The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x

[GoSlash27]

End of the first hour:

I'm going to hoover up science to launch my probes using this little guy...

There's all sorts of science in and around the KSC. It isn't worth much, but it's quick and it's enough to unlock some helpful stuff.

Best,

-Slashy

[dvader]

On 7/6/2021 at 1:55 PM, Rakaydos said:

What about conops that track "depleted" jetpacks, even though the game does not, and sends replacements up to manage a particular mission?

It should be allowed since you can actually buy extra jet packs. So, if you bring 2 extra jet packs, you can refill twice (or if you send a resupply mission etc).

Both the stowable jetpack and the EVA fuel cylinders make the automatic refill seem like an accidental oversight. But, maybe they left it in by choice since removing it might break a lot of old save games.

[Jacke]

On 7/6/2021 at 11:30 AM, dvader said:

I just logged in  hoping to find a good reason to play KSP again and noticed this ladder discussion.

Good to see you back, @dvader!

 

On 7/6/2021 at 11:30 AM, dvader said:

As a ladder riding aficionado I so far like the changes even if the Kerbals hand strength seem very overpowered.

As the Caveman Ladder SME, I have a question for you.

What happens to a Kerbal on a ladder during regular and physic time warps?

[dvader]

24 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Good to see you back, @dvader!

As the Caveman Ladder SME, I have a question for you.

What happens to a Kerbal on a ladder during regular and physic time warps?

It is good to be back . I'm trying to find some reason to visit and admire all the revamped planets but I'm also looking for a reason to use all the new stuff like ground based science or non-Kerbin assembly.

About ladders. At least in previous versions, physics warp worked as usual. Most often it worked fine but sometimes you'd get oscillations or perhaps you'd bounce into something and get thrown off.

Regular warp is tricky since you start to drift but there is no collision detection so you may ghost through your craft. If that happens and you stop the warp you could either vanish or get thrown away at incredible speed. You could make sure to always drift away from the craft by getting off the ladder in the right direction. You also had to take into account how the orbit changed when dropping the ladder, at least for interplanetary trips with year long warps. I *think* I chose to drop the ladder in the normal or radial directions to minimize the change to the orbital period but I can't remember the details anymore.

 

 

 

[Reactordrone]

The lack of ap/pe markers is a bit annoying now. Ended up bring a Mun flyby back with a periapsis of 65km. That took a while to bring down so I've stuck a stayputnik in a low orbit to help me eyeball my altitude.

[dvader]

5 hours ago, Reactordrone said:

The lack of ap/pe markers is a bit annoying now. Ended up bring a Mun flyby back with a periapsis of 65km. That took a while to bring down so I've stuck a stayputnik in a low orbit to help me eyeball my altitude.

I just noticed that yesterday! I thought it was just me, perhaps a bug or a mod that had not uninstalled cleanly. It is a bit strange to remove the markers since the Ap/Pe info is still available in the new "Orbit info" window in the bottom left. It just makes things more annoying. The information is still there but I can't use the map or the tracking station to see it. It won't make rendezvous harder but definitively much more annoying because of the extra switching to first tracking station and then the target craft just to get the orbit info (and then back). It is also a bit annoying not to visually see when I get close to Ap but instead being forced to compare the Ap number in the bottom left with the altitude meter. (I just started a moderate caveman to try out the new science stuff and other changes. The ground based science could make EVA trips and ladder rides a lot more valuable and perhaps be a big deal for NCD)

[Rakaydos]

I'm afraid to try NCD. While I enjoy planning extreme missions using caveman limitations, I prefer LATE caveman to early caveman, and NCD seems like it would trap you in the early game for much longer. Plus, different reentry physics or something?

[Blaarkies]

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

I'm afraid to try NCD. While I enjoy planning extreme missions using caveman limitations, I prefer LATE caveman to early caveman, and NCD seems like it would trap you in the early game for much longer. Plus, different reentry physics or something?

The re-entry heating hasn't bothered me yet, i just yeet probes back from Minmus to Kerbin with a 30km Pe and they survive just fine. I think a simple heatshield(empty)  on a crew capsule will be more than enough protection.

Once you get a Terrier contract to hold on to (and land on Minmus biomes), you will be on a fast pace towards late caveman. The next step seems to be proper crewed landings which needs more than an 18t launch for me

 

3 hours ago, dvader said:

I just noticed that yesterday! I thought it was just me, perhaps a bug or a mod that had not uninstalled cleanly. It is a bit strange to remove the markers since the Ap/Pe info is still available in the new "Orbit info" window in the bottom left. It just makes things more annoying. The information is still there but I can't use the map or the tracking station to see it. It won't make rendezvous harder but definitively much more annoying because of the extra switching to first tracking station and then the target craft just to get the orbit info (and then back). It is also a bit annoying not to visually see when I get close to Ap but instead being forced to compare the Ap number in the bottom left with the altitude meter. (I just started a moderate caveman to try out the new science stuff and other changes. The ground based science could make EVA trips and ladder rides a lot more valuable and perhaps be a big deal for NCD)

I got this idea of continuing on the NCD save after completion, maybe without upgrading the launchpad/runway so that you have to make do with the 18t limit, but you still get to unlock better tech?
Not sure how that will play out though

[Rakaydos]

8 minutes ago, Blaarkies said:

The re-entry heating hasn't bothered me yet, i just yeet probes back from Minmus to Kerbin with a 30km Pe and they survive just fine. I think a simple heatshield(empty)  on a crew capsule will be more than enough protection.

Once you get a Terrier contract to hold on to (and land on Minmus biomes), you will be on a fast pace towards late caveman. The next step seems to be proper crewed landings which needs more than an 18t launch for me

Caveman Orbital rendevous is easy for me, so you saw my 4-launch minmus biome hopper above.

Didnt get to any ladder riding in that run.

[fourfa]

Max reentry heating is no big deal, I play that way at all times.  It mainly affects SSTO launch profiles, not capsules, so very little difference in Caveman.

In my experience all progression in NCD is slower to be sure - but where you really spend time with slower progress is in the late game where you've unlocked most of the critical techs but run out of easy science.  Early game, each new mission type gets you new unlocks so it feels like there's always progress

[dvader]

I finished my new caveman run by sending Bob to Minmus and noticed a couple of things.

• Ap/Pe is not visible for Kerbals floating in space. Only crafts. This makes rendezvous by computing the orbital period very annoying since you have to manually determine Ap/Pe/orbital period for the Kerbal by going around the orbit once and checking min/max altitude... If anyone could figure out a better way to determine Ap/Pe, please let me know.
• I probably have to take back my opinion about refueling jetpack. If you want to deploy surface experiments, you need to remove the jetpack and put it in the ship while deploying experiments. This refuels the jetpack... so it can't always be avoided. You could perhaps keep track of fuel levels manually but it is easy to forget and it would be annoying (I didn't realise it had been refuelled until I pulled it out again).
• The built in Alarm Clock can be used for quick switching between crafts. Just add a manual alarm. This was a great improvement

[JAFO]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:24 PM, Reactordrone said:

The lack of ap/pe markers is a bit annoying now.

21 hours ago, dvader said:

I just noticed that yesterday! I thought it was just me, perhaps a bug or a mod that had not uninstalled cleanly.

5 hours ago, dvader said:

I finished my new caveman run by sending Bob to Minmus and noticed a couple of things.

• Ap/Pe is not visible for Kerbals floating in space. Only crafts. This makes rendezvous by computing the orbital period very annoying since you have to manually determine Ap/Pe/orbital period for the Kerbal by going around the orbit once and checking min/max altitude... If anyone could figure out a better way to determine Ap/Pe, please let me know.

According to @Deddly, it's (sort of) kind of a bug. But one that can be fixed by telling Steam to verify the game files. So it would appear there's a file that sometimes fails to be updated when Steam upgrades the game.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by JAFO

[dvader]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

According to @Deddly, it's (sort of) kind of a bug. But one that can be fixed by telling Steam to verify the game files. So it would appear there's a file that sometimes fails to be updated when Steam upgrades the game.

Steam reloaded 161 files that failed the verification but unfortunately that didn't solve the problem. I might try a full reinstall later.

I finished the caveman moderate attempt. Full story here: https://imgur.com/a/9bn6pAm

Highlights:

I tried flying with Bob on a ladder which was just fine. But I had forgot how bad I am at landing so I ended up dumping Bob in the ocean and landing the Kerbal way with a parachute.

Spoiler

I also sent Bob to space to try out the new EVA science experiment. I really like the new animations. I wish they would add more of them...

Spoiler

Then I sent Bob toward Minmus. The new Kerbin textures are really nice. I am so glad Squad decided to give the game some extra polish before KSP 2. It did not go as planned. I had forgotten to bring an antenna so it turned into a rescue mission instead.

Spoiler

Here's ghosting in action.

Spoiler

I was lucky though and Bob hit Minmus SoI and I could use his jetpack to get into orbit. Rendezvous with the rescue ship was annoying since I could not get a read out of Bobs Ap/Pe and had to manually check by orbiting once. But, eventually I could do EVA science experiments around and on Minmus. The ground based experiments failed though since I had only brought one solar panel...

Spoiler

 

 

When I sent the science back I got 1371.1 science and finished the tech tree. But, Bob was still stuck on Minmus with not enough solar panels so I sent a bonus just to get the ground based experiments working.

Spoiler

 

21 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

I got this idea of continuing on the NCD save after completion, maybe without upgrading the launchpad/runway so that you have to make do with the 18t limit, but you still get to unlock better tech?

Not sure how that will play out though

That would be interesting. What if you can only upgrade the Science Center but nothing else? Maybe you also have to research every available tech before upgrading the science center. This way you finish plain caveman first. I might try that in Moderate. In NCD it would be very... interesting...

[Rakaydos]

Ok, I'm going to give it a shot.

Edit: wait, 1 tweak...

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Rakaydos

[Rakaydos]

First NCD run died  going for the reaching space contract. Got up to 90 kilometers, and didnt survive coming back down, with a rocket worth 99% of my saved funds.

[Blaarkies]

5 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

First NCD run died  going for the reaching space contract. Got up to 90 kilometers, and didnt survive coming back down, with a rocket worth 99% of my saved funds.

(I wish the forums had simple emoji reactions to posts, but a full reply is the only way)

I hope it wasn't too many hours into the save game? That sucks , but I guess now you know about more things to look out for. I'd like to hear how you solve/prevent this in the next run

[MinimalMinmus]

Welcome to NCD difficulty! Hope you like losing!

[Rakaydos]

Had a NCD run end when I unlocked and bought the thermomiter before "first launch", and didnt have the funds for a capsule,chute and srb. That "buy your own parts" restriction is nasty.

 

Edit: a few more false starts. Landing a hammer-boosted capsule, and exceeding the speed limit with the science roller.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Rakaydos

[GoSlash27]

Hour 2 update:

660 science points to go.

I just launched my first Munar probe. I'll send a follow-up in a half an hour, meanwhile I'll continue farming science from Kerbin.

Best,

-Slashy

[Rakaydos]

NCD update: Got a nice series of test and haul parachute, or test flea at the launch pad, contracts which I combined with science landings in Shores, Water, and Grassland, along with the launchpad science itself, getting up to 5 science.

With the thermomiter in hand, built a science roller. And blew ip up with Jeb inside. But Bob survived, and I had enough money from those testing contracts to try again. Val and Bob got runway, SPH, Main hangar, Astronaut complex, flagpole, administration, R&D, R&D main, and Corner lab science, enough to get liquid engines. After all my previous failures, I'm saving it here.

[GoSlash27]

Hour 3 report was delayed because I had a probe dangling by a parachute and couldn't leave it. Anyway...

554 points to go.

I built this guy to explore around Kerbin's biomes, but I can't really use it properly until morning.

It'll be difficult to gather any more science in the dark, so I may save my next update for end of day 1.

Best,

-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Hour 4: No change in the science points. I'm about to recover the last of my science from space around Kerbin.

The sun should rise soon, and I'll be able to get back to exploring Kerbin's biomes.

Best,

-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Hour 5 report:

I have 420 science points left to collect. Nice

-Slashy

[Blaarkies]

After finally picking up the Green monolith on Kerbin, I learned that they unlock tech regardless of the R&D building's level! 

This means that a caveman can unlock most caveman tech nodes with Kerbin system science, then pickup the 3 Grenoliths in the Kerbin SOI and possibly obtain the Mobile Processing Lab to just farm everything else 
Obviously they can chicken out of 270 by letting it unlock 3x 90 tech nodes, which was my plan all along...but now this curve ball really complicates that.

All tier 5 nodes have to be unlocked to complete the challenge im guessing, but what about the usage of T6 parts?

[GoSlash27]

On 1/10/2021 at 11:15 PM, JAFO said:

Abhorrent fear of technology as primitive as can be.

This would strongly suggest tier 5 and below tech only.

Best,

-Slashy