[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[DaMichel]

@Ferram4: All right. Perhaps i will give it a try if i can even figure out where to start.

But, why are you so much insisting on getting clipping right? It has been abused before it was made official, and the abuses allow much more room for clipping than the official movement gizmo. IMO you could totally leave it the way it was before 0.90, and state that it is a limitation of FAR for the sake of your own sanity

this is a brilliant application of the free rotating dock-washing disc. I'm using the KerbalWind as well, but mainly for cross-wind take-off/landing challenges.

So you found that the aircraft needs to generate more pitch-up torque by these reaction wheels at alpha 45 than at 90 alpha to hold its attitude, right?

Thanks And yes. But Ferram4 raised a good point. The CoM is probably not the right place where to measure the torque. Still the CoL is nearby and the axis has to go through the CoM in order to get rid of the effect of gravity.

[mecki]

@mecki: That is entirely DRE, and those fields should be there. They should be there for each and every part on your vehicle.

I know that they should be there but after loading a saved ship I have two of them there.

As in:

Temperature: XX
Ambient: XX
Temperature: XX
Ambient: XX

I'll go and keep bugging in the Deadly Reentry thread then.

[Matrix Aran]

Question for the experts: In FAR, does adding a nosecone, to the tail end of say a drop tank, improve the aerodynamic properties of the tank, i.e. reduce drag?

[Genius Evil]

I used a manually-defined drag model because I was imitating the configs for propellers in AJE; this engine is part of a pack of models to replace the Firespitter engines used by AJE. I also used a manually defined model because many of the engines have complex meshes. The only thing that differentiates this engine from any other engine is that it is constructed with several MODEL{} nodes.

Anyway, I found the source of the issue -- the model used for the propeller's spinner. FAR doesn't seem to like that it spirals (to allow it to look like this without a high-res texture). I will create a more conventional mesh to replace it.

Replacing it with a simple cone has no effect. Removing it entirely does lower the Cd to a much more reasonable value, however.

I'm certain the issue is something I'm doing wrong; but I can't find it. Min, max, and angular drag is set to 0. The FARBasicDragModel is copied from one in FerramAerospaceResearch.cfg. I've reinstalled from scratch. But I still can't get a manually defined drag model to work. I can post the model and cfg I'm having trouble with, if that would make things easier.

Ferram, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and help me out with this.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Genius Evil

[tetryds]

Question for the experts: In FAR, does adding a nosecone, to the tail end of say a drop tank, improve the aerodynamic properties of the tank, i.e. reduce drag?

Instead if answering I suggest that you try it yourself using the graphs

[Matrix Aran]

I've been trying, but if there is a change, I can't seem to spot it. But I'm not sure if I'm even doing it right, so hence why I ask.

[blowfish]

It will make a difference. There's a reason that planes have tapered tails and don't just end in a blunt surface.

[Superfluous J]

I've been trying, but if there is a change, I can't seem to spot it. But I'm not sure if I'm even doing it right, so hence why I ask.

Try this:

1. Load up the graph you use to check stability. I don't remember the name but the one where you sweep AoA and Mach.
   
2. Put in reasonable numbers and create the graph.
   
3. Hit F1 to take a screenshot.
   
4. Add the upside down nosecone (or remove it)
   
5. Create a new graph with the same numbers.
   
6. Hit F1 to take a screenshot.
   
7. Load up boht screenshots in an image viewer and switch back and forth between them to see if the graph changes.
   
8. Use more smarts than I have to determine which graph is "better"
   

[Van Disaster]

Ignoring aerodynamics, adding a nosecone to the end of a tank will cover up the exposed node on the end of the tank which also matters.

[Crzyrndm]

Ignoring aerodynamics, adding a nosecone to the end of a tank will cover up the exposed node on the end of the tank which also matters.

To be fair, that's because FAR assumes open nodes are abrupt changes in cross section which do cause a comparative ton of drag.

It would be easier to see the effect with the Cd highlighting inflight IMO. The open fuel tank should turn solid yellow/orange quite fast, while the covered endpiece will just show a little colouration (probably mostly on the nosecone. Change in cross-section is still a change in cross-section)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Crzyrndm

[kcs123]

Meanwhile, I finished that medium sized SSTO with latest B9 procedural wings. Performed realy well. Link for thread with craft file is in signature.

Takoff speed with 31t of payload is between 90 and 100 m/s, flaps set to 2 and without pilot input at all.

Link for galery if it not shows properly

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[Dermeister]

Does any 1 know of a Youtube tutorial for the interface in Farram aerospace research? you know the Graf in the VAB and SPH. I'm sorry if this had been asked before but as I said I ran a search and nothing comes up

[BudgetHedgehog]

Does any 1 know of a Youtube tutorial for the interface in Farram aerospace research?

Not sure how hard you searched, but this video is linked in the FAR OP.

[Dermeister]

Thanks I searched on you tube and google but I kept getting tutorials how to do COM And COL and how to build rockets in FAR but nothing on the actual Interface for the grafs ect in the VAB. Even this scott manley tutorial dosent really explain all the tabs in the FAR Interface for stability ect.Although it does explain it a lot better than the other videos I found!

Edited January 30, 2015 by Dermeister

[kcs123]

I can't make videos, but I made small tutorial trough pictures

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Still working on thread and craft examples. Check links in my signature to find essentials about FAR graphs.

[tetryds]

Thanks I searched on you tube and google but I kept getting tutorials how to do COM And COL and how to build rockets in FAR but nothing on the actual Interface for the grafs ect in the VAB. Even this scott manley tutorial dosent really explain all the tabs in the FAR Interface for stability ect.Although it does explain it a lot better than the other videos I found!

I will do that, no worries, but it will take a bit of time.

@ksc123: nice one!

[Dermeister]

NICe guys I'm looking forward in a video but the picture tutorial was also helpful! I think Since a lot of people use FAR now a good in dept tutorial will be appreciated by people like me who understand the basics but are now starting to create more advanced crafts. Rockets are easy but it get's more complicated when u have to create a space shuttle like craft who has to be stable on launch and be able to land like a glider. So using all the far tools in the VAB and SPH is very helpful if you can understand it in depth and use all your tools to help you balance your craft!

[UnanimousCoward]

Hey Ferram,

The latest version of a mod I used changed the models for the 1-man and 3-man crew capsules. Now, when they enter atmosphere, the top of the capsule forces itself prograde and refuses to budge. If you try to position it back the correct way (heatshield pointed forward), the craft vibrates itself to an explosion and all parts other than the capsule itself are stripped away and the camera goes into this fast unrecoverable spin. When I remove the FAR folder, this bizarre glitch doesn't happen anymore.

I'm not asking you to bugfix another person's mod, but have you encountered anything like this behavior before?

I'm having this same issue with Ven's Stock Part Revamp 1.7.1 - upon reentering the atmosphere the command pod flips to prograde and won't budge. If you try, things destroy themselves and the camera goes mental. This is reproducible on a stock install with just Ven's and FAR.

Also, like Captain Planet, I'm not asking you to fix the problem, just wondering if you might have any idea what's causing it. For now, I'm going to ditch Ven's, as FAR is such an essential part of this game for me. It's one of those amazing mods I wouldn't play without.

KSP 0.90 Windows 32-bit, Ven's Stock Parts Revamp 1.7.1, Ferram Aerospace Research 0.14.6. Logs are available at the following link - but I couldn't find any hints there (although I have to admit I don't really know what i'm looking for):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/53e7z6wc3gy9i3a/AACaNFdK2rWsHgXKslobiNcZa?dl=0

[Bakase]

I'm having this same issue with Ven's Stock Part Revamp 1.7.1 - upon reentering the atmosphere the command pod flips to prograde and won't budge. If you try, things destroy themselves and the camera goes mental. This is reproducible on a stock install with just Ven's and FAR.

Also, like Captain Planet, I'm not asking you to fix the problem, just wondering if you might have any idea what's causing it. For now, I'm going to ditch Ven's, as FAR is such an essential part of this game for me. It's one of those amazing mods I wouldn't play without.

KSP 0.90 Windows 32-bit, Ven's Stock Parts Revamp 1.7.1, Ferram Aerospace Research 0.14.6. Logs are available at the following link - but I couldn't find any hints there (although I have to admit I don't really know what i'm looking for):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/53e7z6wc3gy9i3a/AACaNFdK2rWsHgXKslobiNcZa?dl=0

Oddly, I'm also running both Ven's and FAR and have no such problem...

[Wanderfound]

NICe guys I'm looking forward in a video but the picture tutorial was also helpful! I think Since a lot of people use FAR now a good in dept tutorial will be appreciated by people like me who understand the basics but are now starting to create more advanced crafts. Rockets are easy but it get's more complicated when u have to create a space shuttle like craft who has to be stable on launch and be able to land like a glider. So using all the far tools in the VAB and SPH is very helpful if you can understand it in depth and use all your tools to help you balance your craft!

You might get some use out of a few of the tutorials I've put together. Particularly http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90747-Kerbodyne-SSTO-Division-Omnibus-Thread?p=1353891&viewfull=1#post1353891 & http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/craigmotbey/Kerbal/Tutorials/Hangar%20to%20Landing/story &

[Dermeister]

You might get some use out of a few of the tutorials I've put together. Particularly http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90747-Kerbodyne-SSTO-Division-Omnibus-Thread?p=1353891&viewfull=1#post1353891 & http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/craigmotbey/Kerbal/Tutorials/Hangar%20to%20Landing/story &

http://youtu.be/PjA8hR43G48

I will check it out thanks

[UnanimousCoward]

Oddly, I'm also running both Ven's and FAR and have no such problem...

That is odd. Have you jiggered with FAR's settings in any way?

Here's a video of the effect. No audio for some reason (FRAPS and YouTube noob). The capsule starts going loopy just a couple of seconds before the end thanks to limitations of the free version of FRAPS, but once it bugs out, it's unrecoverable.

---Update

Well, I found a rather bizarre workaround to the problem. I reentered the atmosphere with the engine still attached as I'd heard that the problem doesn't manifest itself then. It still did though - my craft rotated to prograde and started wobbling. Then I staged the engine.

At this point, the separated engine stage seemed to take the weirdness with it and the command pod started behaving normally again. Bizarre.

Well, at least I can use these pods again, even if it is a rather unconventional reentry procedure...

Logs: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0q92f9vbwbz29t1/AACjLKOupw2guLI1zeIiPRP2a?dl=0

Edited January 31, 2015 by UnanimousCoward

[Bakase]

That is odd. Have you jiggered with FAR's settings in any way?

Nope! I'll do some more testing, I guess. What kind of orbit were you re-entering from?

[UnanimousCoward]

Nope! I'll do some more testing, I guess. What kind of orbit were you re-entering from?

The video was just a quick test. Kerbal X straight up to about 150 km, then back down. I've done a bit more testing, and from a circular orbit, the effect will happen every time with the capsule coming in by itself, but if there's an engine stage attached, it doesn't happen.

At least that's some kind of workaround, though: ditch the engine a little after reentering the atmosphere, and everything seems to be OK.

--Update

It's been pointed out on Ven's thread that this effect only occurs if Ven's automatic pod fairings are active. If you disable those fairings in the VAB, then everything's normal again. There must be something to do with the way those fairings interact with FAR. Maybe it's similar to the issue with the inflatable heatshield from Deadly Reentry?

Edited January 31, 2015 by UnanimousCoward

[SkyRender]

That uncontrollable oscillation...! That insane rotation...! That's exactly what I keep encountering with FAR! In fact, I ran into the strangest variant of it yet yesterday: a QBE core with 8 Structural Pylons ringing it, plus one on top, plus a procedural fairing base below it was launched up about 10,000m for a lithobraking test. What happened next was absolutely insane: the QBE started spinning, faster and faster, completely out of my control! It bled off so much velocity on the way down during this uncontrollable spin that it hit the ground at only 70m/s. It looked like some sort of FAR variant of the infiniglide bug, but what caught my attention in all of it was how the QBE was spinning up to absolutely insane speeds along its roll axis. The oscillation effect I've run into even with craft that are otherwise completely stock and the only mod running is FAR, so I'm thinking it's something in FAR itself causing the see-saw motion.