kerbiloid Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Lisias said: What may be not that good as you think. I don't think it's good, but it's a reality. Edited June 4, 2021 by kerbiloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 On 5/31/2021 at 7:40 AM, Black Dog said: I am looking forward for a fresh, clean game where lots of previous mod-only-features are available in stock and therefore hopefully more stable and always up to date. This doesn't mean I don't want to see any mods - hello no. But it would be nice to have a stable base with lots of features already existing so mods can concentrate on more important issues like Parts, Explosions and more planets/systems to visit instead of fixing shortcomings in the code. KSP 2 should come with its own form of CKAN. KSP actively encourages mods yet it makes people jump through hoops to get mods sorted and working, and once you've done that, chances are you're stuck on that version of KSP because one or two mods are no longer being updated and much of your infrastructure depends on them. TLDR: KSP 2 should be more robust when it comes to mods dependent on old features and it would help if KSP 2 managed mods on its own without needing the fans to step in and provide these basic needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 1 hour ago, K^2 said: Oh, yeah, you don't want Workshop to become the only way to load mods, but I still think Workshop support would be a great addition to whatever system they have in mind. Even if it limits the kinds of mods you can share through Workshop for security reasons. Workshop is fantastic for the simple things, so crafts, part mods using stock assets and patches could easily be there. The dangerous stuff should definitely be in a box with a large "you waive any rights to cry if you do this" sticker in top lel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: TLDR: KSP 2 should be more robust when it comes to mods dependent on old features and it would help if KSP 2 managed mods on its own without needing the fans to step in and provide these basic needs. I'm very reticent on relying on Walled Gardens to provide community support for modding. Amateurs will not cope with it. Professionals will charge for it. Walled Gardens are expensive. I would prefer a DLC centric model instead for providing new content. If you are going to rely on professionals for doing the work, DLCs are a proven and safer option IMHO. You keep the money and the creative control in-house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 34 minutes ago, Lisias said: I'm very reticent on relying on Walled Gardens to provide community support for modding. Amateurs will not cope with it. Professionals will charge for it. Walled Gardens are expensive. I would prefer a DLC centric model instead for providing new content. If you are going to rely on professionals for doing the work, DLCs are a proven and safer option IMHO. You keep the money and the creative control in-house. Oh i'm pretty sure we're getting DLC no matter what, and mods will require it at some point. 5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: KSP 2 should come with its own form of CKAN. KSP actively encourages mods yet it makes people jump through hoops to get mods sorted and working, and once you've done that, chances are you're stuck on that version of KSP because one or two mods are no longer being updated and much of your infrastructure depends on them. TLDR: KSP 2 should be more robust when it comes to mods dependent on old features and it would help if KSP 2 managed mods on its own without needing the fans to step in and provide these basic needs. To be honest there's honestly no real solution to this, if you force mods to have a default level of compliance then you limit the possibilities capable of being performed by them. Which then encourages mods to step around these systems entirely, ah la KSP original. People will absolutely write custom code and inject it at load time if the need is there, and there's nothing KSP2 can do to make it any more compatible with versions released afterwards. As for managing mods on their own, i really hope you're just talking about an ingame mod manager lel. Because even a robust conflict resolution/exception handling system will require user intervention at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattinoz Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 5:34 AM, Lisias said: On an ideal world, the Community should provide such tools. The current mess is due a lack of consensus about how things should be done, a somewhat lack of rigor from the present tools on serving the few things there're a consensus about how it should be done and, most of all, the existent utter barrier on allowing a third player on this field, what would provide the needed incentive to improve the current status quo. The world isn't ideal indeed for the reasons noted there won't be one, they won't all build off a standard, there will be one on one platform that is popular but doesn't carry to others. We'll have the same barriers to regular but curious players getting to use and enjoy the game extended by mods. I think the Base game can do a lot of things better and provide a base line that could still be extended. Like some many target areas for mods providing the baseline means modders can extend instead of first creating a baseline and hope it gets picked up by other modders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 3:11 AM, Incarnation of Chaos said: As for managing mods on their own, i really hope you're just talking about an ingame mod manager lel. Yeah, or at least a standalone one that comes with the base game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, mattinoz said: The world isn't ideal indeed for the reasons noted there won't be one, they won't all build off a standard, there will be one on one platform that is popular but doesn't carry to others. We'll have the same barriers to regular but curious players getting to use and enjoy the game extended by mods. . The problem is relying on Walled Gardens Every time a Walled Garden was created (by the game developers or by third parties), we had a shift on the balance of power - being "popular" gives you influence about decisions that, invariably, leads to a lockdown on the distribution chain. With unavoidable dispersion of the Scene, the first thing one do as have enough power is to use it to get rid of the competition, that so leads to bit rotting on the Scene, that so kills the Community. Unless you have a firm grip on a very profitable niche (as X-Plane did on aircraft pilot certification), I don't see how this going to work on the long run. Granted, if you don't expect it to work on the long run and are willing to maximize the revenue on the short run, it will not matter anyway... Quote I think the Base game can do a lot of things better and provide a base line that could still be extended. Like some many target areas for mods providing the baseline means modders can extend instead of first creating a baseline and hope it gets picked up by other modders. The problem is not having a baseline. The problem is using a position of power to force your hand on bad standards and practices - what's , frankly, it was what happened here in the past few years. Ad hoc consensus is achieved by allowing people finding their way on the mess and then letting users to pick the ones that work best. Technical leadership from the developers also help, moreover when they are open minded to recognize when some crazy dude came from nowhere have a better idea. KSP1's history is littered of examples of all of that. 'Authority' is not a tool to solve your problems, it's a way to coordinate the process of solving your problems. You still need the skills, the working force and the will to have the problems tackled down, and without them 'Authority' makes things even worse (another lesson to be learnt from the past). Edited June 6, 2021 by Lisias Got rid of a Forum Editor bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco T stand-up guy Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 On 6/5/2021 at 7:34 AM, Lisias said: This is not going to happen. The only mod I use ATM is MechJeb and I don't use all of it but the Maneuver Planner is pretty much essential and is one of the tools that should have been in game as standard from the word go. I note that 1.12 has just introduced a limited version of it (I was over-joyed at it finally being done only to find that its so limited that it's almost useless). On 6/5/2021 at 7:34 AM, Lisias said: One size does not fits all As far as necessary tools go it pretty much does. A spade is a spade, after all, because it simply cannot be anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missingno200 Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) No. Higher risk of leaks, (the following is sourced from a since privated video and may be entirely inaccurate) and from the debacle where T2 threatened to sue anyone for spoiling the game for others past launch day(quietly walked back), I doubt PD wants to let any major details leak, especially since there is supposedly a story to go with KSP 2. Edited July 2, 2021 by Missingno200 Updated since the source is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 22 minutes ago, Missingno200 said: No. Higher risk of leaks, and from the debacle where T2 threatened to sue anyone for spoiling the game for others past launch day(quietly walked back), I doubt PD wants to let any major details leak, especially since there is supposedly a story to go with KSP 2. I think I need a source for basically every single thing you said in this post, it's incredibly all news and everything unheard of here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missingno200 Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, Master39 said: I think I need a source for basically every single thing you said in this post, it's incredibly all news and everything unheard of here. I remember it being discussed not too long ago by someone, but I can't remember who. I think (emphasis on THINK) it may have been ShadowZone. It's 5 AM so I'll be looking for my source later, but I swear I heard about it around 2 weeks ago. I think it came from a ToS that probably leaked. Can't you use SteamDB to look at ToS'? The story bit was extrapolated by this info so its probably wishful thinking, but I can't think of much else that would warrant such measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, Missingno200 said: I remember it being discussed not too long ago by someone, but I can't remember who. I think (emphasis on THINK) it may have been ShadowZone. It's 5 AM so I'll be looking for my source later, but I swear I heard about it around 2 weeks ago. I think it came from a ToS that probably leaked. Can't you use SteamDB to look at ToS'? The story bit was extrapolated by this info so its probably wishful thinking, but I can't think of much else that would warrant such measures. I don't think I'll chase the source of an earsay from a single user. If anyone was being threatened with a lawsuit by T2 for a KSP2 leak it would be first page material, and not only on this forum, people like Shreier would jump on a story like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missingno200 Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, Master39 said: I don't think I'll chase the source of an earsay from a single user. If anyone was being threatened with a lawsuit by T2 for a KSP2 leak it would be first page material, and not only on this forum, people like Shreier would jump on a story like this. It wasn't a KSP 2 leak that was the threat, it was something in a legal document you'd have to agree to, in order to play KSP 2. That being said, I found the source in my history, and it is now a privated video, so it was probably all false. Take that as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said: A spade is a spade, after all, because it simply cannot be anything else. Worst metaphor possible. You don't use a Toledo Salamanca to do the job of a Katakana. — post edit -- Worst counter-metaphor ever! A false cognate was triggered on my mind, "espada" (sword) sounds pretty much as spade, and… Well. Anyway… The counter-argument stands. There're different kinds of spades - for gardening, for construction, you name it. Spoiler Edited July 3, 2021 by Lisias whoops.. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnypunny Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 interesting concept. i doubt it will happen given the closed development model we've seen so far. would be cool tho, especially with something like an n-body gravitation mod (principia in ksp1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Missingno200 said: it was something in a legal document you'd have to agree to, in order to play KSP 2. An NDA? Those are standard for any beta tester since the concept of a beta tester existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missingno200 Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, Master39 said: An NDA? Those are standard for any beta tester since the concept of a beta tester existed. I don't think so. The way the video went, from memory, it sounded more like it was a whole claus added to the ToS. Said ToS was copied from KSP. Shouldn't really entertain it though, like I said the original video was privated, kind of removing credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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