Craft Construction Time

[shdwlrd]

16 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Agreed, unless you're flying in atmo, launching/landing or doing silly rocket/rover/vehicle hijinks, the vast majority of most missions are done on the map screen setting maneuver nodes and warping between them. It most definitely is a building game though, my time in the VAB/SPH trumps all my flight time by a large margin.

Yep, this. I just have add if you like doing aerial tours of planets, you can spend more time flying than building and tweaking designs. Or driving if that is your thing.

[mattinoz]

1 hour ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Agreed, unless you're flying in atmo, launching/landing or doing silly rocket/rover/vehicle hijinks, the vast majority of most missions are done on the map screen setting maneuver nodes and warping between them. It most definitely is a building game though, my time in the VAB/SPH trumps all my flight time by a large margin.

Ok, now I feel weird for just hanging out in orbit on about 10x Warp and just enjoying the panel spin underneath me while pretending to be weightless.

Just assumed it was a thing everyone does in KSP. Like spacewalks on Duna transfers just to stretch the virtual legs. I feel like I'm doing it wrong if the map screen is the main interface.

[James M]

1 hour ago, mattinoz said:

Ok, now I feel weird for just hanging out in orbit on about 10x Warp and just enjoying the panel spin underneath me while pretending to be weightless.

Just assumed it was a thing everyone does in KSP. Like spacewalks on Duna transfers just to stretch the virtual legs. I feel like I'm doing it wrong if the map screen is the main interface.

Yeah but do you do that for 30 minutes? Not unless you're waiting for your science to finish baking in the Mobile Processing Lab. lol

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, James M said:

Maneuver nodes, contracts (For career modes of course), and trip planning, are all things I'd say make up a good chunk of the game play. I guess my question is, how much time do we generally spend managing our flights vs the amount of time we actually spend flying them? Diablo isn't a management game because you only spend maybe 20% of game time in the inventory screen. The Witcher isn't a relationship sim because you only spend a small chunk of game time actually sitting there speaking to npcs. You get what I'm saying? The amount of time spend managing things properly in ksp actually rivals the amount of time we spend straight up flying our crafts. In fact I'd argue most of our time is spend constructing rockets, time warping and maneuver planning if anything. 

We have different definitions of "management" when it comes to video games. Sure, you're managing your ship's ability to fly when you make a maneuver node, but to me if someone pitched a game as a management sim because of something like that, I'd think they were lying.

If you were setting up routes and deciding how many ships per month flew them, then sure that'd be a management function. Making a maneuver node on the one ship you're flying is - well - flying that ship.

[James M]

1 minute ago, Superfluous J said:

We have different definitions of "management" when it comes to video games. Sure, you're managing your ship's ability to fly when you make a maneuver node, but to me if someone pitched a game as a management sim because of something like that, I'd think they were lying.

If you were setting up routes and deciding how many ships per month flew them, then sure that'd be a management function. Making a maneuver node on the one ship you're flying is - well - flying that ship.

Compare KSP to I dunno.. Elite Dangerous. No Man's Sky. Ace Combat. That's flying. Of course two of those things don't use realism space flight whatsoever, but my point is you're actively controlling what you're doing the whole time. You might take a second to plot your next point of interest, but generally you are piloting said ship with your hand on the stick. Half of KSP isn't like that because that's not how space flight really works. From a normal person's perspective, spaceflight is actually pretty boring  The only fun part is takeoff and landing really and those things take like 2 minutes each. Regardless of the planet. (Circularization not included)

[Superfluous J]

4 minutes ago, James M said:

Compare KSP to I dunno.. Elite Dangerous. No Man's Sky. Ace Combat.

Of those I've only played No Man's Sky and IMO it has more management than KSP by a long shot. you buy freighters and send them on missions, getting updates and deciding on if they should continue or not. That there is management. Doesn't matter how much planning you do for your own ship, that's not management, TO ME. Maybe I'm weird.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I'm going to come down on the side of KSP not being a management game. You don't actually manage anything at the space center. All you do is buy things.

Career mode is a management game mode, a poor one since science is useless after you hit Minmus, money feels grindy, reputation is safely ignorable and I have difficulty remembering the existence of strategies.

KSP2 is going to be even more so, with the game not being focused anymore in building everything as monolithic giant rockets out of the KSC but more on building and managing your space infrastructure and connect the various bases/stations with automated supply lines.

[mcwaffles2003]

This is getting silly... KSP is not a management game... 

 

As it stands there is no stock of ships, only those currently flying; money is the only "manageable" resource, and if allocating tech points to techs is "management" then tying ones shoes is mastery of knot theory; there are no supply lines, there is neither micro nor macro management, the closest thing you get to those is upgrading your preset buildings...

This is on the level of calling dark souls a management game because there is an inventory and you have to "manage" souls to upgrade a characters level.

Don't get me wrong, I would like a more simulator heavy space program management mode but to suggest KSP career is that is to call a paper boat the titanic, plain hyperbole.

Edited July 9, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[Lord Aurelius]

3 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

This is getting silly... KSP is not a management game... 

 

As it stands there is no stock of ships, only those currently flying; money is the only "manageable" resource, and if allocating tech points to techs is "management" then tying ones shoes is mastery of knot theory; there are no supply lines, there is neither micro nor macro management, the closest thing you get to those is upgrading your preset buildings...

This is on the level of calling dark souls a management game because there is an inventory and you have to "manage" souls to upgrade a characters level.

Don't get me wrong, I would like a more simulator heavy space program management mode but to suggest KSP career is that is to call a paper boat the titanic, plain hyperbole.

Remember that we're talking about KSP2 here and how we would like to see it improve over KSP1.

Yes, KSP1 career is a bad management game, but it's still described as a management game mode by the devs themselves (see the Steam store page description for career mode). I want to see this aspect of the game vastly improved in KSP2, and time management is a staple of management games that KSP1 handles rather poorly.

That's not to say I want KSP to strictly be a management game, I'm perfectly happy with these systems being limited to a career style game mode, with sandbox/science type games still available for those who don't care for the management side of things.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Lord Aurelius

[Soda Popinski]

4 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

As it stands there is no stock of ships, only those currently flying;

The thread is talking about a hypothetical construction time aspect.  The current KSP1 Kerbal Construction Time mod does have a ship inventory system.  I've got a small fleet of SSTOs, mostly ready to go, with each having different specializations.  I've also got a stock of recovered boosters ready to slap on new 2nd stages to.  I've also got a bunch of cars for my hype-train inspired space train, with a locomotive and a few tankers docked in orbit, an uncrewed locomotive en route to a rendezvous, a science lab/caboose section and lander waiting for a reconditioned launch pad, a probe car, an ISRU unit, and a RCS tank / heat shield being fabricated.

[PlutoISaPlanet]

I think devs are going more for resource management then time management.

[mcwaffles2003]

15 hours ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Remember that we're talking about KSP2 here and how we would like to see it improve over KSP1.

Yes, KSP1 career is a bad management game, but it's still described as a management game mode by the devs themselves (see the Steam store page description for career mode). I want to see this aspect of the game vastly improved in KSP2, and time management is a staple of management games that KSP1 handles rather poorly.

That's not to say I want KSP to strictly be a management game, I'm perfectly happy with these systems being limited to a career style game mode, with sandbox/science type games still available for those who don't care for the management side of things.

That wasn't my argument, I said I'm down for a more management heavy game earlier so long as there is a softer career mode that is more bare bones. This would be good to have for the noobs but also as a better clean slate upon which mods can be developed.

But to suggest KSP 1 is already a management game is quite beyond the pale...

[Lord Aurelius]

7 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

That wasn't my argument, I said I'm down for a more management heavy game earlier so long as there is a softer career mode that is more bare bones. This would be good to have for the noobs but also as a better clean slate upon which mods can be developed.

But to suggest KSP 1 is already a management game is quite beyond the pale...

KSP1 may be a bad management game, but the devs themselves said on the game's Steam store page that career mode was intended to be a management game mode:

"Kerbal Space Program features three gameplay modes. In Science Mode, perform space experiments to unlock new technology and advance the knowledge of Kerbalkind. In Career Mode, oversee every aspect of the space program, including construction, strategy, funding, upgrades, and more. In Sandbox, you are free to build any spacecraft you can think of, with all parts and technology in the game."

[Bej Kerman]

22 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

On 7/9/2020 at 11:35 AM, mcwaffles2003 said:

As it stands there is no stock of ships, only those currently flying;

The thread is talking about a hypothetical construction time aspect.  The current KSP1 Kerbal Construction Time mod does have a ship inventory system.  I've got a small fleet of SSTOs, mostly ready to go, with each having different specializations.  I've also got a stock of recovered boosters ready to slap on new 2nd stages to.  I've also got a bunch of cars for my hype-train inspired space train, with a locomotive and a few tankers docked in orbit, an uncrewed locomotive en route to a rendezvous, a science lab/caboose section and lander waiting for a reconditioned launch pad, a probe car, an ISRU unit, and a RCS tank / heat shield being fabricated.

Without the timers, that would be pretty helpful. But I want to fly my ships, not wait for my ship to finish building despite having already watched myself build it in the editor.

23 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

7 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

That wasn't my argument, I said I'm down for a more management heavy game earlier so long as there is a softer career mode that is more bare bones. This would be good to have for the noobs but also as a better clean slate upon which mods can be developed.

But to suggest KSP 1 is already a management game is quite beyond the pale...

KSP1 may be a bad management game, but the devs themselves said on the game's Steam store page that career mode was intended to be a management game mode:

"Kerbal Space Program features three gameplay modes. In Science Mode, perform space experiments to unlock new technology and advance the knowledge of Kerbalkind. In Career Mode, oversee every aspect of the space program, including construction, strategy, funding, upgrades, and more. In Sandbox, you are free to build any spacecraft you can think of, with all parts and technology in the game."

Regardless, there aren't any timers dictating how long it takes to set a strategy in motion or how long it takes to hire a kerbonaut.

[Lord Aurelius]

50 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Regardless, there aren't any timers dictating how long it takes to set a strategy in motion or how long it takes to hire a kerbonaut.

Yes, as has been discussed quite a lot already in this thread, KSP1 doesn't really have any time management gameplay and doesn't have game-time costs for anything.

[Bej Kerman]

27 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Regardless, there aren't any timers dictating how long it takes to set a strategy in motion or how long it takes to hire a kerbonaut.

Yes, as has been discussed quite a lot already in this thread, KSP1 doesn't really have any time management gameplay and doesn't have game-time costs for anything.

And that's for the better.

[Lord Aurelius]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

And that's for the better.

For certain types of players and gameplay at least, definitely.

[Soda Popinski]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Without the timers, that would be pretty helpful. But I want to fly my ships, not wait for my ship to finish building despite having already watched myself build it in the editor.

That's a good point.  Before I installed KCT, I still had a few SSTOs to save funds and for a little role play.  I'd have to store them somewhere at KSC near the runway, and re-fuel them with a tanker, and taxi them to the runway.  It would be easier with the KCT inventory system.  Note, the KCT inventory system lets you refuel and modify craft in the inventory.  If you do a modification, there's a short construction time.

[mattssheep4]

Guys I don't see why people are always either "Yes, this or that feature should be in the game" or "No, it shouldn't". KSP 1 has done pretty good with customization settings to allow players to choose how they want to play. E.g. the commnet can be turned on or off depending on player preference. There's no doubt in my mind that if a construction time feature is added, it will be optional. As such, I can't honestly say that I care if it's in the game, since if it's not, someone will probably make a mod for it, and people who want that feature will install the mod.