[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[tetryds]

Well, to achieve a high AoA you have to either design your aircraft to have low lift and high control, or is kill your lift somehow.

%AoA deflection on canards is enough to provide that, and also artificial stability, you just need to set it right.

But I rather pull insane gs instead, the kerbals can take it, haha.

Now I am interested on this, will put a supermaneuverable design on my to-do list, not too hard, just never took the time.

[Hodo]

Well, to achieve a high AoA you have to either design your aircraft to have low lift and high control, or is kill your lift somehow.

%AoA deflection on canards is enough to provide that, and also artificial stability, you just need to set it right.

But I rather pull insane gs instead, the kerbals can take it, haha.

Now I am interested on this, will put a supermaneuverable design on my to-do list, not too hard, just never took the time.

I know the feeling, the craft in the second pic was because of a similar train of thought. I wanted to know how reverse swept wings handled at supersonic speeds, and found that they are a bit more stable at those speeds. Now I am starting to toy with new forward swept wing designs and super agile fighters. It has really reshaped my thinking process.

This is an early design in that train of thought....

And it far exceeded expectations.

[Van Disaster]

Not the best design for this but it was there. Leading edges tied to AoA stop the rest of the wing stalling. Surfaces can partly stall, but it can still be a bit harsh.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Van Disaster

[UnusualAttitude]

Also, are supermaneuverable aircraft feasible to make in FAR?

True supermaneuvrability in certain modern fighters (Su-30, MiG-29OVT, F-22...) is achieved mainly through two features lacking from stock KSP or FAR: digital fly-by-wire (allowing unstable but highly maneuvrable aerodynamic designs to be flyable), and thrust vectoring (above and beyond the one or two degrees of gimballing we have on our engines in KSP).

However, if anyone manages to simulate supermaneuvrability by posting a video of maneuvers such as the J-turn or Pugachev's Cobra, I will be extremely impressed....

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Su-27_Cobra_2b.png#/media/File:Su-27_Cobra_2b.png

[tetryds]

True supermaneuvrability in certain modern fighters (Su-30, MiG-29OVT, F-22...) is achieved mainly through two features lacking from stock KSP or FAR: digital fly-by-wire (allowing unstable but highly maneuvrable aerodynamic designs to be flyable), and thrust vectoring (above and beyond the one or two degrees of gimballing we have on our engines in KSP).

However, if anyone manages to simulate supermaneuvrability by posting a video of maneuvers such as the J-turn or Pugachev's Cobra, I will be extremely impressed....

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Su-27_Cobra_2b.png#/media/File:Su-27_Cobra_2b.png

So, you say more than 90 degrees of AoA and return...

Will give it a try when I have time, no fly-by-wire, but %AoA and hand-at-joystick may suffice.

That's gonna be tricky, and I will work on all the challenge planes things before doing it (check my sig), but I will give it a try.

Since not even real fighters use only aerodynamics, some reaction wheels and RCS/Vernors may be necessary.

Don't brace yourself for it though, I have a lot to do and something like this would take a very long time from my part.

[UnusualAttitude]

Yes, post-stall control of the aircraft even at ridiculous angles of attack and/or sideslip is the essence of supermaneuvrability, allowing tricks such as the backflip or the cobra. Regardless of the tools KSP provides (SAS spamming, RCS), it could make for a fun challenge.

Look forward to seeing your attempts if you have time, and will look into it myself when back from hols...

[Max.10.07]

I don't know if this was asked, but does it cover parts that are in the airless shadow behind a part that moves the air outwards? Also, doens't seem to work with kerbals in cargobays :c

[DaMichel]

Yes, post-stall control of the aircraft even at ridiculous angles of attack and/or sideslip is the essence of supermaneuvrability, allowing tricks such as the backflip or the cobra. Regardless of the tools KSP provides (SAS spamming, RCS), it could make for a fun challenge.

Look forward to seeing your attempts if you have time, and will look into it myself when back from hols...

I actually managed to do it ages ago. But i think it was rather due to bug using. No way this crazy thing could work IRL.

IIRC the wings did not stall during this, which they should. Also i think this has been fixed! Aww... well looks like it put a reaction wheel on this thing, too. So ...

I don't know if this was asked, but does it cover parts that are in the airless shadow behind a part that moves the air outwards? Also, doens't seem to work with kerbals in cargobays :c

No it doesn't. It only works when parts are stacked together with attach nodes. So building cargo bays from panel pieces does not work.

Not sure about the Kerbal in the cargobay. Perhaps cargobays only work on things that are attached to your vessel. Perhaps it works if you put him in a command chair.

Edited April 23, 2015 by DaMichel

[bdito]

I actually managed to do it ages ago. But i think it was rather due to bug using. No way this crazy thing could work IRL.

http://i.imgur.com/rj7Shc4.jpg

I don't know. Maverick pulled it off several times with Goose.

[smjjames]

I know it'd be too late to do anything about it, but does anybody know why FAR is spamming this error when I transfer kerbals from a ship to a base (both connected by MKS flexotube, basically a KAS pipe) on Duna?

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

at SpriteText.UpdateMesh () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at SpriteText.set_Text (System.String value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARControlSys.ChangeSurfVelocity (SurfaceVelMode velMode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARControlSys.LateUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

[Hodo]

I know it'd be too late to do anything about it, but does anybody know why FAR is spamming this error when I transfer kerbals from a ship to a base (both connected by MKS flexotube, basically a KAS pipe) on Duna?

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

at SpriteText.UpdateMesh () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at SpriteText.set_Text (System.String value) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARControlSys.ChangeSurfVelocity (SurfaceVelMode velMode) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARControlSys.LateUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

I think Ferram4 is going to need the whole output.log to tell you. But it most likely is not related to FAR. Looks like a sprite problem.

[Crzyrndm]

I know it'd be too late to do anything about it, but does anybody know why FAR is spamming this error when I transfer kerbals from a ship to a base (both connected by MKS flexotube, basically a KAS pipe) on Duna?

Looks like this is the culprit for the spam. I'm guessing that switching vessels through the tube didn't cause a refresh of the cached IVA speedometer props and there's no null checking there. You will need to make sure that is the first/only error that gets generated though, often the spammed ones are just trash caused by something else.

But it most likely is not related to FAR. Looks like a sprite problem.

Sprite's at the top because it has to go through a couple of Unity classes to set the speed text. It still originates in a bad FAR call (although why it's bad is difficult to say without full log and/or replication)

Edited April 24, 2015 by Crzyrndm

[smjjames]

Well, I am using KIS, so it might be related to that somehow.

[DaMichel]

Oh well, this happens to be a bit of sloppy code that i contributed.

I never tested it with KAS, and given its special docking features i'm not surprised that this code fails. I'm going to try to fix it.

[Van Disaster]

Initial tests seem to show FAR should have no problem.

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I turned off all the reaction wheels to start with & just used stock SAS ( given I can't grasp a stick at the moment ), I managed to get the thing to noseover onto it's back & fly controllably backwards for a while; unfortunately forgot to check TWR! 0.8 is not enough for this sort of thing, so eventually it ended up in the sea.

CoL is somewhat forward of CoM although not that much, no stability issues.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Wanderfound]

Most of my ridiculous AoA jobbies are small-winged deltas (often reverse delta) with AoA-sensitive canards and excessive TWR. Throw it into a major stall, high-speed VTOL on the tail.

[Van Disaster]

Bit more messing around having fun. Someone with a stick needs to do this stuff really...

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Still has a TWR < 1, mind. Not been using any reaction wheels or SAS yet.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Temeter]

Looks like KSP 1.0 is a lot more forgiving than FAR. Not surprised, not complaining, fits the nature vanilla KSP.

I'd guess there will still be a lot of demand for a realistic aerodynamics mod. *wink*

[tetryds]

Looks like KSP 1.0 is a lot more forgiving than FAR. Not surprised, not complaining, fits the nature vanilla KSP.

I'd guess there will still be a lot of demand for a realistic aerodynamics mod. *wink*

Have you tried nuFAR?

It's so amazing I can't even describe.

[Hodo]

Looks like KSP 1.0 is a lot more forgiving than FAR. Not surprised, not complaining, fits the nature vanilla KSP.

I'd guess there will still be a lot of demand for a realistic aerodynamics mod. *wink*

So the new model is unimpressive to me from the live stream, while it is an improvement it isn't something I would find fun, I will stick to FAR.

[Cairan]

So the new model is unimpressive to me from the live stream, while it is an improvement it isn't something I would find fun, I will stick to FAR.

Indeed, I think they don't model ground effect yet... On that topic, neither does FAR/NEAR I think... That would be a nice addition to implement the ground effect, the equation for that isn't too complicated looking at my precious Introduction to Flight hardcover (Anderson).

[tetryds]

Indeed, I think they don't model ground effect yet... On that topic, neither does FAR/NEAR I think... That would be a nice addition to implement the ground effect, the equation for that isn't too complicated looking at my precious Introduction to Flight hardcover (Anderson).

Last time I checked it was too much for too little to implement ground effect.

Maybe it's worth now, but before it wasn't.

[Temeter]

So the new model is unimpressive to me from the live stream, while it is an improvement it isn't something I would find fun, I will stick to FAR.

The new model looks like a lot of fun to me, there are insane things to be done. Being unrealistic or forgiving does not exclude complexity.

I like to have a much more realistic alternative, though. Choice is still OP.

[Svm420]

Have you tried nuFAR?

It's so amazing I can't even describe.

How stable is it? Is it fully compatible with pwing mods and other aero parts from mods? I know anything relying on the dll will be borked till they are official adapted to nuFAR. Is realfuels compatible? How FAR are we from full release? Day 0 1.0?

[Crzyrndm]

How stable is it? Is it fully compatible with pwing mods and other aero parts from mods? I know anything relying on the dll will be borked till they are official adapted to nuFAR. Is realfuels compatible? How FAR are we from full release? Day 0 1.0?

B9 PWings is compatible as of yesterday (once I/ferram add a MM Patch), but the latest FAR branch has a few annoying issues (Mk2 cargo bays don't work, deleting the root part requires a scene reload). Most parts should be compatible without a hitch from what I've seen.

The new analysis tool is downright amazing though

EDIT

// MM patch
@PART[B9_Aero_Wing_Procedural*]:AFTER[FerramAerospaceResearch]
{
    @MODULE[GeometryPartModule]
    {
        %forceUseMeshes = True
    }
}

Edited April 25, 2015 by Crzyrndm