[1.12.x] Waterfall - a framework for continuous, mesh-driven engine effects (October 9)

[Dr.Seuss]

You absolute Madlad. Waterfall is just gorgeous and I want to use it for everything, ever, but I'm not very smart and therefore the in-game editor appeals to me over directly fiddling about in JSON. However the Wiki doesn't yet have any documentation on the in-game editor, which is fine, I'm sure I can figure it out-- but I don't know how to open it. I realize this is a very silly question and I'm sorry to waste your time with it; unfortunately I exhausted the "consult to documentation" avenue and the "muck about in-game looking desperately for a button" avenue to no avail. So, I'd be super beyond grateful if someone would walk me through the basics of using the ingame editor

[Zorg]

9 hours ago, Dr.Seuss said:

You absolute Madlad. Waterfall is just gorgeous and I want to use it for everything, ever, but I'm not very smart and therefore the in-game editor appeals to me over directly fiddling about in JSON. However the Wiki doesn't yet have any documentation on the in-game editor, which is fine, I'm sure I can figure it out-- but I don't know how to open it. I realize this is a very silly question and I'm sorry to waste your time with it; unfortunately I exhausted the "consult to documentation" avenue and the "muck about in-game looking desperately for a button" avenue to no avail. So, I'd be super beyond grateful if someone would walk me through the basics of using the ingame editor

You first need to enable the editor inside waterfallsettings.cfg. Point 1 on the getting started page on the wiki  https://github.com/post-kerbin-mining-corporation/Waterfall/wiki/ModuleWaterfallFX

One you have taken care of that you can follow the rest of the steps, you cant start editing something until there is a basic config applied to the part in question.

You can of course build a series of effects from scratch or you can use the provided templates. Most of the included templates require 3 controllers atmosphereDepth, random and throttle. eg: https://github.com/post-kerbin-mining-corporation/WaterfallRestock/blob/995235d212d154459e56175eccfa6b31826bfc86/GameData/WaterfallRestock/Patches/Squad/LiquidEngineRE-J10.cfg#L70

Follow this page for some info on how to use templates. https://github.com/post-kerbin-mining-corporation/Waterfall/wiki/Templates

You can take any of the patches in the WaterfallRestock repository as good examples of how to do things using templates.

Once you have put in a template, all you need to do is open the in game editor in the flight scene, preview the plume by enabling the throttle and atmosphere controllers in the editor, then adjust the size and offset, copy them over to your cfg and you're done.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Zorg

[Nertea]

15 hours ago, VCamProbe said:

So for some reason the only engine this doesn't work on for me is the restock nerva nuclear engine? Like the whole plume is missing, (I have restock waterfall installed) All other engines work fine besides that one, though the little side thrusters show the plume but the main one is missing any ideas? Also my WaterfallFX editor button on toolbar vanished lol


Mod list - https://imgur.com/a/ClOI8OC

Ksp version - 1.11.9

Ksp.log - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mV5UhtH5TgNlmTU2Dor8sADFQwbfTRmf/view?usp=sharing

Player.log - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gm7XAICsO9pxokGT5jbcDTiZe7zeG4Iz/view?usp=sharing

 

Kerbal Atomics needs an update to solve this.

13 hours ago, Psycho_zs said:

I noticed a couple of visual issues with multiple engines: plume animations run in unison and overlaying plumes become way too bright.

It might be a good idea to randomize animation starting point. As for overlaying plumes, I don't know, is it possible to make plumes more transparent when there are a bunch of them close together?

Animation starting point is already randomized but might not be enough. I will keep looking into this for the next minor version update (.7.0)

For the blending, no, convince squad to switch KSP to a better color space.

[Starseeker]

On 3/9/2021 at 12:18 PM, Zorg said:

Indeed. Probably not the best example but you can see some of that here. Anyone making jet engine templates should get really good use out it too.

 

Ohhhh this looks absolutely incredible!

[HB Stratos]

I'm stuck with a bit of an issue.

I just installed the new version of waterfall after having done some edits to my patches and now the afterburning part of my panther effect refuses to work.

Also, the Waterfall Icon to open the editor on the toolbar doesn't show up either.

As far as I can tell there are no syntax isssues with my patch, you can download it here if anyone wants to have a look over it. 

Any help would be apprechiated!

[Nertea]

The editor is always disabled by default, you need to enable it. This setting in the config file does get overwritten of if you install a new version.

engineID now needs to be in the throttle controller block, not the main module as per the changelog.

[Serpatron]

On 3/9/2021 at 12:01 PM, Nertea said:

 

Waterfall 0.6.0

• Added 'thrusterTransformName' field to RCS controllers, which will allow them to map to unique ModuleRCSFX

Would anybody be able to give me an example on how to actually employ this on a part with multiple RCS modules? I've been having a tough time trying to figure it out on my own. 

[EnderKid2]

2 hours ago, Nertea said:

engineID now needs to be in the throttle controller block, not the main module as per the changelog.

like so?

CONTROLLER
    {
      engineID = AirBreathing
      name = throttle
      linkedTo = throttle
    }

[Dr.Seuss]

2 hours ago, Zorg said:

You first need to enable the editor inside waterfallsettings.cfg. Point 1 on the getting started page on the wiki

Thanks, dunno how I missed that-- RIP me. I've now successfully entered the "mucking about ingame desperately trying to figure out what all the little numbers mean" phase of my journey, and thanks to templates, I'm already seeing some degree of success. I'm generally trying to add waterfall effects to the stock engines that aren't covered in the "StockWaterfallEffects" package, (I'm as of yet not brave enough to try ReStock) so if I manage to yield something worthwhile I'll be sure to submit a pull and share the fruits of my, uh, "experimentation".

[Zorg]

3 hours ago, Serpatron said:

Would anybody be able to give me an example on how to actually employ this on a part with multiple RCS modules? I've been having a tough time trying to figure it out on my own. 

Create a new Waterfall module for each RCS module you have. Enter the thrusterTransformName from your ModuleRCSFX into a thrusterTransformName field inside the rcs controller and into the overrideParentTransform field inside the template.

Here's an example.

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/80422a3aab3452f9c7ed93d1df86140028fd68e7/Gamedata/Bluedog_DB/Compatibility/WaterfallFX/DeltaRCS.cfg#L2

 

ps make sure you have the proper running effects for each RCS module in the EFFECTS node (with sound only) so the sound works. Easy to forget that step for the second module.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Zorg

[biohazard15]

Quote

If you seriously want to have a productive discussion, you can go to the Waterfall thread and post your complaints and damnning screenshots there. Then we can work to address the issues, instead of complaining in people's threads.

Sure, will do.

1.11.1, latest BDB dev release wit its Waterfall, latest CryoEngines release.

Issue #1: Meshes don't mix well

Most evident on clustered vacuum engines. Like this Hecate:

Or this Centaur:

Or even better, this S-IV:

You can clearly see exhaust effects for each engine - something that shouldn't be happening. All exhaust plumes would mix and appear as one big plume. RealPlume handles this much, much better, IMO.

Somewhat related case: 

You can see RCS plume clip into fuel tank.

Issue #2: Meshes are hollow

This is the case of "looking where you shouldn't look" - inside the plume.

This LR-87 (Issue #1 is also present):

Or this RS-68 (Etna from CryoEngines behaves identically):

I'm not even sure how to call these. Bubbles? Balloons? Again, RealPlume works better here.

Issue #3: Let's call it "borderline".

Look at RS-68's bell:

You can clearly see the mesh - not some hazy form, but actual cone. This one is quite hard to see on screenshots and even on videos, you need to look at it in-game.

[SpaceFace545]

@biohazard15so you can either unistall waterfall and just use realplume if you dont like it or you can use an older version of realplume without the anti conflict config so that both operate at the same time

[HB Stratos]

22 hours ago, Nertea said:

The editor is always disabled by default, you need to enable it. This setting in the config file does get overwritten of if you install a new version.

engineID now needs to be in the throttle controller block, not the main module as per the changelog.

The editor is now visible again. And I fixed the engine Plume too, though the issue was different. Only the Module generated by Waterfall itself as an entire Module didn't work because the generated Module was missing the moduleID parameter.

Edit: The Generated Module also appears to be missing the gimbalX/Y controllers I had set up. Some Modifiers are in the wrong order too.

Edit2: The current version of Waterfall appears to generate the module correctly while the last version didn't

Edited March 14, 2021 by HB Stratos

[Serpatron]

16 hours ago, Zorg said:

Create a new Waterfall module for each RCS module you have. Enter the thrusterTransformName from your ModuleRCSFX into a thrusterTransformName field inside the rcs controller and into the overrideParentTransform field inside the template.

Here's an example.

https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/blob/80422a3aab3452f9c7ed93d1df86140028fd68e7/Gamedata/Bluedog_DB/Compatibility/WaterfallFX/DeltaRCS.cfg#L2

 

ps make sure you have the proper running effects for each RCS module in the EFFECTS node (with sound only) so the sound works. Easy to forget that step for the second module.

You're a lifesaver. Much appreciated!

[HB Stratos]

I think I found a bug too, when multiple lights are in the same module it is not possible to set different colors for both. Well technically you can, but if you edit the first color, then the second, and then go back to the first the color from the second is copied to the first and vice-versa. 

[Knight of St John]

55 minutes ago, HB Stratos said:

I think I found a bug too, when multiple lights are in the same module it is not possible to set different colors for both. Well technically you can, but if you edit the first color, then the second, and then go back to the first the color from the second is copied to the first and vice-versa. 

This has been fixed, and should be part of an upcoming release.

[Nertea]

3 hours ago, HB Stratos said:

The editor is now visible again. And I fixed the engine Plume too, though the issue was different. Only the Module generated by Waterfall itself as an entire Module didn't work because the generated Module was missing the moduleID parameter.

Edit: The Generated Module also appears to be missing the gimbalX/Y controllers I had set up. Some Modifiers are in the wrong order too.

Edit2: The current version of Waterfall appears to generate the module correctly while the last version didn't

Is edit2 the final (e.g. all those problems are fine in the release version)?

10 hours ago, SpaceFace545 said:

@biohazard15so you can either unistall waterfall and just use realplume if you dont like it or you can use an older version of realplume without the anti conflict config so that both operate at the same time

I specifically asked him to post his complaints here so we could look at investigating them. 

 

14 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

You can clearly see exhaust effects for each engine - something that shouldn't be happening. All exhaust plumes would mix and appear as one big plume. RealPlume handles this much, much better, IMO.

Definitely a limitation. I would contest that particle systems do this better. If you're trying to create discrete effect boundaries with them, the problem is the same, have witnessed this a lot when working with particles myself.

14 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

You can see RCS plume clip into fuel tank.

Also occurs with particles . For RCS in particular the feedback of this versus RP has been great. I have some improvement to mesh clipping that should come in 0.7 or later though. 

14 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

This is the case of "looking where you shouldn't look" - inside the plume.

We are actively working to improve the interaction of the plume with the bell from the back with what I think is some success. That being said, I can provide screenshots of times when particle plumes exhibit "don't look here" syndrome too. 

Spoiler

You can clearly see the mesh - not some hazy form, but actual cone. This one is quite hard to see on screenshots and even on videos, you need to look at it in-game.

I actually know what you're talking about and well, that's a feature I find attractive. we can generate these sharp-edged things that are quite common in a lot of sea-level plumes and we can do it at a very low performance threshold.

Fundamentally I hoped we could get some useful feedback when I asked, but this feels... nitpicky. I can fire up an install with some particle-based solution and demonstrate a bunch of edge cases that are handled very poorly by particles and very well by this mod. 

Waterfall is not perfect and it's still quite in development with new features added every couple of days. I built this mod to do things specifically difficult to do well with particles, and I'm very happy with how they turned out:

• Sea level shock cones
• High energy plumes in vacuum
• Very long plumes
• Large part count ships where the game engine chugs and spits out particles in chunks 

Particles do other things very well. The more 'flamey' an effect is, the harder it is to do well here, and the more continuous an effect is, the easier it is to do here. You should know that I have built quite a few very nice effects using particles for my various mods and I know some of them have been assimilated as seed effects into RealPlume. I do know what I'm doing when making this trade. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Nertea

[Nertea]

Waterfall 0.6.1

• Fixed light editor in UI overwriting light settings with last light's settings
• Minor performance improvements
• Fixed throttle being considered 'on' always with engines that have a minThrust specified
• Added new ramp up and ramp down optional config flags for throttle controllers
• New template updates from Zorg
  • Another alcolox template, alcolox-lower-2 (more accurate to Mercury redstone).
  • Revised alcolox-lower-1 (looked too nice to delete so its another alternative).
  • Revamped hydyne plume
  • Added hydrazine monoprop plume (only for v small engines, dervied from RCS plume).
  • Added Kerosene+Nitric acid, lower and upper (R12, kosmos 2I type).
  • Removed click when looping NFT engine sound loops.
  • Added thalox sustainer template
  • Slight tweaks to RCS template. (existing templates should be fine).

[wisdomsavingthrow]

Where does one pass on issues to the WaterfallRestock team? I've found a clipping issue with Restock's RV-105-A and the RCS plume  https://imgur.com/a/NjfXwf2

[Nertea]

8 minutes ago, wisdomsavingthrow said:

Where does one pass on issues to the WaterfallRestock team? I've found a clipping issue with Restock's RV-105-A and the RCS plume  https://imgur.com/a/NjfXwf2

I'm the team.

Is it just that one or all the blocks?

[HB Stratos]

13 hours ago, Nertea said:

Is edit2 the final (e.g. all those problems are fine in the release version)?

yes, the bug appears to be fixed in the most recent version

Is it currently possible to set up controllers that listen to ModuleAnimate... ? This would for example be useful for vtol engines or in my case for reverse thrust and engine heat.

Edited March 14, 2021 by HB Stratos

[Nertea]

59 minutes ago, HB Stratos said:

Is it currently possible to set up controllers that listen to ModuleAnimate... ? This would for example be useful for vtol engines or in my case for reverse thrust and engine heat.

Submit a feature request on GitHub

[Starhelperdude]

15 hours ago, Nertea said:

I'm the team.

that would be a great palpatine-master windu-senate meme but I can't make memes xD

[GuessingEveryDay]

8 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

that would be a great palpatine-master windu-senate meme but I can't make memes xD

I couldn't find a way to add pictures, but here you go!

[Starhelperdude]

2 minutes ago, GuessingEveryDay said:

I couldn't find a way to add pictures, but here you go!