower atmosphere a lot more difficult, and severely interferes with climbing. You can airhog with FAR, it's just nowhere near as viable.

[Hodo]

@Hodo: Me neither, it gives me a 403. Providing reports of NREs without reproduction steps or even any explanation of the problem leaves we with nothing to go on.

I have leveled it down, I think it is something with the updated Procedural Wings 9.2 and FAR. It is giving the same Nullref errors as the NEAR Pwing errors.

[kcs123]

I got again that strange bug in editor, this time not with struts, but with whole wing. Happened in SPH editor when I was try to reposition whole wing to adjust CoL.

Once I deatached wing, I was unable to attach again on hull. I was not able to find complete output log, but I have cached something from debug console (ALT+F2 and/or ALT+F12)

[noparse]
 [MechJeb2] Exception in MechJebModuleStageStats.StartSimulation():   at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[Part,MuMech.FuelNode].Add (.Part key, MuMech.FuelNode value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Linq.Enumerable.ToDictionary[Part,Part,FuelNode] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 keySelector, System.Func`2 elementSelector, IEqualityComparer`1 comparer) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Linq.Enumerable.ToDictionary[Part,Part,FuelNode] (IEnumerable`1 source, System.Func`2 keySelector, System.Func`2 elementSelector) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at MuMech.FuelFlowSimulation..ctor (System.Collections.Generic.List`1 parts, Boolean dVLinearThrust) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at MuMech.MechJebModuleStageStats.StartSimulation () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
[/noparse]

and also lot of red lines with:

[noparse]

[Exception]: NullReferenceException

[/noparse]

It seems that has nothing with FAR, it is not realy good place to write this, but since I mentioned already in this thread and other people also reported "NullReferenceException", I thought it will be fair to write feedback about it.

EDIT:

I didn't use PWing(not even installed, but I plan to), it was all stock parts.

[blowfish]

It seems that has nothing with FAR, it is not realy good place to write this, but since I mentioned already in this thread and other people also reported "NullReferenceException", I thought it will be fair to write feedback about it.

It appears to be MechJeb related, so the MechJeb thread would probably be a better place for this. It's not like ferram can fix bugs related to other mods.

[kcs123]

Agises posted link for fix with PWing-FAR issue in PWing thread

I don't expect for ferram to fix things that is not related with his mod, but I'm trying to give proper feedback as much as possible, since I started subject about it.

It could also warn other people that they don't blame FAR mod until they also check MechJeb or other mods to narrow down bug.