3rd/4th gen Aerial Brawl (FAR + BDAc)

[Pds314]

This is a BDA dogfight competition meant to take place with fighter aircraft loosely inspired by those from roughly around the 1960s to 70s.

 

Modlist:

BDA continued (newest version) and dependencies.

FAR continued (newest version) and dependencies.

Latest compatible KSP version (currently 1.10 is planned unless it proves too problematic).

All DLC (optional).

 

Point system and rules:

1. All fighters must be at or below 100 points in total cost.

 

2. Due to more high tech engines being more expensive and advanced, and legacy engines being cheaper and lower tech, engines cost their maximum nominal static thrust in kN, times the square of their thrust limiter setting.

For example:

A Panther at 100% thrust limiter would cost 130 points. (Clearly this isn't legal)

At 50% thrust limiter, it would cost 32.5 points.

Thrust limiter below 20% will be assumed to be 20% to limit engine spam. There's a limit to how "legacy" your legacy engines can actually get.

Junos are 60% off because otherwise they'd be quite expensive.

 

3. Weapons/parts costs:

.50 cal: 2 points.

30mm Chaingun (locked): 10 points.

20mm Vulcan: 20 points.

30mm GAU-8: 30 points.

Aim-9: 15 points.

AMRAAM: 20 points.

Countermeasure: 2 points.

Command seat as only cockpit: 5 points.

 

4. Aircraft Configuration:

All fighters must have a cockpit, a BDA radar, autopilot, and weapons manager.

No drones. All craft must be Kerballed.

Aircraft should be monoplanes with no unreasonable clipping and intake-engine routing that's at least sort of believable.

ALL reaction wheels and thrust vectoring is prohibited and must be disabled. Including cockpit torque.

If using a command seat, you still have to give it a constructed cockpit a reasonable person would fly in. Not just bolt a lawn chair to the top of a supersonic jet.

Please use 60 parts or less.

 

5. Prohibited parts:

Don't use ECM pods or missiles besides AIM-9 or AMRAAM.

Don't use prop engines.

Don't use modified BDA armor thickness or armor panels.

Don't use tank guns, millennium cannon, CIWS installations, lasers or howitzers.

The rapier engine isn't allowed. Hybrid rockets are too high tech.

A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.S. are not allowed. As they aren't FAR-compatible. Feel free to use control surfaces as spoilers.

Turrets are not allowed unless locked in a forward position.

 

Combat format:

Engagements will be 3v3 with competition distance set at 15 km. Kerbal G limits are ON! (Tournament Pilots will be consistent copies of Val's stats).

A team of aircraft that all run out of ammunition or lands intact loses a fight. But individual aircraft that run out of ammunition or land intact are still considered surviving.

 

All aircraft start with 2 victory points.

A pair of aircraft with the least possible difference in victory points are selected to engage in combat. If multiple such pairs exist, the selection is narrowed to those with the greatest number of victory points. If multiple pairs still remain, a pair is selected randomly among them.

Aircraft that win a battle gain a victory point for each surviving craft.

Aircraft that lose have their victory point count cut in half, rounded down.

Ties don't affect victory points.

Aircraft with zero victory points are eliminated.

 

Total aircraft kills and losses will also be kept track of but do not affect anything.

 

You may submit replacement entries. These must be new or meaningfully modified vehicles and will reset your victory points and elimination status.

You may also request that your current entry be retired.

Changes to entries do not affect currently scheduled combats.

Limit 2 active aircraft per person.

 

The first round began on August 16th. But entries may still be added.

ACTIVE AIRCRAFT:

Aircraft	Creator	Victory points	Battle wins	Battle losses	Aircraft Kills	Aircraft losses	Win streak
IA-102 Super Spectre A-10 IA-103 Strato Spear Su-47 Dingbat - 003 "Greyfox"	@SuicidalInsanity @Xd the great @SuicidalInsanity @Xd the great @Pds314	5 4 3 2 1	1 1 1 1 0	0 0 0 1 1	3 3 0 0 2	1 2 0 0 3	1 1 1 1 0

FORMER AIRCRAFT:

Aircraft	Creator	Victory points	Battle wins	Battle losses	Aircraft Kills	Aircraft losses	Win streak
Dingbat - 006 "Pitviper"	@Pds314	ELIMINATED	0	2	3	6	0

Edited August 18, 2020 by Pds314

[Pds314]

A dummy aircraft "Armed Trainer" so you can shoot at something that can turn and even sometimes evade missiles.

Note: The dummy is a 40 point aircraft powered by a pair of Junos. That being said, it has a Vulcan on it. So, you know, watch out. It can absolutely still shoot you down if you let it sit on your tail.
 

Download Armed Trainer Dummy

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Pds314

[Pds314]

Combat test vs the Dummy. Not the result I was expecting!
 

 

[SuicidalInsanity]

I note a distinct lack of bombs on that dummy.
Sure. I can throw something into the ring. Any preferences on submissions?
If you're interested, despite saying 1.7.x, the BDAc TeamIcons plugin does work in 1.10. I really should remember to update the OP for that at some point...
 

[Pds314]

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

I note a distinct lack of bombs on that dummy.
Sure. I can throw something into the ring. Any preferences on submissions?
If you're interested, despite saying 1.7.x, the BDAc TeamIcons plugin does work in 1.10. I really should remember to update the OP for that at some point...
 

Lol I assume people are gonna take off, but I could give it bombs in case they need a reminder. I'll definitely download the team icons.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Pds314

[Pds314]

10 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

I note a distinct lack of bombs on that dummy.
Sure. I can throw something into the ring. Any preferences on submissions?
If you're interested, despite saying 1.7.x, the BDAc TeamIcons plugin does work in 1.10. I really should remember to update the OP for that at some point...
 

As for preferences on submissions, I'm not sure what you mean?

 

If you mean for aircraft designs, something odd but based in reality (the Dassault Mirage IIIV, a VTOL Mirage III version with 9 separate engines comes to mind) would be cool. Although that particular aircraft probably is cost prohibitive. Maybe an F-20 tigershark would be cool even if rather simple to do.

Possibly surprisingly, the Saab Gripen and Draken are both pretty reasonable even if the Draken might be a bit overweight, even though the Gripen first flew in the 80s and the Draken did so in the 50s. The Draken is a far more unique looking craft.

Some of the heavier fighters and especially interceptors like MiG-25 probably would need significant engine nerfs and whiplashes used to keep their transonic acceleration up. Seeing as even an unarmed MiG-25 is 154 point aircraft. Then again, I'm sure it'll still match the supersonic performance even if you give it 50 points of engines because of the way Kerbal engines dramatically increase power at Mach. Of course, the issue with whiplashes is that they are 600 kg heavier than Panthers with no benefit in static thrust. If you get slow with an enemy on your tail you're probably never getting back up to speed in, say, a 44% Whiplash MiG-25.

Or you could always go for something completely bonkers and ahistorical like having a Goliath at around 30-40% thrust limiter.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Pds314

[sturmhauke]

Scott Manley did a Goliath round in his recent Runway Project competition. There were some interesting designs, but that huge engine is not exactly low profile. It also will overheat if allowed to run at transonic or higher speeds for an extended period, although in combat that's not generally much of an issue.

[SuicidalInsanity]

Submission preference as in how you wanted entries submitted if you wanted them via PM or just links in the thread or whatever.
As for Goliath things - yeah, unorthodox is about the only way you can do it. (@46.5% Throttle it would even be legal!) (Not actual entry.)

Edited August 2, 2020 by SuicidalInsanity

[Pds314]

6 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Submission preference as in how you wanted entries submitted if you wanted them via PM or just links in the thread or whatever.
As for Goliath things - yeah, unorthodox is about the only way you can do it. (@46.5% Throttle it would even be legal!) (Not actual entry.)

I'll accept PM's or links.

7 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

Scott Manley did a Goliath round in his recent Runway Project competition. There were some interesting designs, but that huge engine is not exactly low profile. It also will overheat if allowed to run at transonic or higher speeds for an extended period, although in combat that's not generally much of an issue.

I don't know if overheating is a huge issue considering that any viable build will be on under 50% limiter (which would still be 90 points of engine).

7 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

Scott Manley did a Goliath round in his recent Runway Project competition. There were some interesting designs, but that huge engine is not exactly low profile. It also will overheat if allowed to run at transonic or higher speeds for an extended period, although in combat that's not generally much of an issue.

Yeah most of my testing says planes rarely stay above Mach after the first two turns even if they're not very maneuverable and have huge wings, low drag, and strong engines. Goliath overheating also doesn't happen nearly as much on low thrust limiter settings. I'm pretty sure in my stock Goliath + Thud SSTO challenge it hurt some of the Mach ~2 entries but all they had to do was climb a bit to avoid melting.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Pds314

[Xd the great]

@Pds314 do you use 1.9.1 bdac? Or should I wait for an update?

Also, is FAR updated to 1.10 yet?

EDIT: Are probe cores and the saturn engine allowed?

Edited August 4, 2020 by Xd the great

[Xd the great]

If probe cores and saturn engines are allowed, I present to you:

https://kerbalx.com/Xdthegreat/FAR-combat-drone-4

A kerbal strapped to a drone inside a cargo bay (the plane lacks textures and stuff because... mod problems)

Edited August 5, 2020 by Xd the great

[Pds314]

On 8/4/2020 at 2:15 AM, Xd the great said:

@Pds314 do you use 1.9.1 bdac? Or should I wait for an update?

Also, is FAR updated to 1.10 yet?

EDIT: Are probe cores and the saturn engine allowed?

1.9.1 FAR and BDA work for 1.10 and 1.10.1.

To be honest I'm not sure what a saturn engine is. This is balanced around stock parts. Anything designed for a different challenge likely is either incompatible, unoptimized, or overly expensive unless you adapt it.

Drones are explicitly not allowed. Craft must be kerballed as it says in the OP.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Pds314

[SuicidalInsanity]

The Saturn engine is a Panther clone included with BDA. Looks like ~120% thrust, ~60% mass, ~20% less fuel consumption.
Anyway, got some potential entries ready to go. Apropos of nothing, someone pick a number between 1 and 6.
 

[Xd the great]

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

The Saturn engine is a Panther clone included with BDA. Looks like ~120% thrust, ~60% mass, ~20% less fuel consumption.
Anyway, got some potential entries ready to go. Apropos of nothing, someone pick a number between 1 and 6.

7

3.1415926535897932384...

2 hours ago, Pds314 said:

Drones are explicitly not allowed. Craft must be kerballed as it says in the OP.

But can a kerballed craft have probe cores?

[SuicidalInsanity]

I'm going to treat that as a 3, so looks like I'm entering this. Nice; I can get the least-capable craft in my stable out of the way first.

Spoiler

...
I'm going to guess probe cores aren't allowed, since the presence of one would defeat the point of the G-Limiter being enabled

[Xd the great]

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

I'm going to treat that as a 3, so looks like I'm entering this. Nice; I can get the least-capable craft in my stable out of the way first.

  Hide contents

...
I'm going to guess probe cores aren't allowed, since the presence of one would defeat the point of the G-Limiter being enabled

Wow nice craft.

What about saturn engines? Think they are allowed?

Gah, G force is hard to deal with...

Edited August 8, 2020 by Xd the great

[Xd the great]

My (definitely legal) second entry:

https://kerbalx.com/Xdthegreat/A-10

A replica of A-10, except it uses a 20mm vulcan.

What do you mean this is a fighter competition?

[SuicidalInsanity]

Since two craft per participant are allowed, if you need more entries, I can enter *rolls D6* this as well:

Spoiler

 

[Pds314]

Ok I'm gonna submit two entries as well. I may have to wait until tomorrow to actually run the first match for real life interference reasons.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Pds314

[Xd the great]

7 hours ago, Pds314 said:

Ok I'm gonna submit two entries as well. I may have to wait until tomorrow to actually run the first match for real life interference reasons.

Are saturns allowed?

[Pds314]

10 hours ago, Xd the great said:

Are saturns allowed?

No. Only the stock engines.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Pds314

[Xd the great]

9 hours ago, Pds314 said:

No. Only the stock engines.

Well then I have to withdraw my FAR combat drone 4

And I updated my A-10 as well.

[Xd the great]

And another submission from me:

https://kerbalx.com/Xdthegreat/SU-47-FAR

A modified Su-47. What do you mean this is inspired by planes in the 1960s/70s?

Edited August 12, 2020 by Xd the great

[Pds314]

Sorry for the further delays. Mostly two things:

1. Not much time for KSP the past few days.

2. I'm having issues with Vessel Mover on 1.10. I may just have to teleport planes into position and correct orientation with lat/long coordinates using alt-f12 menu.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Pds314

[Xd the great]

47 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

2. I'm having issues with Vessel Mover on 1.10. I may just have to teleport planes into position and correct orientation with lat/long coordinates using alt-f12 menu.

Vessel mover has not been updated to 1.10. Yet.