A penny drops. Or is it a light bulb moment?

[jagfour]

Anyway, it doesn't matter what it is, I have a new and vastly improved way to progress through KSP in career mode.

The last time I played KSP was when 1.10 dropped. Starting a new career, I worked my way to 'purchasing' with science, the entire science tree. Then I stopped. I recon there was at least half the contents in the science tree that I never used.

It bugged me often since then. I have never used neon kit. Never, in all the time I have had KSP since 2012. Then the light bulb moment from out of the blue as to why I lost interest after obtaining a full science tree, and how to fix it.

I have never had a love of the contracts system in the game. I have used them to get free or easy money, but I give the finger to tourists and testing things in flight. But this is where the major changes could be made to the whole of the science tree. Testing parts. Or more accurately, gaining experience and knowledge of technology and progress of that technology.

Here is the way I feel, that the new Technological Knowledge (TK) Tree could work.

Any item in the tree could be subject to failure in use due mainly, to the knowledge or lack of, of that item. To gain knowledge of an item, you will need to use it, either in testing on the ground, or in flight. The thing is though, to gain sufficient knowledge of an item, could take many more hours to test an item on the ground as opposed to testing it in an atmosphere or on a journey to the Mun for instance. To be decided just how many hours of knowledge would be needed of an item in order to release either its successor or an improved or bigger item, such as a fuel tank.

The knowledge of an item would be displayed with the item in the tree with a knowledge bar, that fills as the required knowledge of an item is gained. As the knowledge bar fills, it has 2 effects. One being the improvement of the quality of the item , reducing to near zero its possible failure rate. But, and more importantly, when the bar becomes full, its successor will become available.

Now all that takes time. There are 2 other ways to reduce that time. Money and science. The knowledge, money and science (KMS) requirements for each item. Throwing resources at an item will always improve its reliability. How much money and/or science and just how many hours of knowledge of an item is needed, would need to be worked out by the Kerbals.

The difficulties of obtaining each item in the tree would vary greatly. For instance, a bigger fuel tank would be much easier to obtain than an improved drone. eg. KMS ratio of a bigger FT being 1:9:0 with a total resource level of 1000, or for a drone KMS being 3:4:3 with a total resource level of 20000.

This idea will completely change the way you obtain a part in the game as it would require you to physically use an item to obtain others.

There could be a requirement to gain knowledge from more than one item in order to get a technology upgrade. The options are endless as to the complexity of the new TK tree. KMS, ratios and resources required for an item could, to some extent, be randomised at the start of a new career, greatly changing the way the whole game plays out.

In conclusion, the science tree is replaced with a Technological knowledge tree. Each item in the tree being improved in quality by; time in use knowledge and/or money and/or science invested into it, using a KMS ratio. Each item will have a knowledge bar which shows progress towards releasing its successor and/or other related items.

Additional thoughts as to this idea as my thought processes develop

You could hover the mouse over a knowledge bar to get further info from those kerbals that matter. Early on in the development of an item you could get info from your chief scientist along the lines of 'I haven't got a clue what we need', and from your chief engineer something like 'I don't know enough, I need more time', he's crying as he says it. Further on into the development, your CS could say 'We need another 500. Just keep giving us more', or the engineer says 'I need another 50, I need another 50. Yeah, 50 should be enough'. But you might get someone else that appears from nowhere, the Chancellor of the bank of money. He could say something like, 'there's no more money, your on your own'. Or he could have had a good night with he's missus last night and say 'The chancellor has x amount of spare cash. You got 1 hour to splash it around before I change my mind'. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by jagfour
Improved understanding of the idea.

[723179]

22 hours ago, jagfour said:

Each item will have a knowledge bar which shows progress towards releasing its successor and/or other related items.

So rather than the knowledge tree we have now, it’d be more of a part web? 

[IanCanberra]

I think this would be a good addition. Also it might be that we could add disposal issues as well. Not all items are good for the kerbals when they are no longer being used.

[The Aziz]

Sooooo... Part failures? That will always be a mod territory.

The rest of the idea, maybe, it's one of many proposed ways how to improve the science aspect of the game.

[jagfour]

13 hours ago, 723179 said:

So rather than the knowledge tree we have now, it’d be more of a part web? 

Not sure what you are saying here. Isn't the current tree a part web?

 

12 hours ago, IanCanberra said:

I think this would be a good addition. Also it might be that we could add disposal issues as well. Not all items are good for the kerbals when they are no longer being used.

Ian, I don't think this has relevance to my idea. 

[jagfour]

11 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Sooooo... Part failures? That will always be a mod territory.

The rest of the idea, maybe, it's one of many proposed ways how to improve the science aspect of the game.

What is your point?

 

I have been computer gaming since Pong came into this world in the summer of '73. 20 years ago I was making world lap record times at 4 of 16 tracks in a racing game, Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 3 v1.0,  that as far as I am aware, were never beaten. I have got in a box in my loft games such as; the original Civilization, the original Railroad Tycoon, the first Silent service sub game, amongst dozens of other classics.

KSP is, and always will be, an all time classic. I want it stay as such, and as all things do, it can get even better. I have never, nor will I ever, use a mod. As far as I am concerned with mods, they are things to be tested by Kerbals, and if found satisfactory, would become part of the genuine finished product. 

The current science tree is too shallow, too easy to get complete ownership off. My idea, clearly redefines how to get that next part in a more realistic manner. Any engineer knows that you need to test things. Any scientist knows that you need to invent things. And any government knows, It costs a bloody fortune to do any of that!

Incidentally, a new idea regarding government funds. A Kerbin government could stick their nose into how the Kerbins direction in space travel goes. They could tell the Kerbins to develop a part or parts, but give a lot of money to do so, or other such interference like, we want a base built on Eve, here's the money. This is the kind of diversity that made games like Civ great.

[The Aziz]

7 hours ago, jagfour said:

 

I have been computer gaming since Pong(...)

I have no idea what this essay has to do with my post, but I am going to repeat myself. Part failures, which is part of your idea, won't be a thing in stock game, as long as current Dev crew has something to say about it. Or so I've heard.

And repeat again, the rest of your idea/suggestion is fine, as many others.

[Mikenike]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:55 PM, jagfour said:

Any item in the tree could be subject to failure in use due mainly, to the knowledge or lack of, of that item. To gain knowledge of an item, you will need to use it, either in testing on the ground, or in flight. The thing is though, to gain sufficient knowledge of an item, could take many more hours to test an item on the ground as opposed to testing it in an atmosphere or on a journey to the Mun for instance. To be decided just how many hours of knowledge would be needed of an item in order to release either its successor or an improved or bigger item, such as a fuel tank.

 

So esentially an improved version of the part, almost like a pack a punched Gun in COD Zombies, or a Mk2 weapon in GTAO? I would like that a lot, make them be more efficient or something like that.

8 hours ago, jagfour said:

the original Railroad Tycoon, the first Silent service sub game,

Wow. I have GTA2, Railroad Tycoon 2, Police Quest, the old Doom, Red Storm Rising. I loved Silent Service, it was just fun to me. I have gone on to play Cold Waters, which is a newer game that is a spirtual successor to the RSR game. I still play Doom and Railroad Tycoon, albeit I have had to play Doom on a more modern computer, a Windows 7. I play all the other games on my old Windows XP.

[jagfour]

[snip]

Mikenike

To clarify, the more knowledge you have of an item, the better its reliability. I have 27 years experience in the aircraft servicing industry. Believe me, an aircraft is almost constantly being repaired, modded and updated in its life. Especially military ones. An improved version of any part is going to be the next item in the TK tree.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Spricigo]

If your goal was to looks in needs of a reality check, congratulation you got it.

 

On 12/8/2020 at 4:16 AM, jagfour said:

I have been computer gaming since Pong came into this world in the summer of '73.

...

 I have got in a box in my loft games such as; the original Civilization, the original Railroad Tycoon, the first Silent service sub game, amongst dozens of other classics.

...

I have never, nor will I ever, use a mod. As far as I am concerned with mods, they are things to be tested by Kerbals, and if found satisfactory, would become part of the genuine finished product. 

 

As far as the devs are concerned modding is part of the "genuine finished product". And mos are quite popular with the player base. As a result, some things remain as mod territory, if nothing else because as soon it become stock people will mod it out.

[snip]

On 12/8/2020 at 4:16 AM, jagfour said:

My idea, clearly redefines..

Clearly redefine nothing. Every single aspect of it is already implemented as mod long ago. [snip]

As we can see, this forum are full of ideas.  Most of which are barely noticed for a brief time before being buried by more recent ideas and forgotten.  [snip]

Edited December 9, 2020 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Lewie]

Is there a mod for this? I guess you could say RP-1, but that’s really hardcore...

This is a pretty interesting idea, really.

[Snark]

Some content has been redacted and/or removed, due to folks making various personal remarks about each other.

Folks, lively debate is fine-- but please don't let things become heated to the point of making personal remarks.

And please remember that this is the "Suggestions" subforum, meaning that literally everything posted here is an opinion, pretty much by definition.  I assume we all know what an "opinion" is, but it would appear that perhaps a refresher is in order:

People have different opinions.  And that's okay.  (For one thing, if we all had the same opinion, then the forum would consist of people just sitting around agreeing with each other and would be a lot less interesting, don't you think?)  Because of this, it means that any opinion you post, people are going to disagree with you.  And that's okay, too.

Therefore, a brief guide to what is or isn't okay:

It is okay to...

• address the post (not the poster), i.e. respond to the idea they're proposing.  E.g.,
• say "I like / agree with <opinion> because <reasons>", or words to that effect.
• say "I dislike / disagree with <opinion> because <reasons>", or words to that effect.
• say "I like <different idea> instead, because <reasons>", or words to that effect.

It is not okay to...

• make personal remarks (i.e. don't address the poster)
• insult people
• take out your anger on people because you're annoyed that they disagree with you
• tell other people what they should or shouldn't do

Please remember that everyone has a right to their opinion, and nobody is in a position to tell anyone else that "my opinion is better than yours".  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, because they're simply stating what they like.  Arguing about opinions is as silly as arguing which flavor of ice cream is better, vanilla or chocolate.  (Chocolate.)

Please remember that we're all pals here, and that we have come together as a community because we all really, really like KSP, and therefore are passionate about it, which is why our opinions are strong.  We agree that we care about KSP, even though we disagree about aspects of what we like.  Let's hold on to that, and remember to keep things friendly, and not make it personal, please.

Unlocking the thread.  I trust we can comport ourselves like civil adults?  Thank you.

[Corona688]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:16 AM, jagfour said:

What is your point?

Remember, this video game's target audience is 12-year-olds!  When their crude but painstakingly built ship fails for no better reason than the RNG hates them today, they will throw their controller at the screen, leave a zero-star review, and return the game.

Too much verisimilitude can be a bad thing.  Not everyone wants to play "Apollo 13 Investigation Committee".

Edited December 9, 2020 by Corona688

[jastrone]

seems a bit too complicated. also you dont say much about earning money.

i do still think a rewamp on the money/science system would be nice

[Spricigo]

4 hours ago, Lewie said:

Is there a mod for this? I guess you could say RP-1, but that’s really hardcore...

This is a pretty interesting idea, really.

Not a single mod. But we have mods for part failure, part upgrade, alternative part progression, alternative progression and so on.  There is a lot that can be customized by mods.

[Lewie]

1 hour ago, Spricigo said:

Not a single mod. But we have mods for part failure, part upgrade, alternative part progression, alternative progression and so on.  There is a lot that can be customized by mods.

Yeah...I’ve been thinking of switching to 1.11 when it cones out, and once it does it’ll be nice to use Dang it! For this...

Although I guess kis allows for this, but it’s really jank at times.

[jagfour]

4 hours ago, Corona688 said:

Remember, this video game's target audience is 12-year-olds!  When their crude but painstakingly built ship fails for no better reason than the RNG hates them today, they will throw their controller at the screen, leave a zero-star review, and return the game.

Too much verisimilitude can be a bad thing.  Not everyone wants to play "Apollo 13 Investigation Committee".

The idea improving reliability of an item snuck in here. It was never part of my original idea, and I have never had a need for failures. So, regard failures as not an issue.

1 hour ago, jastrone said:

seems a bit too complicated. also you dont say much about earning money.

i do still think a rewamp on the money/science system would be nice

There is no need to change anything about how money is earned. Yes my idea involves additional needs or uses for money, but like I said in my original post, its up to the kerbals to make such adjustments. I mean, they would have to work out just how much of each of the KMS requirements each item required.

[723179]

On 12/8/2020 at 2:48 AM, jagfour said:

Not sure what you are saying here. Isn't the current tree a part web?

I was thinking of it more as a web in the sense that you unlock similar parts one at a time, (say, specifically. reliant to swivel, rather than basic to general rocketry) so that if I wanted to I could get directly to high isp liquid fuel engines, before messing with srbs

[jagfour]

16 hours ago, 723179 said:

I was thinking of it more as a web in the sense that you unlock similar parts one at a time, (say, specifically. reliant to swivel, rather than basic to general rocketry) so that if I wanted to I could get directly to high isp liquid fuel engines, before messing with srbs

Seven hundred and twenty three thousand, one hundred and seventy nine, any changes to the TK tree would be made by the Kerbals. My idea is how to gain access to items, using the KMS resources, along with ratios and quantitative total of those resources.