Corona Proof of alien life?!

[Arugela]

Has anyone looked at the possibility of corona and it's predecessors coming from somewhere more alien.

Does it coincide with anything odd like samples from an asteroid or from mars or space. Or from that thing Russia opened up in the antarctic? Have we looked into the more exotic possible sources?

Edited January 2, 2022 by Arugela

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 minutes ago, Arugela said:

corona and it's predecessors coming from somewhere more alien

Can you explain this?  I'm not understanding what you are asking.

 

Corona of the sun?  No.

Corona beer? (grin)

[cubinator]

There are plenty of coronaviruses. They're related to the rest of the viruses. There's nothing about them that suggests they're from anywhere but Earth.

The one currently causing so much trouble came from bats in China. Bat viruses give us a lot of trouble because bats have a higher body temperature than humans, so their viruses can better survive our fevers.

[Arugela]

Like I said. The opening of those underground oceans in the antarctic or more alien like mars samples or asteroid samples. Assuming anything could survive those. Or anything else odd that might not normally be considered.

How old are corona viruses?

Edited January 2, 2022 by Arugela

[cubinator]

5 minutes ago, Arugela said:

How old are corona viruses?

At least 8000 years, with similar related viruses going back 55 million years. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus) They seem to be well-fit in the evolutionary tree as we understand it.

Edited January 2, 2022 by cubinator

[DDE]

I'm susprised we didn't run across this topic earlier.

52 minutes ago, Arugela said:

Have we looked into the more exotic possible sources?

This is ultimately something science has an aversion to, mostly because it's usually unnecessary. Like preciding human-compatible coronaviridae, this one appears to have leaked over after circulating within an animal species, in this case a subset of bats in a Chinese mine - like SHC014, or RaTG13, the latter of which is 96% similar, and is what accused by naysayers to be the virus subjected to gain-of-functiom research in Wuhan before leaking into the public. Surveys in Indonesia have also uncovered a basketful of extremely similar coronoviridae.

So at this point you're proposing that a huge range of species are of an extraterrestrial origin, or that their oldest common ancestor was (current estimates for coronoviridae vary from 55 thousand to something like 463 million years ago). Wild.

52 minutes ago, Arugela said:

space. Or from that thing Russia opened up in the antarctic?

 

33 minutes ago, Arugela said:

The opening of those underground oceans in the antarctic

Investigation of Lake Vostok has failed to produce anything particularly exotic. As per at least some of the DNA research, its microbiology is not entirely isolated; given the mobility of the surrounding ice, no scary virus with a taste for humans would be able to remain sealed there.

Just some extremophiles, the usual muck biota, and a potential subspecies species of Antarctic rock cod.

Edited January 2, 2022 by DDE

[tater]

The main animal reservoir of coronviruses is apparently bats.

Might be why Vit D insufficiency is common in the very worst outcomes (like over 95% of poor outcomes are in deficient patients) since bats don't moderate immune response with Vit D—since they don't go out in the sun.

Course cats and deer are just as infected with the current new cold as people <shrug>.

 

[HebaruSan]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html

Quote

On porous surfaces, studies report inability to detect viable virus within minutes to hours; on non-porous surfaces, viable virus can be detected for days to weeks.

[...]

Data from surface survival studies indicate that a 99% reduction in infectious SARS-CoV-2 and other coronaviruses can be expected under typical indoor environmental conditions within 3 days (72 hours) on common non-porous surfaces like stainless steel, plastic, and glass

[...]

In fact, laboratory studies try to optimize the recovery of viruses from surfaces (e.g., purposefully swabbing the surface multiple times or soaking the contaminated surface in viral transport medium before swabbing). When accounting for both surface survival data and real-world transmission factors, the risk of fomite transmission after a person with COVID-19 has been in an indoor space is minor after 3 days (72 hours), regardless of when it was last cleaned.

SARS-CoV-2 does not last very long outside of a host; all the virus particles that have been infecting people lately are of recent manufacture by other infected organisms. If you tried to seed a frozen Antarctic lake, a Mars sample, or an asteroid with SARS-CoV-2, it would be inert and non-infectious within a few days at most. So a theory of the virus's origin must include a long unbroken chain of infector-infectee relationships going back through many many organisms, and you would have to posit some kind of ecosystem of living organisms in your proposed places of origin to keep making more and spreading it, which are in short supply in Mars samples and asteroids. Even for the frozen Antarctic lake, which would at least have the advantage of being on Earth and therefore possibly having some organisms in it, you would need to find those organisms, establish that SARS-CoV-2 can infect them, and explain how it got from there to Wuhan, China rather than infecting some closer location first.

At that point you would just be insisting on this theory because you want it to be true or want to say wacky things, not because it is at all plausible that it might be real.

[Arugela]

Actually, I was assuming sars was recent since the 2000's. which would make it less odd if it started up from recent activity. That is why I asked how old it was. I thought it had started up with the sars stuff only a few decades ago.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Arugela

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

22 minutes ago, Arugela said:

Actually, I was assuming sars was recent since the 2000's. which would make it less odd if it started up from recent activity. That is why I asked how old it was. I thought it had started up with the sars stuff only a few decades ago.

That's when we first noticed them affecting humans.  You should look into SARS and MERS.  They're naturally occurring earth viruses that jumped

[NFUN]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

That's when we first noticed them affecting humans.  You should look into SARS and MERS.  They're naturally occurring earth viruses that jumped

we first noticed them affecting humans in like the 1960s

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

10 minutes ago, NFUN said:

we first noticed them affecting humans in like the 1960s

Thanks - wasn't aware of that

[tater]

31 minutes ago, NFUN said:

we first noticed them affecting humans in like the 1960s

SARS and MERS? Thought they were 2003/2012 respectively (as IDed outbreaks).

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, tater said:

SARS and MERS? Thought they were 2003/2012 respectively (as IDed outbreaks).

They were - I'm assuming he referred to some other types of Coronavirus 

[jimmymcgoochie]

Alien viruses wouldn’t work on Earth.

Let’s assume this virus uses a ribonucleic acid as its genetic material- this could be DNA as for most cellular organisms and some viruses, or RNA as for the other viruses (COVID-19 is an RNA virus IIRC), or it could be some sort of weird other ribonucleic molecule that doesn’t exist on Earth at all, in which case the virus can’t replicate and dies. 

Let’s assume the virus uses RNA- what type? Positive strand, negative strand, single stranded, double stranded, some strange alternative arrangement with 3 or more strands interwoven? RNA is an incredibly diverse molecule used in a staggering variety of ways in living organisms. If the virus uses an unusual type of RNA then it might not work with the bio molecular machinery available here on Earth, in which case the virus can’t replicate and dies.

Let’s assume the virus uses positive single stranded RNA like COVID-19; the protein-coding sequences run from the 5’ end to the 3’ end and can be directly transcribed into protein. Or can it? Here on Earth ribonucleic acids typically uses Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, Thymine and Uracil bases (DNA uses Thymine, but in most cases RNA uses Uracil instead), but this alien virus might use something different that doesn’t exist here, so it can’t replicate its genome and dies.

Let’s assume the virus uses ACGU like a regular positive sense RNA virus. Now the virus needs to actually replicate its genome. It can use the available RNA bases floating around inside a human cell, and it contains a gene coding for an RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RDRP) that can create a negative sense copy of its positive sense genome, then make positive sense copies of the negative sense copies.

Or can it? The RNA a might have the right structure and the right bases in it, but those bases have to actually contain the right code to get turned into proteins in a ribosome (a large complex of RNA and proteins where proteins get made). There are a few bits before the coding region to help a ribosome grab on to the RNA, a start code to let it know where to begin and get the ball rolling, a sequence of bases arranged in triplets which each code for a different amino acid, potentially some complicated stuff like splice sites and non-coding regions, and finally a stop codon to tell the ribosome to let go. This alien virus needs to use exactly the right set of codes or its genome is a load of gibberish- it probably won’t make proteins, or if it does they’ll be garbled garbage that do nothing. No polymerases are made so the virus can’t replicate its genome and dies.

There are twenty or so amino acids used by most organisms (excluding rare ones containing e.g. selenium) and 64 possible combinations of triplets using 4 bases. There are three stop codons, one start codon (methionine) and the other 60 are split unevenly between the other amino acids; the exact distribution varies between species so a sequence that works in a human might not work in, say, a mouse or a fruit fly. This hypothetical alien virus would therefore have to have at least twenty different codons which all matched the correct amino acids or start/stop codons for the target organism to correctly produce its encoded proteins and function- if it can’t do that, the virus can’t replicate and dies.

Besides the RDRP, a virus needs to code for proteins that form its viral capsid, the outer shell of the viral particle, and the internal structural gubbins to wrap up its genome and hold the thing together. Those outer proteins are responsible for latching onto receptors on target cells and getting the contents of the virus into said cells, so they have to be structurally and biochemically compatible- like a key in a lock. If they aren’t, the virus can’t get into a cell, can’t replicate and dies.

So to sum up- is it more likely that an alien virus happens to land on Earth, happens to have a positive sense single strand RNA genome that happens to use the same bases as RNA does on Earth, uses the same translation markers and amino acid codons as on Earth, coding for the same amino acids as on Earth, for proteins that will function to allow the virus to replicate on Earth; or for one of the many existing viruses on Earth that can already do all those things to swap some genome with another existing virus to make a new, recombinant virus with some new combination of abilities like, for example, the ability to infect humans more effectively.

Recombinant viruses are nothing new- the “Spanish” flu in the latter years of World War 1 was a recombinant influenza virus, as were bird and swine flu more recently; as far as I know, so were SARS and MERS which are both coronaviruses too. In fact, the existence of SARS and MERS meant that a lot of details were already known about this type of virus, meaning when COVID-19 came along research teams had some information to go on and could build on that to get multiple vaccines out in a remarkably short period of time.

A totally novel virus would be a completely different story- this hypothetical alien virus that just so happened to be able to function normally on Earth and infect humans would be completely new, probably code for proteins that had radically different sequences and structures to those in terrestrial viruses and would probably be unaffected by antiviral drugs- or it could have a fatal weakness to paracetamol, or the pH could be wrong for its charged amino acids, or it might need a hundred times the lethal dose of potassium to even break out of its capsid in the first place.

 

[tater]

11 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

They were - I'm assuming he referred to some other types of Coronavirus 

Ah, coronaviruses have been around for ages. There is thought that the deadly "flu pandemic" in the 1890s was actually a coronavirus. It's one we all know, since we have all had it multiple times, it's one of the HCoVs that causes common colds.

[NFUN]

57 minutes ago, tater said:

Ah, coronaviruses have been around for ages. There is thought that the deadly "flu pandemic" in the 1890s was actually a coronavirus. It's one we all know, since we have all had it multiple times, it's one of the HCoVs that causes common colds.

yeah they've definitely been around forever, just not positively identified as such and without described morphology until later

[Arugela]

6 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Can you explain this?  I'm not understanding what you are asking.

 

Corona of the sun?  No.

Corona beer? (grin)

Considering there are connection to the last idea and china. Has anyone checked that out. Maybe one of the workers got it. At least for backtracing! ><

They were building a factory in china before or after. Some of the contractors were mexican or american... I don't remember. There was stuff going on at the time.

Also does the testing for corona tell easily how long someone had it. Did they do backtracing with all the people they have tested to see far back it could go. I've always wondered if it went back even farther than november/december of 2019 is it?

I had a family member with cancer at the time and was in odd pain. Around august/september 2019. I've wondered if they had it. They had some symptoms I thought were odd at the time. It could have obviously been the cancer, but I've since wondered about. But I don't know if there is a way this could be known. Would any other common testing tell us now after the fact that would have occurred? This person was cremated after death.

Actually have they checked this sort of thing out in general to make sure it doesn't go back farther? By checking data going back a few months from when it started. Assuming anything would allow this to be found out.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Arugela

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

25 minutes ago, Arugela said:

china

The current virus originated in humans in China.  Likely came from bats.  There was research on bat coronavirus being conducted in Wuhan prior to the outbreak. 

There is no way to prove (or disprove at this point) whether it leaked from the lab - so it kinda doesn't matter. 

It's here - we've got it and we need to deal with it. 

 

[sevenperforce]

3 hours ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

Recombinant viruses are nothing new- the “Spanish” flu in the latter years of World War 1 was a recombinant influenza virus, as were bird and swine flu more recently; as far as I know, so were SARS and MERS which are both coronaviruses too. In fact, the existence of SARS and MERS meant that a lot of details were already known about this type of virus, meaning when COVID-19 came along research teams had some information to go on and could build on that to get multiple vaccines out in a remarkably short period of time.

Bingo. It literally only took a single weekend -- three days -- for the Moderna vaccine to be synthesized, because they already had so much experience creating mRNA vaccines for SARS/MERS. We never needed those vaccines because neither SARS nor MERS were particularly contagious, but it gave us practice with coronaviruses. And so it was very nearly plug-and-play with the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. 

3 hours ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

A totally novel virus would be a completely different story- this hypothetical alien virus that just so happened to be able to function normally on Earth and infect humans would be completely new, probably code for proteins that had radically different sequences and structures to those in terrestrial viruses and would probably be unaffected by antiviral drugs- or it could have a fatal weakness to paracetamol, or the pH could be wrong for its charged amino acids, or it might need a hundred times the lethal dose of potassium to even break out of its capsid in the first place.

An extraterrestrial alien virus would either wipe out literally all DNA-based life in a matter of weeks or it would never infect a single host. There would be no middle ground.

[MKI]

16 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Bingo. It literally only took a single weekend -- three days -- for the Moderna vaccine to be synthesized, because they already had so much experience creating mRNA vaccines for SARS/MERS. We never needed those vaccines because neither SARS nor MERS were particularly contagious, but it gave us practice with coronaviruses. And so it was very nearly plug-and-play with the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. 

To expand on this, would it be possible to technically create a vaccine for all the coronaviruses this way? I believe I've heard some news stories about a "super vaccine" that can protect against all types of coronaviruses, using the same technology as the COVID vaccines. Plug and play indeed.

 

18 hours ago, Arugela said:

I had a family member with cancer at the time and was in odd pain. Around august/september 2019. I've wondered if they had it. They had some symptoms I thought were odd at the time. It could have obviously been the cancer, but I've since wondered about. But I don't know if there is a way this could be known. Would any other common testing tell us now after the fact that would have occurred? This person was cremated after death.

The simplest explanation in this scenario is probably the most likely. IE their cancer was affecting them. 

Its true that its possible COVID-19 was spreading before December 2019 due to more recent studies via secondary data points such as increased hospitalizations, and records of increase in "flu-like" symptoms before December 2019. However, its also possible this was just increased flu rates as-it-was. The other issue about this is no one is sampling for COVID-19 before December 2019, so while its possible it also is "lost to time", there is no way to know these things beyond guesses. 

 

My significant other's father was down and out for a week sick in December 2019, and were joked it was COVID. However at the time no one really guessed/assumed it was already in the US at the time. Looking back its possible it was actually COVID, but no one else got sick, and doctors treated him with antibiotics as an infection, rather than looked into it as COVID. It could be a coincident, which again is probably lost due to time even with antibody testing, which can show if someone has previous infection and thus has the antibodies to fight against covid.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 10:47 AM, Arugela said:

Have we looked into the more exotic possible sources?

Anything is possible, but many things are unlikely. For COVID to be of alien origin, to many things need to go perfectly right. Where-as only a few things need to occur for a bat to human "jump" of a coronavirus to occur. 

With many conspiracy theories, there is an idea that "big events must have big explanations" fallacy. The idea that big and disruptive events must have big origins isn't always true. COVID is a big deal, but its origins don't have to be. It might seem like since COVID is such a big disruption, and history changing event, that its must also origins must also be exceptional, except that isn't automatically true.

The current explanations are "boring", and simple because that really is all it takes for it to occur. 

 

Finally, when it comes to aliens. It isn't aliens, until its aliens ;D

 

[K^2]

We have pretty good tools to study genetic lineages. Some of it is direct, comparing given genome to a now vast databases of known genomes, and some are statistical based on mutation models. There have been some amazing breakthroughs in evolutionary taxonomy in the past decade thanks to these tools, so we know they work, and we know they can help us identify unexpected sources of genes in both complex organisms and viruses.

And there has been a lot of eyes on genome of COVID-19. Not because anyone seriously thought it'd be alien in origin, but because people have seriously considered possibility that it has been lab-made. Or at least, lab-enhanced. So people have looked for any genome that didn't look natural in origin, and found nothing. So we can be pretty sure that this is just a natural series of mutation of an existing coronavirus that led us here.

Likewise, while there is a lot to go through, and things can be missed, people have been looking for any unexpected genetic sequences and so far, nothing that is definitively not terrestrial in origin has been found. There are always other organisms with shared sequences and it's turtles all the way down.

21 hours ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

Alien viruses wouldn’t work on Earth.

I wouldn't be that categorical about it. There are two things that could make it a remote possibility. First, we still don't know the origin of first prokaryotes. Extraterrestrial origin is still on the table. Or, vice versa, it is possible that life from Earth has been seeded to other celestial bodies. We know that conditions for bacteria getting ejected on some rock and surviving a ride to another planet are possible. And since all of Earth's life shares the transcription method, it's likely that life on another planet that shares origin with Earth's would as well. Now, there are some variations in codone to aminoacid assignment across all of life, but it's almost shockingly uniform overall. While the fact that viruses crossing species having a lot of benefits for horizontal gene transfer is likely part of why, I don't know if there is any reason to believe that alien life with common origin wouldn't have mostly the same codone sequences. Moreover, terrestrial viruses do have ways of getting around some anticodones missing in host species, so compatibility at mRNA/tRNA level would be plausible at the very least.

Second is that we have a lot of viruses that bring their own machinery into the host. A lot of it tends to be host-specific, like reverse transcriptase and such, but we also have examples of giant viruses that basically carry much of their own transcription machinery to be compatible with hosts that shouldn't be otherwise. Something with mRNA payload to get a few basic enzymes going that kickstarts transcription of the virus payload despite host's transcription system not being fully compatible is entirely within realms of possible, and apparently, at least partially has evolved in some viruses here on Earth for some reason.

I don't think we can fully exclude possibility of some dormant living cells on Mars, for example, containing viruses capable of reproducing inside at least some terrestrial cells if they share the same origin. Moreover, if these exist, they could travel to Earth or some other bodies of the Solar system, meaning these could come from virtually anywhere. Although, in a similar vein, a re-introduction of something that originally came from Earth and was frozen out in space for a few hundred million years is more likely.

And yeah, of course, something like a coronavirus definitely isn't it. But if some sort of a virus from another world does manage to survive and reproduce in some sort of terrestrial host, a co-infection can easily lead to gene transfer to mundane, terrestrial viruses. Again, reverse transcriptase exists, and mRNA can be transcribed back into DNA or RNA to be incorporated into terrestrial virus even if original payload was incompatible. So while an exceptionally remote possibility, I don't think we can ever fully exclude this from possible sources. Until, that is, we examine the genome and find absolutely nothing unusual in terms of origin about it, as has been the case so far. I just don't think it's a stupid thing to check for. And yes, if we ever do find something "alien" in a virus genome, my first guess is still going to be a lab somewhere as a far more likely explanation.

17 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

An extraterrestrial alien virus would either wipe out literally all DNA-based life in a matter of weeks or it would never infect a single host. There would be no middle ground.

This part I completely disagree with. Even if an alien virus is capable of reproducing in terrestrial hosts, it's not adapted to them. There is such a multitude of viruses on this planet that while certain organisms have specific defenses against specific types of viruses, if we had no generic defenses that have to be bypassed with very specific attacks, all cellular life would be doomed. Human immune system specifically is exctremely good at detecting pathogens it cannot possibly be familiar with. Response to these isn't as rapid or reliable as against known pathogens, but it is still very, very good. And it's only because terrestrial viruses are specifically evolved to combat immune system of the host that they ever get by. An alien virus wouldn't have that advantage and would, in all likelihood, be easily picked up by our immune systems.

If some sort of infection of terrestrial host by alien virus were to happen, I would bet money to donuts that the organism infected would be single-cell organism or some very simple multicellular organism without a dedicated immune system. It's only recombinants with terrestrial viruses that might emerge from this that would have a chance of posing a threat to humans, and I would argue, that it's not going to be drastically different from genes crossing from any other host of viruses not infecting humans into ones that do. It's still something entirely new for our immune system to deal with either way. So while it can be a source of a pandemic, it's not going to be any worse than other new viruses we get, especially, these that cross species like COVID-19 did.

Edited January 3, 2022 by K^2

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, MKI said:

create a vaccine for all the coronaviruses this way

Walter Reed (Army) has a super-vaccine ready and in-the works (meaning awaiting human trials) that apparently works against Original Covid, all variants, SARS, MERS and some flu bugs.  If factual, it would be a wonder-drug.

US Army Creates Single Vaccine Against All COVID & SARS Variants, Researchers Say - Defense One

It would also not be profitable for the vaccine manufacturers, if the population gets a one-and-done solution.  Much better to keep people on something expensive that they can dole out every year or 4-5 months (even better) for ever and ever and ever.

52 minutes ago, K^2 said:

If some sort of infection of terrestrial host by alien virus were to happen, I would bet money to donuts that the organism infected would be single-cell organism or some very simple multicellular organism without a dedicated immune system. It's only recombinants with terrestrial viruses that might emerge from this that would have a chance of posing a threat to humans, and I would argue, that it's not going to be drastically different from genes crossing from any other host of viruses not infecting humans into ones that do. It's still something entirely new for our immune system to deal with either way. So while it can be a source of a pandemic, it's not going to be any worse than other new viruses we get, especially, these that cross species like COVID-19 did.

I'm with this interpretation. 

The concept that some pretty sophisticated things can happen from small sets of simple rules largely describes the immune system.

I'll agree with @sevenperforce that if something so alien that it does not have RNA (or any DNA / precursors) were to get onto the planet it likely would have no effect - but disagree that there's little to no middle ground if the alien bug did have the ability to infect terrestrial life.  Primarily because - if it plays by the rules enough to infect something, its gotta play by the rules enough to be defeated as well.

Also, viruses that tend to be 'too successful' at killing hosts lose because its not in their 'interest' to die out with the host; instead they want to keep hosts active and alive and shedding.

Edited January 3, 2022 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[MKI]

29 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Also, viruses that tend to be 'too successful' at killing hosts lose because its not in their 'interest' to die out with the host; instead they want to keep hosts active and alive and shedding

I was thinking back on this. Wouldn't this mean the "ultimate virus" is a virus that kills no one, and does whatever it can to get its host help it reproduce? This would also mean, the "ultimate virus" would benefit if its host actually lived more often. To the point its possible we could only live with the virus within us... making us a virus!!! Agent Smith was right!!

 

 

[K^2]

30 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Also, viruses that tend to be 'too successful' at killing hosts lose because its not in their 'interest' to die out with the host; instead they want to keep hosts active and alive and shedding.

Yeah, but it's something that evolves over time, not something that a virus will be able to turn on and off instantly. That's why the most deadly viruses are typically the ones that cross species. We aren't their target host, so they never evolved to keep us alive and merely sneezing. Of course, there are also viruses and parasites where killing the host is part of spread strategy. Rabies, zombie fungus, various parasites in fish...

Point is, if we were to get an alien virus that could successfully infect human host directly, which is honestly in sci-fi territory already, in my opinion, I can't think of any reason why it would be specifically deadly or not deadly. At that point, it's pretty much up to random interactions with completely new environment to that virus, some of which human body will correct for, and others it will not. This can be anything ranging from asymptomatic to the worst pandemic ever. But we are much more likely to get a virus like that from another species, one whose immune system is similar enough to ours. Like bats, or something. Case in point.