Request for Mod Maintainer/Handoff

[Northstar1989]

I am looking for someone to take over the Neatherdyne Mass Driver Mod.

It was last confirmed to work in 1.7.3 though it needs a recompile, apparently (I'm not great with this kind of computer stuff- just real life physics, chemistry, and math...  I'm a Biologist by training, on the path to retraining as a physician...)

Still, it was a great mod while it was current.  Scott Manley and Kottabos Games even both did videos featuring it- as did several mod fans!

(FWIW, Kottabos did a much better job explaining the mod's use than Manley- but I've linked both videos below)

I hope the videos are enticing/ get someone to want to use/update/maintain the mod!

Also, to give anyone a full picture of the pertinent details, I was in the process of trying to update the models for the mod, and add new/longer parts, when I had to fall off my KSP gaming/modding several years ago (got a new job as an EMT, was too busy for modding and barely had time/energy to play after long hours at work...)

It may be possible to follow up and use one of those models if you're really determined.  One of the chief goals I had for the mod going forward was to add newer, simpler models and elongated parts, so players could build 1-2 km long Mass Driver tubes with ease (important for gradual accelerations that won't knock out/kill Kerbals, and for reaching really high speeds with very heavy rockets in Real Solar System and such...)

The mod was balanced around real-world data on what's physically possible for Mass Drivers (notably, documents related to "StarTram" and other such ideas that didn't make it off the drawing boards).

However, much like using RealFuels engines in stock KSP, these parts could tend to be a little OP'd for the stock game (personally, I played on RSS 3.2x most of the time back then- and it wasn't quite as OP'd even there).  So some debate arose around balancing, and I was a little too stubborn for my own good.  A wiser modder might spin off the base configs as a RSS/RO set of configs, and create a new/nerfed set for use on stock-sized Kerbin...

These words of advice are only that, though.  Whoever takes this over is free to use the mod however they wish...

(The license gives pretty much free reign to take over the mod and use it however desired...  See "CDDL-1" licenses for more information...  The main distinction from a more common GPL license as I understand it is CDDL-1 is stringently "copyleft", meaning you CANNOT reduce the rights or commercialize any derivative products- they have to remain similarly free and open to the public...  IIRC, the CDDL-1 license was inherited from another mod it got the original parts from, which as you can see meant I had to keep it CDDL-1...)

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[VoidCosmos]

I am interested in adopting. But I am not a modeler.. So 

[Northstar1989]

2 hours ago, VoidCosmos said:

I am interested in adopting. But I am not a modeler.. So 

Do you have the skills to become one?

Anybody can (and if they think they're up to it, shpuld) go and make a branch/copy of this mod at any time: based on the license it's under they don't need my permission to do so.

But what I started this thread for was to try and draw someone with the skills to maintain and expand this mod into the future...

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

5 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

I am looking for someone to take over the Neatherdyne Mass Driver Mod.

I am interested, although not a part modeler.  The code is one thing, looks like there are several usable suggestions in the other thread.

I would defer to @FreeThinker first, since he was (apparently) the last person to touch the mod.

It not actually a mod that I would use much, especially on kerbin, but on another planet, would be much more useful when there is no atmosphere to get into way

[FreeThinker]

I have done some additional work on the mod but never released it. Not sure if I can still find it.

[Northstar1989]

51 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I am interested, although not a part modeler.  The code is one thing, looks like there are several usable suggestions in the other thread.

I would defer to @FreeThinker first, since he was (apparently) the last person to touch the mod.

No part modeling experience necessary!  All that's needed is someone to run/maintain the mod: maintaining the code for updates, working out any bugs that may arise, and finding other people with expertise to expand the mod/ add models and such as you see fit.

I actually tried to recruit @FreeThinkerto take over the mod before, but he seems to have his hands (understandably) quite busy with KSP Interstellar- probably the largest/ most complex, awesome mod to ever grace this game...

51 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

It not actually a mod that I would use much, especially on kerbin, but on another planet, would be much more useful when there is no atmosphere to get into way

Get to know the mod and you'll love it.  It really is a much more elegant, simple way to improve the efficiency of your rockets than optimizing every detail of the staging and design.  You quickly come to wonder why space programs don't at least use short mass drivers of a few hundred meters in real life... (of course there are major engineering challenges to building something that draws this much power, this quickly: not unlike building a Supercollider)

Of course, actually playing the mod regularly isn't a prerequisite for maintaining it (although it is helpful).  Just getting this thing up to date and "officially" released for 1.9.x should go a LONG way towards getting players using it again, and popular mods tend to have a tendency to keep going on their own- as eager fans step in to maintain it as others step aside...

In that sense, Scott Manley, Kottabos, and several other prominent YouTubers doing videos on or shout-outs for this mod back when it was current was probably one of the best things that could have ever happened to it.  It means players will flock back to it sooner if it comes awake again- as they tend to remember when someone like that introduces/teaches a mod to them... (and 2 major YouTubers EACH spent at leadt 30 min on it)

And if players see the mod up-to-date AND releasing new features: especially those that improve their quality-of-life; like longer tube parts to reduce part-spam, high and low-res textures for newer and older computers respectively, and multiple different selectable config sets for stock or various different upscale Kerbin sizes, as well as maybe extras like a patch to allow use of KSP-Interstellar Megajoules instead of EC for launches- which are easier to conceptualize when you need really huge amounts of power; THEN players will flock to the mod in droves, and likely remain loyal to it and willing to take it off your hands (so it doesn't go into hibernation again) even if you don't have time to maintain it anymore yourself...

Just things to think about...  I'll hope you decide you have time and effort in you to become the mod's new maintainer!

And if you do, never forget the value of others chipping in and helping!  Great leaders lead by example, but AMAZING leaders find other highly-capable people to delegate to who do better work even than themself and inspire others without their having to put in nearly so much work...  A great mod is a team effort- and part of that team are other dev's, and part are amazing YouTubers like Kottabos and Scott Manley: who provide desperately-needed marketing, publicity, and education on how our mods work to players for us... (and sometimes, may even notice things about the mods we miss ourselves!)

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[FreeThinker]

Despite their coolness,  the main problem of this technology is that it is not really practical in itself to launch anything into space from KTC as to do so requires extreme high speeds which due to friction quickly disintegrate after overheating. It only way I can think of it would make sense to use this would be during mining operations on airless but moon/planets but this makes it extremely specialized hardware

Edited May 13, 2020 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

On 5/13/2020 at 7:54 AM, FreeThinker said:

Despite their coolness,  the main problem of this technology is that it is not really practical in itself to launch anything into space from KTC as to do so requires extreme high speeds which due to friction quickly disintegrate after overheating. It only way I can think of it would make sense to use this would be during mining operations on airless but moon/planets but this makes it extremely specialized hardware

Ballistic Coefficient, and heat management systems.

The higher your Ballistic Coefficient, the more slowly you lose speed to Drag.  This is *imperative* to efficient Mass Driver launches.  A tiny, short rocket with low density will barely make it into the upper atmosphere; but a large, long, streamlined, dense rocket will easily coast all the way into space.

Heat-shielding is also key.  In the fan-made videos I saw a player mod some fairings to have heat resistance close to the melting point of Tungsten- which is less unrealistic than you might think.

In real life, coating fairings with a thin layer of tungsten and encasing much of the front of the rocket with them would help.  As would circulating water in the aeroshell, to absorb massive amounts of heat with its high Heat Capacity- and then be dumped out the back as steam.  Both solutions (heat-resistant materials and water-cooling) have been looked at to get the most from (theoretical) Mass Drivers in real life.  Ablative shielding could also be of some use.

Bundled Configs to allow players to create more expensive, more heat-resistant fairings would be a boon to the mod in KSP.  As would more complex ablative or water-cooled systems.

But ultimately, part of the real value in a Mass Driver is that it gives a huge initial speed boost: allowing use of engine setups with TWR less than 1 much of the way up (especially useful in RealFuels, Real Solar System games- where 1st stage engines make up much of Launch Vehicle costs), and allows rockets to quickly escape the lower atmosphere and so rely almost entirely on more efficient Upper Stage engines.  There's also the initial speed-boost, which saves you 1-2 km/s Delta-V easily: nothing to sneeze at.

Ultimately one of the chief virtues of a Mass Driver system is it pushes up Payload Fraction: making reusability MUCH easier to achieve in Real Solar System.  Use it, and you'll see it takes much of the stress out of rocket-building as well...

 

EDIT: Actually, it was Silicon Carbide he modded the fairing to imitate

Edited May 19, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

Ok, I'll go ahead and work on the adoption.

Initially, it will be using the same parts as the original.  I will look at the alternative models later.

One thing I think can be added or fixed is related to the need for a decoupler beforehand.  I think that doing some sort of a delayed activation after staging may be easier, along with a built-in decoupler so that you don't need to add that extra part

[VoidCosmos]

3 hours ago, Northstar1989 said:

No part modeling experience necessary!  All that's needed is someone to run/maintain the mod: maintaining the code for updates, working out any bugs that may arise, and finding other people with expertise to expand the mod/ add models and such as you see fit.

I could do it

 

11 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Ok, I'll go ahead and work on the adoption.

Initially, it will be using the same parts as the original.  I will look at the alternative models later.

One thing I think can be added or fixed is related to the need for a decoupler beforehand.  I think that doing some sort of a delayed activation after staging may be easier, along with a built-in decoupler so that you don't need to add that extra part

Beat me to it

[linuxgurugamer]

3 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

I have done some additional work on the mod but never released it. Not sure if I can still find it.

If you could look for it, would be appreciated

[Northstar1989]

39 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

One thing I think can be added or fixed is related to the need for a decoupler beforehand.  I think that doing some sort of a delayed activation after staging may be easier, along with a built-in decoupler so that you don't need to add that extra part

There already is a countdown you can activate: see the first video in the first post.  Having a built-in decoupler might save players a part, but also risks creating confusion or accidentally splitting a rocket in half during ascent (if they launch a stack of these to the Mun or Minmus, for instance).  It's up to you if you create a branch/fork/ choose your term for taking over a copy of the mod...

28 minutes ago, VoidCosmos said:

I could do it

 

Beat me to it

You're free to both work together on this.  Or create separate, competing branches.  Or whatever you want really: the license lets you do pretty much anything so long as you keep it free and non-commercial, and acknowledge prior authors (note that I am NOT the original author for these parts, and you'll find credit/attribution given to the original author of the now-defunct mod they cane from, on the old release thread and somewhere in the part config comments or readme, if I recall correctly where I put it...  You should keep that old attribution around somewhere, though you can move it around to different files so long as it still exists within the mod...)

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

Good news is that I have it compiled cleanly for 1.8

Have some packaging to do and testing

[VoidCosmos]

33 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

 

You're free to both work together on this.  Or create separate, competing branches.  Or whatever you want really: the license lets you do pretty much anything so long as you keep it free and non-commercial, and acknowledge prior authors (note that I am NOT the original author for these parts, and you'll find credit/attribution given to the original author of the now-defunct mod they cane from, on the old release thread and somewhere in the part config comments or readme, if I recall correctly where I put it...  You should keep that old attribution around somewhere, though you can move it around to different files so long as it still exists within the mod...)

I don't know. Not sure on LGG's opinion

[Northstar1989]

20 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Good news is that I have it compiled cleanly for 1.8

Have some packaging to do and testing

Awesome!

You guys may find this part of the development thread particularly helpful, by the way:

This is where @michaelhester07 (original creator of the part) popped in to provide a little wisdom about how he coded the part originally, etc.

Note particularly:

"It compiles with Visual Studio 2013 express and links to the DLLs found in the KSP folder."

[linuxgurugamer]

5 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

This is where @michaelhester07 (original creator of the part) popped in to provide a little wisdom about how he coded the part originally, etc.

Note particularly:

"It compiles with Visual Studio 2013 express and links to the DLLs found in the KSP folder."

Now it compiles with VisualStudio 2019 and links to the DLLs found in the KSP folder.

I'm renaming files and the mod itself to reflect the current name, will also be updating the code to replace obsolete calls

Edited May 13, 2020 by linuxgurugamer

[Northstar1989]

20 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Now it compiles with VisualStudio 2019 and links to the DLLs found in the KSP folder.

I'm renaming files and the mod itself to reflect the current name, will also be updating the code to replace obsolete calls

Awesome!

What are "obsolete calls", by the way?

I know next-to-nothing about coding.  It's a small miracle, actually, the mod survived as long as it did under my maintenance... (I *did* try and recruit others with coding knowledge wherever possible, though...)

[linuxgurugamer]

7 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

Awesome!

What are "obsolete calls", by the way?

I know next-to-nothing about coding.  It's a small miracle, actually, the mod survived as long as it did under my maintenance... (I *did* try and recruit others with coding knowledge wherever possible, though...)

KSP has changed over time.  For backwards compatibility, they keep certain things around, but put messages in which say it's obsolete and should be replaced with the new call.  usually more efficient, etc.

[Northstar1989]

21 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

KSP has changed over time.  For backwards compatibility, they keep certain things around, but put messages in which say it's obsolete and should be replaced with the new call.  usually more efficient, etc.

Awesome!

By the way, if I might suggest a balance change to the mod (which I can even implement myself if you send me the updated configs-, assuming you've already started in on them) I never got around to implementing myself, based on what I learned about Mass Drivers as I researched them in detail...

The REAL challenge to building a Mass Driver is not in its construction, but in storing and quickly releasing the large amounts of electricity needed in a short period of time.

Therefore, the parts should be moved from the Construction nodes (Advanced Construction, if I recall) to the Electrical nodes in the tech tree.  And they should be moved even further back: probably to the very final electrical node of the stick tech tree, or to a rather advanced node of the Community Tech Tree (CTT compatibility patches are also needed for the mod if I recall... Don't think I created one already- and not sure I remember how to do so anymore...)

It's up to you, of course.  Your (branch of) mod at this point.  I just think that moving the parts to more advanced and less used nodes like this might encourage players to accept the balancing as not being "Overpowered", as well as being more realistic- and might also reduce the calls to nerf the drivers in other ways that might be less realistic and upset some players- particularly RSS players, until/if seperate balance patches are released for RSS and stock.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

3 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

Awesome!

By the way, if I might suggest a balance change to the mod (which I can even implement myself if you send me the updated configs-, assuming you've already started in on them) I never got around to implementing myself, based on what I learned about Mass Drivers as I researched them in detail...

The REAL challenge to building a Mass Driver is not in its construction, but in storing and quickly releasing the large amounts of electricity needed in a short period of time.

Therefore, the parts should be moved from the Construction nodes (Advanced Construction, if I recall) to the Electrical nodes in the tech tree.  And they should be moved even further back: probably to the very final electrical node of the stick tech tree, or to a rather advanced node of the Community Tech Tree (CTT compatibility patches are also needed for the mod if I recall... Don't think I created one already- and not sure I remember how to do so anymore...)

Sure.  The mod as I got it from Github has TechRequired = hidden and TechHidden = true, category = none on most of the parts.

I'm changing it to:

	TechRequired = experimentalScience
	TechHidden = False
	category = Electrical

I haven't looked at the CTT patches yet.  That was for the Accelerator2Meter parts

I'm looking at the MassDriver parts now

Still in flux, so don't hold me to this yet.  Most parts aren't showing up, I'm looking into why

Edited May 13, 2020 by linuxgurugamer

[Northstar1989]

15 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Sure.  The mod as I got it from Github has TechRequired = hidden and TechHidden = true, category = none on most of the parts.

I'm changing it to:

	TechRequired = experimentalScience
	TechHidden = False
	category = Electrical

I haven't looked at the CTT patches yet.  That was for the Accelerator2Meter parts

I'm looking at the MassDriver parts now

Weird.  Would've sworn I assigned tech nodes to all the parts...  After all: I used these parts extensively in my own Career playthrough (try the download from K-stuff or SpaceDock instead of GitHub?  There might be *other* differences as well: the GitHub version might NOT be the most updated...)

 

Btw, if you do end up deciding to change the part balance at some point, I suggest keeping the originally-balanced parts around somewhere so that players who want to make an RSS patch on their own have something to work off of.

The part balance in the *most recent* version of the parts (which If I recall correctly, was the one on K-stuff or Spacedock) was balanced for Real Solar System already- so the original configs from the last version I worked on wouldn't leave much to need changing for a RSS compatibility patch, if someone (such as an excited fan of the mod- not necessarily you) wanted to create one someday...

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

Just now, Northstar1989 said:

Weird.  Would've sworn I assigned tech nodes to all the parts...  After all: I used these parts extensively in my own Career playthrough (try the download from SpaceDock/*** malicious site we no longer use *** instead of GitHub?  There might be *other* differences as well: the GitHub version might NOT be the most updated...)

 

Btw, if you do end up deciding to change the part balance at some point, I suggest keeping the originally-balanced parts around somewhere so that players who want to make an RSS patch on their own have something to work off of.

The part balance in the *most recent* version of the parts (which If I recall correctly, was the one on *** malicious site we no longer use *** or Spacedock) was balanced for Real Solar System already- so the original configs from the last version I worked on wouldn't leave much to need changing for a RSS compatibility patch, if someone (such as an excited fan of the mod- not necessarily you) wanted to create one someday...

I actually pulled it from Github, I'll get the 1.7.3 version from Spacedock and compare

Oh, I see.  Github repo had a bunch more, I'll backtrack and put in the ones from the 1.7.3 version

[Northstar1989]

9 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I actually pulled it from Github, I'll get the 1.7.3 version from Spacedock and compare

Should've warned you about that ahead of time!

Since I wasn't very good with Girhub, FreeThinker did the uploading there for me, I think.  Not sure I uploaded there myself.  Definitely didn't towards the very end where I made a few tweaks to the balancing and tried to fix the mass driver stacks sometimes imploding by tweaking a few things in the config.. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Northstar1989

[linuxgurugamer]

1 minute ago, Northstar1989 said:

Should've warned you about that ahead of time!

Since I wasn't very good with Girhub, FreeThinker did the uploading there for me, I think.  Not sure I uploaded there myself.  Definitely didn't towards the very end where I made a few tweaks to the balancing and tried to fix the mass driver stacks sometimes imploding by tweaking a few things in the config.. 

Would you think it would be a problem to change the locations in the tech tree, for the RO people?

Also, is the github source up-to-date?  I'm a bit concerned about that now

[Northstar1989]

15 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Would you think it would be a problem to change the locations in the tech tree, for the RO people?

Not at all- since this would move it towards being MORE realistic- something the RO people are occasionally just fanatical about...

As for the source, I don't know.  I certainly didn't change anything beyond the config files.  But @FreeThinker did some work for me on rooting out a bug or two, as well as re-compiling for later versions of KSP, if I'm not mistaken.

Most of the history of the mod is right on that development thread I linked to.  But I'll check my inbox for any old PM's discussing it with @FreeThinker that might provide me a clue, as well...

Sorry my memory's so bad- a LOT of things happened in the last 4-5 years to crowd that knowledge out for me...